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Labour MP murdered in shooting/stabbing incident

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Arglwydd Golau

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Oh what and I suppose you're an expert? It's just a statement of fact, who knows I might be there one day?

Not at all, but having had a long career as a Health Professional in the NHS and worked with many people with a Mental Illness, I wouldn't make such a judgement without a thorough assessment of the individual. Not sure that you have done that prior to making your statement? If you have, you shouldn't be posting it on here!
 
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TheKnightWho

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Likewise. Mental illness does not equate normally to someone attacking someone. Someone who is mentally ill is normally more a danger to themself.

Good to see you're getting the treatment and help you need. I was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder 5 years ago but with help and treatment, I live a normal life.

Likewise. The way that mental health is weaponised by those who know nothing about it in order to distract from the other factors involved in this death is horrible.
 

Gutfright

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Jo Cox was killed for her political work

At the moment, we don't know how much the killer knew about Jo Cox. He could have been stalking her, following her political career and activism obsessively.

He could have known only one thing: that she was pro-remain.

As it stands, we just don't know.

Your scepticism does seem to be a real stretch, however.

If you expect me to apologise for basing my reasoning on facts and evidence (of which there is very little at this time) rather than speculation, then you may be disappointed.
 

jon0844

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In a photograph behind a Britain First flag/banner. Yeah, must have been a totally random attack. He can't have had a clue who the lady even was.

(that's no doubt what a LOT of people are saying without a hint of sarcasm).

So many people are now saying it's about 'taking out country back' (along with photos, memes and posters far worse than the one Nigel stood proudly in front of), but at least this referendum has brought these people out of the woodwork.
 
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EM2

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At the moment, we don't know how much the killer knew about Jo Cox. He could have been stalking her, following her political career and activism obsessively.

He could have known only one thing: that she was pro-remain.

As it stands, we just don't know.
If either of those things are true, then she was killed because of her political work.
 

TheKnightWho

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At the moment, we don't know how much the killer knew about Jo Cox. He could have been stalking her, following her political career and activism obsessively.

He could have known only one thing: that she was pro-remain.

As it stands, we just don't know.



If you expect me to apologise for basing my reasoning on facts and evidence (of which there is very little at this time) rather than speculation, then you may be disappointed.

Scepticism is not "facts and evidence" - it's doubting facts and evidence, and in your case unreasonably.

Ask yourself this: did you apply this kind of critique to the killers of Lee Rigby?
 

Gutfright

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Ask yourself this: did you apply this kind of critique to the killers of Lee Rigby?

Immediately after the murder, the killers of Lee Rigby went on a long diatribe explaining that they knew their victim was a soldier, and saying "I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan they have nothing to do there."

By comparison, the killer of Jo Cox has said very little. He hasn't said how much he knew about Cox or her work before he murdered her, for example. Facts are relatively thin on the ground.

So yes, in both cases my critique involved using facts and evidence instead of speculation. In the case of Lee Rigby's murder, we had a hell of a lot more evidence to work with.
 

TheKnightWho

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Immediately after the murder, the killers of Lee Rigby went on a long diatribe explaining that they knew their victim was a soldier, and saying "I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan they have nothing to do there."

By comparison, the killer of Jo Cox has said very little. He hasn't said how much he knew about Cox or her work before he murdered her, for example. Facts are relatively thin on the ground.

So yes, in both cases my critique involved using facts and evidence instead of speculation. In the case of Lee Rigby's murder, we had a hell of a lot more evidence to work with.

No, he's just spouted far-right rhetoric, was involved with Britain First and murdered an MP who is well-known for standing for everything he hated.

But yes - I'm sure it's all just a coincidence, and that his statements were pure accident.
 

Gutfright

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But yes - I'm sure it's all just a coincidence, and that his statements were pure accident.

If you ask for evidence when people speculate about Jo Cox's murder, that must mean you believe that it's all just a coincidence, and that his statements were pure accident.

Do you even logic, bro?
 

ExRes

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No, he's just spouted far-right rhetoric, was involved with Britain First and murdered an MP who is well-known for standing for everything he hated.

But yes - I'm sure it's all just a coincidence, and that his statements were pure accident.

What rhetoric has he spouted?

What statements has he made?

If you are referring to the comments reported by the eye witness then I'm sure you'll be aware that that witness has since stated that he doesn't actually know precisely what Mair said

I have no interest in whether he is far left, far right, simply evil or simply stupid, his punishment should be the same regardless
 

kermit

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My,my, this thread is developing in a depressingly irate manner.

It is ironic that in the midst of such a tragic and distressing event, some of the dignity and respect that our elected members have lost in recent times, has been restored.

Yet who had heard of Jo Cox, evidently a fantastic MP, before this brutal outrage against the civilised society for which she so eloquently stood?

What role should the media accept in having trumpeted the collected work of so many, evidently less able and principled, politicians?

And how do we hold people who suffer mental illness to account for their actions, proportionately and justly?

I'm just grateful that, ironically, the embedding of ECHR into UK law means that the grisly debates that might now be taking place if the crime had been committed in America are irrelevant here.
 

Groningen

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In the Netherlands with a right wing newspaper (De Telegraaf) is that Jo Cox was an animalactivist and that the murderer had a mink breeding farm and against hunting. Others say that this happens when politician do not listen to the people. The level of knowledge what happens/happened is here very low. Others say this is not a loner, but a terrorist. And why should the term terrorist only apply to muslims. 1 says she invited too much refugees in her district. Or that several towns are overrun with East Europians.
 

61653 HTAFC

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With all due respect, (and apologies if this smacks of backseat moderating) can I politely request that any name-calling and political posturing is kept clear of this thread? As I mentioned earlier Jo Cox was someone I would consider a friend and it does none of you any favour by trying to score cheap points over each other, let alone doing her memory any justice.

Use of the accused's mental state as a way to discredit any political motivations he may also have held (whether to distance his actions from your own cause or to suggest that your own political position is "better" because it's the others that are crazy, does nobody and no objective any good.

The accused may have been insane, he may have been a right-wing extremist. My own feelings are that he is both.
 

Crossover

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BTW does anybody know why this mornings hearing was in London and not at a local magistrates court as would normally be the case?

It has just been mentioned on the news that it is following protocol of terrorism cases
 

TheKnightWho

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If you ask for evidence when people speculate about Jo Cox's murder, that must mean you believe that it's all just a coincidence, and that his statements were pure accident.

Do you even logic, bro?

Except evidence has been provided, that you have repeatedly ignored. That doesn't make you 'logical' - it just means you're selectively questioning what you find inconvenient, "bro".
 

61653 HTAFC

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Except evidence has been provided, that you have repeatedly ignored. That doesn't make you 'logical' - it just means you're selectively questioning what you find inconvenient, "bro".

If the both of you could possibly agree to disagree, at least as far as this thread is concerned, that would be great... :roll:
 

lejog

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Immediately after the murder, the killers of Lee Rigby went on a long diatribe explaining that they knew their victim was a soldier, and saying "I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan they have nothing to do there."

By comparison, the killer of Jo Cox has said very little. He hasn't said how much he knew about Cox or her work before he murdered her, for example. Facts are relatively thin on the ground.

From the magistrates hearing today: "A written summary of the prosecution’s case revealed the findings of a search of the defendant’s house. Newspaper articles relating to Cox and ideological material relating to extreme rightwing and white-supremacist organisations and individuals were recovered from the property."

What rhetoric has he spouted?

What statements has he made?

If you are referring to the comments reported by the eye witness then I'm sure you'll be aware that that witness has since stated that he doesn't actually know precisely what Mair said

Also: "Mair is alleged to have said “Britain first”, “this is for Britain”, “Britain always comes first” and “keep Britain independent” as he attacked the MP, prosecutors said."
 

Groningen

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Jo Cox bad luck was that she lived in a district where 1 person waited to explode if it did not go his way. Was she for a Brexit then her life may have been saved. This murderer seems to have ties to the extreme right for almost (or more) 20 years.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Jo Cox bad luck was that she lived in a district where 1 person waited to explode if it did not go his way. Was she for a Brexit then her life may have been saved. This murderer seems to have ties to the extreme right for almost (or more) 20 years.

Bad luck is part of it, it seems that regardless of politics this person was unstable and may well have "snapped" for some other reason if that was what he became obsessed with. However as a Batley resident I can vouch for the town not suffering from the divisions often found in towns with a diverse population. If this man thought he was going to bring about some sort of race war by his actions he was very much mistaken.
 

Harbornite

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What rhetoric has he spouted?

What statements has he made?

If you are referring to the comments reported by the eye witness then I'm sure you'll be aware that that witness has since stated that he doesn't actually know precisely what Mair said

I have no interest in whether he is far left, far right, simply evil or simply stupid, his punishment should be the same regardless


This is a reference to his membership of a neo nazi group. Either way, it's pretty chilling when you think about what happened and no amount of whinging about the motivations will bring her back. Her last words were along the lines of "no, the pain is too much" after her assistant had tried to help her up. Awful.
 

RichmondCommu

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You were doing ok until you wrote that, but trying to score cheap political points at this time is not worthy.

I'm not making political points, cheap or otherwise. My wife's family (who happen to be Asian) have had their property and businesses attacked by Far Right extremists. However of course you don't want to know about that because according to you that amounts to "cheap political points". Perhaps you would rather that attacks on my wife's extended family were ignored? And you do really think I care whether you think "I was doing ok" until I mentioned the reality of Far Right extremists? I'm assuming here that you don't come under almost daily attack because of the colour of your skin? Perhaps you don't think my wife's family are "worthy" of protection from Far Right groups and that they themselves are trying to make political capital out of it? At best you appear to be ignorant of what's really happening in our great country.

You are clearly unaware of how active Far Right extremists are in East Lancs, certain boroughs of East / South East London and certain areas of Essex and North Kent. Not to mention rallies in City's across the country in which they encourage white people to turn against Blacks and Asians. And even if you are aware of this it's very clear to me that you want it all to be brushed under the carpet so to speak.
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We're not under.threat though. I understand the sentiment but that kind of hyperbole doesn't help anyone. All you're doing is giving the stormfags power they don't have and respect they don't deserve.

So you're suggesting that my wife's family are not under threat when their property and businesses are being attacked by Far Right extremists. They are being attacked because of racial hatred and yet you're encouraging me to pass it off as "hyperbole"???

Far Right extremists are developing their breeding grounds in boroughs of East / South East London and certain areas of Essex / North Kent. I'm afraid they already have power and respect to a certain degree in the areas that I've listed; unless we start to take the threat seriously it will continue to grow and grow.
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The bloke is mentally ill.

Oh please. He knew exactly what he was doing and who to target, or else he would have gone after his next door neighbours. Not to mention his links with overseas Far Right groups. I suspect you would rather prefer to ignore that for fear of it working against the Brexit campaign? And to think that other forum members are being accused of making political capital out of a despicable and wicked act of pure hatred
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The leave campaign in general have been hesitant to make political capital out of Jo Cox's death. The remain side have had no such inhibitions.

Well at least no one could accuse you of being paranoid or anything like that. Heaven know's how you will react if there is a vote to remain in the EU next week. Who will you find to lash out at then?
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Exactly and it's disappointing to see somebody using this murder to score cheap political points.

So do you condone racial attacks against Blacks and Asians because they happen to be successful? According to you Blacks and Asians who speak out against racially motivated violence are looking to "score cheap political points". You should be ashamed of yourself. Call yourself British???
 
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Antman

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I'm not making political points, cheap or otherwise. My wife's family (who happen to be Asian) have had their property and businesses attacked by Far Right extremists. However of course you don't want to know about that because according to you that amounts to "cheap political points". Perhaps you would rather that attacks on my wife's extended family were ignored? And you do really think I care whether you think "I was doing ok" until I mentioned the reality of Far Right extremists? I'm assuming here that you don't come under almost daily attack because of the colour of your skin? Perhaps you don't think my wife's family are "worthy" of protection from Far Right groups and that they themselves are trying to make political capital out of it? At best you appear to be ignorant of what's really happening in our great country.

You are clearly unaware of how active Far Right extremists are in East Lancs, certain boroughs of East / South East London and certain areas of Essex and North Kent. Not to mention rallies in City's across the country in which they encourage white people to turn against Blacks and Asians. And even if you are aware of this it's very clear to me that you want it all to be brushed under the carpet so to speak.
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So you're suggesting that my wife's family are not under threat when their property and businesses are being attacked by Far Right extremists. They are being attacked because of racial hatred and yet you're encouraging me to pass it off as "hyperbole"???

Far Right extremists are developing their breeding grounds in boroughs of East / South East London and certain areas of Essex / North Kent. I'm afraid they already have power and respect to a certain degree in the areas that I've listed; unless we start to take the threat seriously it will continue to grow and grow.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Oh please. He knew exactly what he was doing and who to target, or else he would have gone after his next door neighbours. Not to mention his links with overseas Far Right groups. I suspect you would rather prefer to ignore that for fear of it working against the Brexit campaign? And to think that other forum members are being accused of making political capital out of a despicable and wicked act of pure hatred
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well at least no one could accuse you of being paranoid or anything like that. Heaven know's how you will react if there is a vote to remain in the EU next week. Who will you find to lash out at then?
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So do you condone racial attacks against Blacks and Asians because they happen to be successful? According to you Blacks and Asians who speak out against racially motivated violence are looking to "score cheap political points". You should be ashamed of yourself. Call yourself British???

I would condemn violence against anybody.

You are trying to score cheap political points and frankly it's rather tiresome.

And yes I do I call myself British became............well I am. What a ridiculous question.
 
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backontrack

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Right. When I need to know about rhetological fallacies in Year 11 RS, I'm just going to study this thread. :lol:
 

Johnuk123

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I'm not making political points, cheap or otherwise. My wife's family (who happen to be Asian) have had their property and businesses attacked by Far Right extremists. However of course you don't want to know about that because according to you that amounts to "cheap political points". Perhaps you would rather that attacks on my wife's extended family were ignored? And you do really think I care whether you think "I was doing ok" until I mentioned the reality of Far Right extremists? I'm assuming here that you don't come under almost daily attack because of the colour of your skin? Perhaps you don't think my wife's family are "worthy" of protection from Far Right groups and that they themselves are trying to make political capital out of it? At best you appear to be ignorant of what's really happening in our great country.

Unfortunately you are making a political point on the death of a young woman bringing totally irrelevant alleged incidents into the debate which has nothing to do with the subject.
You have made a series of assumptions about what I think which is just not true but carry on if you think you need to get it off your chest.
 

northwichcat

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where the far-right has a say over how Britain is run despite the fact that the British electorate has soundly rejected right-wing extremism

Don't forget Nick Griffin had a term as a MEP while a member of the BNP and BNP members to local councils and the London Assembly. Although, it seems BNP support has subsided and they have just the 1 local councillor remaining.
 

TheKnightWho

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I would condemn violence against anybody.

You are trying to score cheap political points and frankly it's rather tiresome.

And yes I do I call myself British became............well I am. What a ridiculous question.

All you're doing is parroting the right-wing columnists. Talking about the causes of an issue is not "trying to score cheap political points".

I find it really quite disgusting how you're trying to brush what happened to Jo Cox under the carpet, and frankly RichmondCommu is right on.
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Unfortunately you are making a political point on the death of a young woman bringing totally irrelevant alleged incidents into the debate which has nothing to do with the subject.
You have made a series of assumptions about what I think which is just not true but carry on if you think you need to get it off your chest.

Totally irrelevant? If it's about a culture of xenophobia and hatred that drove a mentally ill man to do something, it's not irrelevant at all.

It's telling that it's only a core few on this forum that seem to be repeating this point over and over. Most seem to understand the hypocrisy of trying to shut down a politically inconvenient debate whilst claiming your opponent is scoring cheap political points.
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Right. When I need to know about rhetological fallacies in Year 11 RS, I'm just going to study this thread. :lol:

Most of the time they get misused anyway. Good to know, but they're not a trump card like most seem to think, because most debates aren't - and cannot be - formally logical.
 

Gathursty

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To me, it appears he was influenced more by Anders Behring Breivik than Nigel Farage.
 

backontrack

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Most of the time they get misused anyway. Good to know, but they're not a trump card like most seem to think, because most debates aren't - and cannot be - formally logical.
That's fine, I don't even want to study Year 11 RS anyway. :lol:

But we have to.
 
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