Labour MP murdered in shooting/stabbing incident

[AlterEgo]

How does one define a "full field of candidates" then? Labour and the Conservatives, yes, the Lib Dems maybe. But UKIP? Greens? Should the SNP have to stand in every seat? Sinn Fein and the UUP? The Monster Raving Loony Party?

A rule like this would make the General Election in Northern Ireland more interesting, that's for sure.

I see nothing wrong with the major parties choosing not to field a candidate in an election held in such circumstances.

I had more of an issue with people not standing against David Davis in his political stunt by-election in 2008.



If you voted for a fringe candidate because your preferred "main party" chose not to stand, then you're an idiot.

The SNP might do quite well in some northern English seats...! Just an aside.

 

[DarloRich]

It seems rather odd that some posters on here seem unable to understand the meaning of decency and respect, the main parties chose not to attempt to take advantage of the reason for this election, surely no further debate is required

exactly - it was clearly the "right thing to do" in the circumstances.

 

[47802]

How does one define a "full field of candidates" then? Labour and the Conservatives, yes, the Lib Dems maybe. But UKIP? Greens? Should the SNP have to stand in every seat? Sinn Fein and the UUP? The Monster Raving Loony Party?

A rule like this would make the General Election in Northern Ireland more interesting, that's for sure.

I see nothing wrong with the major parties choosing not to field a candidate in an election held in such circumstances.

I had more of an issue with people not standing against David Davis in his political stunt by-election in 2008.



If you voted for a fringe candidate because your preferred "main party" chose not to stand, then you're an idiot.

I'm sorry but I find that comment outrageous apparently I'm an idiot because I exercised my right to vote and choose an alternate candidate because the candidate of my choice wasn't available.

Also you know perfectly well what I mean by a full range of candidates you don't need to knit pic over that, and ok yes you cannot force a party to stand if they don't wish to
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It seems rather odd that some posters on here seem unable to understand the meaning of decency and respect, the main parties chose not to attempt to take advantage of the reason for this election, surely no further debate is required

Decency and respect is one thing but at the end of the day we were being asked to pick a new MP yes it was very difficult situation but I think on balance it maybe should have been left to the electorate to decide whether they wanted another Labour MP out of respect for Jo or not, rather than being dictated to by the likes of some of the posters on here.

 

[Iskra]

I'm sorry but I find that comment outrageous apparently I'm an idiot because I exercised my right to vote and choose an alternate candidate because the candidate of my choice wasn't available.

Also you know perfectly well what I mean by a full range of candidates you don't need to knit pic over that, and ok yes you cannot force a party to stand if they don't wish to
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Decency and respect is one thing but at the end of the day we were being asked to pick a new MP yes it was very difficult situation but I think on balance it maybe should have been left to the electorate to decide whether they wanted another Labour MP out of respect for Jo or not, rather than being dictated to by the likes of some of the posters on here.

The rampant abuse for daring to hold a different opinion is why I rarely frequent the General Discussion area of this board. It's a joke how little respect some forum members have for others opinions, no wonder they're all so in favour of limiting other people's freedom of choice in the voting booth.

I voted Anti Corbyn out of protest, so I too am clearly an idiot, despite my two degrees from a top 10 university...

 

[Busaholic]

I'm sorry but I find that comment outrageous apparently I'm an idiot because I exercised my right to vote and choose an alternate candidate because the candidate of my choice wasn't available.

Also you know perfectly well what I mean by a full range of candidates you don't need to knit pic over that, and ok yes you cannot force a party to stand if they don't wish to
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Decency and respect is one thing but at the end of the day we were being asked to pick a new MP yes it was very difficult situation but I think on balance it maybe should have been left to the electorate to decide whether they wanted another Labour MP out of respect for Jo or not, rather than being dictated to by the likes of some of the posters on here.

I think you are right to question why the other main parties chose not to contest the election, but I do think they came to the right decision in the circumstances. I have no issue with the fringe candidates standing, it just seems a poor reflection on your area that so many with knuckle-grazing tendencies should think they might be voted for.

 

[Iskra]

I think you are right to question why the other main parties chose not to contest the election, but I do think they came to the right decision in the circumstances. I have no issue with the fringe candidates standing, it just seems a poor reflection on your area that so many with knuckle-grazing tendencies should think they might be voted for.

But how many votes did they actually get?

It attracted a lot of fringe parties, only two were far right. There aren't normally two far-right parties that stand.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I voted Anti Corbyn out of protest, so I too am clearly an idiot, despite my two degrees from a top 10 university...

If you voted for someone who changed his name by deed poll to "Anti Corbyn" in a fit of pique,knowing absolutely nothing about them (even the local paper didn't know who they were), then you're an idiot, no matter how much willy waving you do about your degrees.
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It attracted a lot of fringe parties, only two were far right. There aren't normally two far-right parties that stand.

Most of the field were far right.

You had the National Front and the BNP. You also had Liberty GB, which is an off-shoot of the BNP, and you had English Democrats, another off-shoot of the BNP. You also had the person demonstrating so much mental stability that they changed their name to Anti Corbyn.

However it is fair to point out that none of them got their deposits back, even in such a strange by-election. That's a brilliant positive from the whole affair.

 

[Iskra]

If you voted for someone who changed his name by deed poll to "Anti Corbyn" in a fit of pique,knowing absolutely nothing about them (even the local paper didn't know who they were), then you're an idiot, no matter how much willy waving you do about your degrees.
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Most of the field were far right.

You had the National Front and the BNP. You also had Liberty GB, which is an off-shoot of the BNP, and you had English Democrats, another off-shoot of the BNP. You also had the person demonstrating so much mental stability that they changed their name to Anti Corbyn.

However it is fair to point out that none of them got their deposits back, even in such a strange by-election. That's a brilliant positive from the whole affair.

So you can't see any logic in my decision?

- Labour- a shambles, and no longer represent the interests of those that the party is traditionally aimed at.
- All the others were no-hopers or right-wingers.
- So the least worst option, was the harmless Anti Corbyn who was one of the more local candidates.
- I suppose I could have not voted, but I'm old-fashioned and consider it my duty to do so.
- I could have spoilt my ballot card, but Anti-Corbyn had the slight advantage of potentially sending a message to the Labour Party that it needs to sort itself out and consider who it appeals to.

What would you have done if you didn't want to vote for Labour in this election (as clearly a number didn't, judging by the turn out and the fact that a series of no-hopers still managed to take 15% of the vote...)

(Bonus points if you can answer that without being rude or condescending)

 

[Tetchytyke]

What would you have done if you didn't want to vote for Labour in this election (as clearly a number didn't, judging by the turn out and the fact that a series of no-hopers still managed to take 15% of the vote...)

I'm not a Labour voter, so I would have abstained or spoiled my ballot paper.

When placing a vote people should work on the assumption that their vote will count and the candidate they vote for will win. Choosing some whackjob as a "protest vote" is brilliant fun...until they win.

If you were truthfully happy with Neil Humphrey, a man who changed his name to "Anti Corbyn", is in favour of hanging (he wanted “Lethal-Injection Death Penalty for Murder” or “Just Hang’m High to Die” as his election slogan) and used to be a member of the BNP, then that's fine. If you want an ex-BNP man from Nottingham (hardly local) as your MP then crack on. But if you voted for the far right candidate because it's all just a jolly jape and he had a funny name then, yes, you're an idiot.

 

[AlterEgo]

When placing a vote people should work on the assumption that their vote will count and the candidate they vote for will win. Choosing some whackjob as a "protest vote" is brilliant fun...until they win.

Just ask Margaret Beckett.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As someone proud to have voted Labour in this by-election, and someone who had personal dealings with Jo Cox, I was worried that the far-right may have had more of an impact than they did. Thankfully there were enough opportunist nutjobs standing to split the lunatic-fringe vote.

As far as my fellow Batley and Spen based members of this forum are concerned, I'd be risking a ban if I was fully candid in expressing my opinion- so I will just say that I am ashamed to share a constituency with you both.

 

[47802]

As someone proud to have voted Labour in this by-election, and someone who had personal dealings with Jo Cox, I was worried that the far-right may have had more of an impact than they did. Thankfully there were enough opportunist nutjobs standing to split the lunatic-fringe vote.

As far as my fellow Batley and Spen based members of this forum are concerned, I'd be risking a ban if I was fully candid in expressing my opinion- so I will just say that I am ashamed to share a constituency with you both.

Well that's fine for you, but as someone who feels that they could never now vote Labour while Corbyn is leader, it was the only way I felt I could vote and make a point in the absence of the other main parties and hence stand by vote choice 100%.

Yes alternatively I could have just not voted like many people choose to do, but to me that's not really the point of an election is it, however difficult the circumstances.

 

[backontrack]

The SNP might do quite well in some northern English seats...! Just an aside.

True.
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I voted Anti Corbyn out of protest, so I too am clearly an idiot, despite my two degrees from a top 10 university...

David Cameron got a first from Oxford in PPE. I am quite happy to say that I consider him an idiot.

 

[TheKnightWho]

True.
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David Cameron got a first from Oxford in Classics. I am quite happy to say that I consider him an idiot.

It was PPE not Classics; that was Johnson.

 

[Domh245]

Yes alternatively I could have just not voted like many people choose to do, but to me that's not really the point of an election is it, however difficult the circumstances.

And spoiling the ballot? That'd be the "correct" way of marking dissatisfaction with the candidates

 

[Busaholic]

True.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


David Cameron got a first from Oxford in Classics. I am quite happy to say that I consider him an idiot.

You could say it was idiotic to call a referendum unless you're certain of winning it, but that doesn't in itself make Cameron an idiot. He clearly isn't, and imo very few idiots get in to prime government positions, though over the last fifty years I can think of about half a dozen of both parties who I consider to have been extremely fortunate to have got where they did, usually because of who they weren't rather than who they were e.g. Major wasn't Heseltine.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

To move to a slightly less controversial topic: I can't help noticing that that several people posting have indicated they live in the constituency. Given that the constituency is only around 1/650 of the UK, that suggests an impressive number of people reading these general discussions!

I wonder if I can start a discussion centred on any random constituency and discover that there are similar numbers of posters living there

 

[tony_mac]

Yes alternatively I could have just not voted like many people choose to do, but to me that's not really the point of an election is it, however difficult the circumstances.

Did you intend to vote for a candidate who was described as "far right" by the Sun?

 

[backontrack]

It was PPE not Classics; that was Johnson.

Oh. Cheers! I always get the two mixed up.

I think Johnson said that PPE wasn't a real degree compared to Classics or something.

 

[miami]

And spoiling the ballot? That'd be the "correct" way of marking dissatisfaction with the candidates

Absolutely.

It must be made quite clear that assassination will not change the balance of power in parliament. If there are no suitable candidates, write "none of the above" on your ballot paper.

Personally I'm in favour of de-coupling the power an MP has from. You would still have the local link with an MP from your area, but when it comes to actually voting for each law, each MP has a "voice" which is as powerful as the number of votes they got in the last election.

Each losing candidate could nominate an MP to take "their votes", so a losing labour MP might nominate the leader of the labour party, so those votes aren't lost from westminster. This would mean having to have MPs representing the wishes of over 50% of the country to form a government, which happened in 2010, but not aside from that.

But it's far more democratic to have a PM chosen by 300 MPs who themselves only managed to get 17% of the UK population to vote for them.

 

[AndyPJG]

BBC News

An Old Bailey jury has taken just over an hour to find Thomas Mair guilty of the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox.
The 53-year-old shot and stabbed to death the mother-of-two in Birstall, West Yorkshire, on 16 June, a week before the EU referendum vote.
Mr Mair, who denied murder, chose not to give any evidence in his defence.
Mrs Cox's husband, Brendan, her parents, Jean and Gordon Leadbeater, and her sister, Kim, were all in court for the verdict.

Edit: For info

 

[Crossover]

Mair has been sentenced to 'life is life' and will never be released

Transcript from the court has said that Mair wished to address the court directly. The judge declined him the opportunity

 

[AlterEgo]

Mair has been sentenced to 'life is life' and will never be released

Transcript from the court has said that Mair wished to address the court directly. The judge declined him the opportunity

Good riddance.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Mair has been sentenced to 'life is life' and will never be released

Transcript from the court has said that Mair wished to address the court directly. The judge declined him the opportunity

Good. It's hard to think of a more heinous and ultimately futile act than this killing. Mair will now rot in gaol, knowing that a society based on his perverted worldview would take him outside and shoot him.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Nice to see at least one part of the media now actually acknowledging the fact this guy is a terrorist! (The Guardians headline is "'Terrorist' Thomas Mair jailed for life for Jo Cox murder"), and glad the CPS actually tried him as such (as they did for the Lee Rigby killers).

 

[AlterEgo]

Nice to see at least one part of the media now actually acknowledging the fact this guy is a terrorist! (The Guardians headline is "'Terrorist' Thomas Mair jailed for life for Jo Cox murder"), and glad the CPS actually tried him as such (as they did for the Lee Rigby killers).

That's not correct; the CPS did not charge him with any terrorism offences and therefore court did not try him in this way. That's why he was only called a 'terrorist' in inverted commas.

The only reference to terrorism was from the prosecuting QC, giving his own opinion, after the verdict was declared.

 

[Busaholic]

Transcript from the court has said that Mair wished to address the court directly. The judge declined him the opportunity

Apart from the verdict and the sentence that is the best bit of news from this trial. I was convinced he only pleaded 'not guilty' so that he could attempt one final poisonous rant before being confined to the dustbin of history.

 

[zuriblue]

A friend of mine who works in Higher Education and has had the Prevent training (designed to spot radicalised students) pointed out that there are are a number of pointers that Mair fits:

Ostracisation from regular society (self inflicted or not).
Feeling of disepowerment, or lack of representation (or that something you take seriously is ignored by 'the mainstream').
Drug/alcohol misuse.
Obsession with 'a cause' and material related to it.
Lack of stable family/romantic relationship.
Desire to 'be someone' and make a statement.

Obviously one size doesn't fit all and there are other factors but these tend to be the warning signs. Basically there's not a great deal of difference between this guy and the guys who murdered Lee Rigby.

 

[kylemore]

Basically there's not a great deal of difference between this guy and the guys who murdered Lee Rigby.

Probably truer than you think.

 

[WelshBluebird]

That's not correct; the CPS did not charge him with any terrorism offences and therefore court did not try him in this way. That's why he was only called a 'terrorist' in inverted commas.

The only reference to terrorism was from the prosecuting QC, giving his own opinion, after the verdict was declared.

Hmm, the Guardian seem to disagree.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/23/thomas-mair-trial-and-the-question-of-terrorism-jo-cox

The answer is that Mair was indeed prosecuted as a terrorist, and this was made clear during preliminary hearings. This is the reason that he was tried in London, rather than Yorkshire.

He was certainly charged with murder rather than a specific terrorism offence (which still gets to me), but the other details seem a bit more nuanced.