keyGo terms update

[MrJeeves]

From the 27 March, keyGo's terms will be updated.

• The incomplete journey charge will be increased to £50
• You can only update your online journeys up to 48 hours after you traveled (previously this was "until the Wednesday after you traveled")

Interestingly, they have clarified that the incomplete journey charge is...

still less than the maximum fare for a journey that could have been made on the keyGo network.

They have also more explicitly stated their position in relation to multiple incomplete journeys:

If there are more than three incomplete journeys in a 28-day period, your account will be monitored, and you may be contacted to discuss the reasons for the incomplete journeys. In some cases, your keyGo account may be cancelled.

 

[superkopite]

Was this emailed to you, or did you see it on the website?

 

[MrJeeves]

Was this emailed to you, or did you see it on the website?

Got two emails about it: one on 11 March, one today.

I've attached them below.

 

[Hadders]

I am very disatisfield with KeyGo.

I've used it a few times between Stevenage and London. I've had incomplete journeys due to touch ins and touch outs not recording correctly (despite ticket gates opening to let me through). I've had touch ins recorded as touch outs, and touch outs recorded as touch ins. On one occasion I've also had a railcard discount not applied.

Conversely, I've used Oyster PAYG across London for over 20 years and never, every had a mis-recorded touch in or out or an incomplete journey.

 

[MrJeeves]

I've had issues, but nothing that hasn't been sorted either by myself via my account or a brief 10 minute call to GTR (who, despite their phone system, have basically no hold time for calls).

I've never had a railcard discount not applied... It would be very interesting to hear what journey that was and if you were offered any explanation as to why it wasn't applied.

In fact the only major "issue" I have had was where I made a fairly substantial journey and was charged a one-stop single instead.

Map below: red is my journeys; blue is the fare charged.



I know I saw your correspondence with GTR about keyGo not recognising taps a few days ago, and am quite surprised at their blame-shifting and blunt response. The entire GTR CS staff have always been extremely friendly, accommodating, and proactive at resolving even the smallest of issues for me.

 

[Hadders]

I am still in communication with GTR about the railcard discount. I agree they are normally pretty good at answering the phone but the quality of the customer service staff does vary.

 

[JonathanH]

Conversely, I've used Oyster PAYG across London for over 20 years and never, every had a mis-recorded touch in or out or an incomplete journey.

This is a strong argument for trying to keep PAYG as simple as possible with the single leg pricing applicable on the Oyster / Contactless network.

 

[Hadders]

This is a strong argument for trying to keep PAYG as simple as possible with the single leg pricing applicable on the Oyster / Contactless network.

If the system cannot cope with a journey from Stevenage to Kings Cross and returning from Finsbury Park to Stevenage it isn't fit for purpose. This is not exactly a complicated journey.

I touched in at Stevenage and the Gates opened to let me thorugh. Touched out at Kings Cross. Outward journey was 'Stevenage to missing touch'
On the return I touched in at Finsbury Park and touched out at Stevenage. Return journey was recorded as 'Missing touch to FInsbury Park'.

Phoned GTR to get them to correct the 'missing touches' and then a couple of days later saw I'd been charged an undiscounted fare. Phoned them up to get them to fix it, and had to chase them again today as it's still not done.

This isn't the only time either. Missing touches, touches the wrong way round (which presumably could be an issue if inspected on the train), and three phone calls to resolve one journey is not good enough.

 

[MrJeeves]

Crikey... I only use keyGo south of London so haven't had the joys of trying the routes you mention.

I definitely agree it's not fit for purpose for your routes at the very least.

WRT the "which presumably could be an issue if inspected on the train", it should be ok. The card stores tap data itself and the barriers will correctly update the smartcard's transient ticket. The issue lies between the gatelines themselves and reporting that tap data back to GTR. Inspections shouldn't result in any issues.

three phone calls to resolve one journey is not good enough

Definitely not. At that point, I'd be writing a very sternly worded email to their customer services and, hopefully, receiving compensation for your multiple attempts at getting this resolved to no avail.

 

[Ediswan]

Crikey... I only use keyGo south of London so haven't had the joys of trying the routes you mention.

Is there any chance the implementations north and south of the river are subtly different ?

 

[Hadders]

I asked GTR to explain what had gone wrong. This was their reply.

Dear Hadders,

Thank you for getting in touch about your recent journeys with taps not recorded at Stevenage and Kings Cross.

If the issue at the stations is intermittent and your taps are opening the gates, it's likely the barriers are being set incorrectly. Unfortunately there isn't much we can do about that beyond reminding the staff of the settings they should be using on the barriers.

Please accept my sincere apologies for any inconvenience this caused.

Kind regards
GTR

 

[Wallsendmag]

I asked GTR to explain what had gone wrong. This was their reply.

By the sounds of it Cubic have a problem recording the taps

 

[Richardr]

It sounds like a specific problem at Stevenage.

I've not had any issues with it using it from St Albans City either southward or northward, beyond it not being properly operational in the upper platforms at St Pancras when, like this weekend, there was no use of the lower Thameslink platforms. In such a case the system has been able to autofill a location.

 

[paul1609]

Ive used it pretty widely in Sussex and Up to town including the buses. Never had an issue.
I once had an email about an incomplete journey on Greater Anglia when Id bought a Day Return at Ipswich on it. I suspect it was because there had been an on train inspection but it had resolved itself before I got on line.

 

[Benjwri]

This is a strong argument for trying to keep PAYG as simple as possible with the single leg pricing applicable on the Oyster / Contactless network

But the issue here is unrecorded taps not the complexity. You can make it as simple as you like but if it doesn’t record taps it still won’t work.

 

[Hadders]

It sounds like a specific problem at Stevenage.

I've not had any issues with it using it from St Albans City either southward or northward, beyond it not being properly operational in the upper platforms at St Pancras when, like this weekend, there was no use of the lower Thameslink platforms. In such a case the system has been able to autofill a location.

I think the issue is at Finsbury Park as this seems to be a common factor (I had another issue which involved Finsbury Park).

 

[KatieLouLou]

It sounds like a specific problem at Stevenage.

I've not had any issues with it using it from St Albans City either southward or northward, beyond it not being properly operational in the upper platforms at St Pancras when, like this weekend, there was no use of the lower Thameslink platforms. In such a case the system has been able to autofill a location.

it is more likely a specific issue at Kings Cross, which after about 6 months of correspondence with GTR does now appear to be fixed - well my taps are recording again anyway. Finsbury Park has always appeared to have issues, particularly tapping on the standalone readers by the stairs up from the underground. Indeed in the early days I think the specific advice from GTR was not to use KeyGo if switching to/from underground there.

Interestingly, on two occasions, an on train inspection raised no issues, despite no entry tap at Kings Cross being recorded.

 

[SAPhil]

It sounds like a specific problem at Stevenage.

I've not had any issues with it using it from St Albans City either southward or northward, beyond it not being properly operational in the upper platforms at St Pancras when, like this weekend, there was no use of the lower Thameslink platforms. In such a case the system has been able to autofill a location.

I've had emails regarding an incomplete touch on two occasions at St Albans. Both times they were for journeys that started on one day and finished on another (i.e. after midnight). I had noticed both of these prior to receiving the emails but was unable to correct them myself. I guess they have some issues with midnight!

 

[MrJeeves]

Interestingly, on two occasions, an on train inspection raised no issues, despite no entry tap at Kings Cross being recorded.

As I stated above in response to Hadders:

WRT the "which presumably could be an issue if inspected on the train", it should be ok. The card stores tap data itself and the barriers will correctly update the smartcard's transient ticket. The issue lies between the gatelines themselves and reporting that tap data back to GTR. Inspections shouldn't result in any issues.

 

[Capvermell]

In the last few days I have received two emails from Southern telling me that they are now automating the increased £50 charge for incomplete journeys if you don't tap in or out somewhere and saying that's ok as £50 is still less than the most expensive journey you can take with Key GO on their network (which clearly must be peak hour with no railcard and longer distance).

Although I like the idea of Key Go in principle I find massive issues with it such as its network area being smaller than all the stations GTR even runs trains to and it inexplicably covering some SouthWestern run stations like Wimbledon but not others similarly close to London Terminuses like Putney and I also find their standalone card readers at unmanned stations like Ockley don't work in a reliable way and quite often give Seek Assistance messages due to double tap problems that occur all too easily when just trying to tap out (it seems to be tapping out rather than tapping in that causes the double tap problem). So I think this email from Southern is likely to make me stop using Key Go almost completely. The only time I can see using it rather than using a paper ticket or pre buying a ticket and loading it to my The Key card is where I am running late for a train and I can tap in a second on a Key card reader whereas a ticket machine purchase can take between 1 to 2 minutes to complete (or more if there is a queue for it). But even then I am worried about the possible conflict between pre bought tickets on my Key card and Key Go journeys. Also a system that doesn't cover all the stations that GTR trains call at such as Fratton and Portsmouth Harbour (where you must have a pre loaded ticket on The Key instead) is just bonkers and useless. Also its all too easy to forget to tap out at Ockley with no barriers when you are on your own and no one else is tapping out and all too easy at Victoria not to tap In for the 2325 train to Ockley when the barriers are always open by that time of day, I am in a hurry for the train and have not programmed myself to tap unless the barriers are closed and I have to.

If I use Key Go (which I do comparatively rarely) I currently get regular emails from Southern about missing taps and asking me to add them but are we saying that they will now just charge me £50 instead of sending those emails.

All in all it strikes me that Southern/GTR is shooting itself in the foot by trying to penalise people financially for using a system that is already hugely problematic because it doesn't even cover all stations that GTR trains themselves make calls at. All this at a time where Uber Travel is now offering 10% back in Uber Cash on buying Southern and other GTR tickets through their App, albeit they still have massive teething issues like not covering London Overground stations as destinations (which are covered by GTR ticket machine) and wrongly trying to sell a return journey as two more expensive single journeys in various situations. And I can also still buy tickets from Uber Travel as physical paper tickets I can pick up from the station ticket machine and so not have any forgotten tap problems with.

Am I the only person who feels this way about Southern's new automated £50 charge for failing to tap in or out with Key Go.

 

[Alex365Dash]

I find massive issues with it such as its network area being smaller than all the stations GTR even runs trains to and it inexplicably covering some SouthWestern run stations like Wimbledon but not others similarly close to London Terminuses like Putney

Wimbledon is served by Thameslink whilst Putney is not served by any GTR brands. KeyGo can only be used on GTR, with the exception of Redhill - Dorking Deepdene on GWR.

Also a system that doesn't cover all the stations that GTR trains call at such as Fratton and Portsmouth Harbour (where you must have a pre loaded ticket on The Key instead) is just bonkers and useless.

Last I recall, singles and returns to these stations from the Southern network are (for the most part at least) not enabled for ITSO fulfilment anyway.

Also its all too easy to forget to tap out at Ockley with no barriers when you are on your own and no one else is tapping out and all too easy at Victoria not to tap In for the 2325 train to Ockley when the barriers are always open by that time of day, I am in a hurry for the train and have not programmed myself to tap unless the barriers are closed and I have to.

It's just a routine you need to develop - stations like Isleworth have the same problem with Oyster.

Am I the only person who feels this way about Southern's new automated £50 charge for failing to tap in or out with Key Go.

KeyGo is prone to mistakes, both from the user's side (forgetting to touch in/out) and the system's side (the back office simply not picking up touches). I understand inflation exists, but more than doubling the incomplete journey charge is unreasonable and if this is GTR's way of introducing an additional revenue protection measure, they'd be better off just checking tickets more regularly.

 

[paul1609]

Ive never really had any problems with Keygo despite being a early adopter. I agree that it is annoying that it has still not been rolled out to the outer extremities of the GTR system. The £50 incomplete charge is understandable when a Bexhill to South London Metro station cheap day return is approaching that price. I don't really understand the objection to it if you are a legitimate user of the system. You have to forget to tap out and then ignore the email about the incomplete journey to be charged it. Its simple to go online and complete the journey.

 

[Capvermell]

KeyGo is prone to mistakes, both from the user's side (forgetting to touch in/out) and the system's side (the back office simply not picking up touches). I understand inflation exists, but more than doubling the incomplete journey charge is unreasonable and if this is GTR's way of introducing an additional revenue protection measure, they'd be better off just checking tickets more regularly.

The other one that really bugs me is that you can't look up your tap record history live in real time on the Key Go part of your Southern website account but only a day or so later after the tapping data has finally trundled its way through to GTR's central computers (which is half of the 48 or so hours they are now giving you to report a missing tap etc). Yet if you have a problem like a frequent double tap issue trying to tap out at Ockley where you get Journey Completed immediately changing in to Seek Assistance before you have taken your card away from the CUBIC reader (there is no one at Ockley to seek assistance from and I doubt staff at manned stations can help with this either) the moment you want to log in to your Key Go account and modify or update any faulty taps or check the tap record for the apparent double tap is at that moment in time.

As I see it the only benefit of Key Go is being able to buy your ticket quickly in a second or so if you arrive at the station close to the time of departure of your train (bearing in mind that at Ockley trains can arrive at the platform on the other side of the underpass that go up to Victoria 3 or so minutes before departure on the current ludicrously generous timetable that then sees them sitting at Dorking for five minutes or so before they can move on to Boxhill & Westhumble) but there are a large number of disbenefits including the journey history being wiped out after just a few weeks (there is no possible reason for this) and the huge danger of now being aggressively charged a £50 penalty for missing or faulty taps that you can only modify for 48 hours and where the number of times you can modify missing taps or double taps is limited to 48 hours, possibly now with no reminder emails of incomplete journeys before that deadline expires.

None of these things happen with a paper ticket so why should I use Key Go when it also doesn't even cover journeys to all stations served by GTR (Southern) trains such as Fratton, Portsmouth & Southsea and Portsmouth Harbour that I quite regularly travel to from Ockley? Also unlike Uber Travel it doesn't give me a 10% discount for buying my ticket by using it and saving them the cost of staff in booking offices or maintaining big expensive paper ticket machines that may be periodically raided (especially at unmanned stations like Ockley) for the cash takings they currently hold.

 

[MrJeeves]

which is half of the 48 or so hours they are now giving you to report a missing tap etc

It'll be 48 hours from the end of service (4:30am).

The reason you can't view it in real time, as far as I'm aware, are the integrations with Metrobus, which only report touch data after buses return to depot, and that the journey history isn't really "live", but more a best guess of the overall touches that day. The system calculates your most likely route based on your touches for the whole day rather than live.

I've had half my touches in one of the days take a full extra 24h to appear this week, which initially didn't result in an incomplete journey but being charged a single instead of a return ticket (which has happened before due to their own failures, then my correction of the missing taps was added to by the synchronised taps later which then created a new incomplete journey...).

I think viewing touches live would actually cause more worry since if they can't already manage to sync taps successfully within 24h, what hope do they have in syncing them live?

 

[paul1609]

The other one that really bugs me is that you can't look up your tap record history live in real time on the Key Go part of your Southern website account but only a day or so later after the tapping data has finally trundled its way through to GTR's central computers (which is half of the 48 or so hours they are now giving you to report a missing tap etc). Yet if you have a problem like a frequent double tap issue trying to tap out at Ockley where you get Journey Completed immediately changing in to Seek Assistance before you have taken your card away from the CUBIC reader (there is no one at Ockley to seek assistance from and I doubt staff at manned stations can help with this either) the moment you want to log in to your Key Go account and modify or update any faulty taps or check the tap record for the apparent double tap is at that moment in time.

As I see it the only benefit of Key Go is being able to buy your ticket quickly in a second or so if you arrive at the station close to the time of departure of your train (bearing in mind that at Ockley trains can arrive at the platform on the other side of the underpass that go up to Victoria 3 or so minutes before departure on the current ludicrously generous timetable that then sees them sitting at Dorking for five minutes or so before they can move on to Boxhill & Westhumble) but there are a large number of disbenefits including the journey history being wiped out after just a few weeks (there is no possible reason for this) and the huge danger of now being aggressively charged a £50 penalty for missing or faulty taps that you can only modify for 48 hours and where the number of times you can modify missing taps or double taps is limited to 48 hours, possibly now with no reminder emails of incomplete journeys before that deadline expires.

None of these things happen with a paper ticket so why should I use Key Go when it also doesn't even cover journeys to all stations served by GTR (Southern) trains such as Fratton, Portsmouth & Southsea and Portsmouth Harbour that I quite regularly travel to from Ockley? Also unlike Uber Travel it doesn't give me a 10% discount for buying my ticket by using it and saving them the cost of staff in booking offices or maintaining big expensive paper ticket machines that may be periodically raided (especially at unmanned stations like Ockley) for the cash takings they currently hold.

Think the issue with Portsmouth & Hastings (& East Off) is that it would have to deal with SWR & SE set fares that dont follow the same structure as GTR in for instance journeys from Havant to Fratton have anytime, Evening and Sunday.

 

[Capvermell]

Think the issue with Portsmouth & Hastings (& East Off) is that it would have to deal with SWR & SE set fares that dont follow the same structure as GTR in for instance journeys from Havant to Fratton have anytime, Evening and Sunday.

Before the 48 hour automatic penalty system kicked in ending your journey at a station where Key Go was unexpectedly refused was only a minor problem that you could correct by amending your historic taps on their website to a Southern station that was a similar distance from the start of your journey but where Key Go was accepted. I have only actually had to do this once for my journey from Ockley to Putney as the other time I nearly ran in to the problem I fortunately checked at the last moment and found the Portsmouth Stations group (fares are the same to all three stations) wasn't covered by Key Go so bought a paper ticket instead from Ockley to Portsmouth Harbour instead. But then I haven't used Key Go very much at all anyway and have only used it when I was running short of time to buy a paper ticket from the ticket machine and/or initially to test out the reliability and accuracy of the Key Go system.

But now it seems a £50 penalty may well be applied without any warning and/or it would appear that emails about missing taps asking you to add them manually either won't be sent at all or won't be sent until after the 48 hour deadline to manually add or change taps before the automatic £50 penalty kicks in has already expired.

So as there is no financial incentive to use Key Go of any kind I say why continue to use it when doing so now involves a significant financial risk. So better to buy the tickets from Uber Travel and get 10% Uber Cash back on routes where Uber calculates the fare correctly (which it unfortunately doesn't yet on some routes where it either doesn't recognise the destination station if its Overground or Elizabeth Line and/or on some routes it will only sell two more expensive singles and not a cheaper return ticket) or buy a paper ticket where Uber Travel's rail ticketing teething problems have yet to be resolved.

 

[MrJeeves]

I'm sure the email notifications will continue.

My only concern is with complex issues, such as this Wednesday where a tap out at Gatwick was recorded as a tap in on the system which has left me with an incomplete journey with the only way to correct it being a phone call.

With the new system, I would likely be charged a penalty by now even though my case is still in progress.

 

[miklcct]

I'm considering it in the future months when I need a point to point season ticket on the Thameslink route and will add KeyGo and Railcard into it for my journeys into the Southern area beyond the validity.

In your experience, is KeyGo reliable enough for this kind of usage, for a through journey from the season coverage to outside it with a splitting point mid-way? For example, I'm considering buying my season ticket from Hendon to Wimbledon and can KeyGo charge it the cheapest fare from anywhere on the coverage to the Southern destination I go to?

 

[Capvermell]

With the new system, I would likely be charged a penalty by now even though my case is still in progress.

I have checked the Southern email about the new automated £50 penalties and there is no mention of the retrospective appeals process if you find that you have incurred one and feel that you shouldn't have done.

They do mention the number of times you can amend taps in a 28 day period now being limited to three occasions but no mention of what the process is if you have still have one or more of the three tap amendments left and find you have incorrectly incurred a £50 automated penalty after 48 hours that you feel should be set aside.......

 

[MrJeeves]

They do mention the number of times you can amend taps in a 28 day period now being limited to three occasions

This has been the case since they introduced online amending in Jan 2018.

no mention of what the process is if you have still have one or more of the three tap amendments left and find you have incorrectly incurred a £50 automated penalty after 48 hours that you feel should be set asid

The limit was never enforced. They stated in emails that after 3 amendments in 28 days your account may be investigated and closed if they deem them fraudulent. I've certainly amended far more than 3 times in a month.

In your experience, is KeyGo reliable enough for this kind of usage, for a through journey from the season coverage to outside it with a splitting point mid-way?

Yep, I used to do it with my Burgess Hill to Lewes season, travelling via Brighton, Hove and Haywards Heath successfully, too.

With the new system, I would likely be charged a penalty by now even though my case is still in progress.

The new terms actually address this still:

If you believe you have been charged the wrong Fare for the Journeys you have made on a particular day, please contact Customer Services. You have until the Wednesday following the date of travel to query the Fare. After this time, it will not be possible to amend the Fare.

Interestingly, the terms also still state you have until the next Wednesday to update it online. I wonder if you do it outside 48h you will be charged the penalty, then refunded?