Labour Spending Review

[Thirteen]

I agree: The statement about fares in the letter from the DfT is pretty clear:



That's not actually quite directly telling Sadiq to raise fares by RPI+1 but it makes it pretty clear that's the DfT's expectation and they won't be happy if he doesn't.

The fares increases for 2026-2028 will be up to Sadiq Khan but I wouldn't be surprised if 2029 increases ends up being in the hand of his successor since there is a chance he won't stand again.

 

[kevjs]

On the flip side we have messes like East Midlands Parkway - a massive station with huge overheads, which is barely used, not helped by the fact the airport buses stopped.

On the flip side it was an extremely handy railhead during the Nottingham blockade, and the former power station site is earmarked for a significant amount of residential and commercial development.

In the future we may look back upon it as an extremely unusual modern example of building a station before it's needed, rather than years after!

How many places have gained ‘new’ bypasses in the last few years? Here in the Peak District it was some while since the last one as far as I’m aware (Chapel-en-Frith). This is despite us having one of the earliest (Taddington). Mottram is finally seeing some improvements after decades of stalling.

Don’t confuse junction safety improvements (often to benefit pedestrian or cycle movement or to access new housing or even rail-served freight interchanges) with ‘traditional’ small town or village bypasses.

Broughton and Penwortham in the Preston area - both also seeing some of the bypassed road space reallocated for active travel - rather than simply inducing demand and resulting in the same issues 25 years down the line!

Preston has also finally seen the construction of a part of its Western bypass which was originally identified as being needed by the 1980s, although a significant justification was to support new housebuilding in the expanding city.

This is going to become a massive issue long term - once people can access relatively cheap autonomous taxis, the incentives to use buses disappear. Why spend £3 on a bus ticket when you can get an autonomous taxi that takes you from door to door for £5. There will likely need to be some sort of duty on them to ensure that crippling congestion isn't caused by their rollout, especially in major cities.

And probably more importantly dedicated space that's not shared with taxis - £3 and takes 24-26 minutes or £5 and takes 15 - 90 minutes is a whole different kettle of fish. Undoubtedly there will also be a shortage of vehicles at peak times, or significantly higher fares to cover the costs of vehicles sitting idle most of the time.

 

[may032]

This is going to become a massive issue long term - once people can access relatively cheap autonomous taxis, the incentives to use buses disappear. Why spend £3 on a bus ticket when you can get an autonomous taxi that takes you from door to door for £5. There will likely need to be some sort of duty on them to ensure that crippling congestion isn't caused by their rollout, especially in major cities.

It’s going to be a significant pressure, and could end the need for rural bus services. But in cities, road congestion should mean rail corridors and bus lanes become more important than ever.

 

[Brubulus]

It’s going to be a significant pressure, and could end the need for rural bus services. But in cities, road congestion should mean rail corridors and bus lanes become more important than ever.

If anything rural buses will be protected in the medium term, since robotaxi companies will roll out in urban areas only. The issue is many bus lanes are currently open to taxis and that will have to change very quickly.

However robotaxi service will be an absolute game-changer for local journeys in rural areas if they eventually roll out. They'll substantially reduce SEN and elderly transport costs for councils, enable on demand affordable transport and aren't as bound by the possibility of traffic chaos as in urban areas.

 

[The exile]

However robotaxi service will be an absolute game-changer for local journeys in rural areas if they eventually roll out. They'll substantially reduce SEN and elderly transport costs for councils, enable on demand affordable transport and aren't as bound by the possibility of traffic chaos as in urban areas.

And probably have a more predictable demand level. Still wondering what will happen at points of high demand (the end of an event for example). Do these things have to be booked in advance (in which case how do you find which of the 800 or so vehicles that have turned up is the one you’ve ordered) or is it a general free for all without the presence of a taxi driver or bus driver to discourage actual violence?

 

[may032]

And probably have a more predictable demand level. Still wondering what will happen at points of high demand (the end of an event for example). Do these things have to be booked in advance (in which case how do you find which of the 800 or so vehicles that have turned up is the one you’ve ordered) or is it a general free for all without the presence of a taxi driver or bus driver to discourage actual violence?

Probably similar to Uber, pre-booked. Then possibly the doors only open following authentication using your phone.

 

[The exile]

Probably similar to Uber, pre-booked. Then possibly the doors only open following authentication using your phone.

... once you've worked out which one is yours! Will work fine out on the street outside your house - but will be fun when you're one of 100 people who's booked one from an event 15 minutes after it ends (assuming you know when it's going to end!). And as for what happens after the Cup Final....? Equally, lots of stations (for example) are in fairly constricted areas - so where does your car wait when the 20 that have been booked by the people on a now late-running train haven't left? Doesn't take long to see the advantages of multi person vehicles running to a known timetable along fixed routes. I'm sure that technology can cope with steering autonomous vehicles through a streetscape designed for horse-and-cart (even on a Friday night) - but coping with the vagaries of life as it is actually lived at scale is going to be a different matter. I'm sure that some of the proponents of the technology will argue that all the above points apply today to taxis - which is probably true, but taxis are at present with very few exceptions a very niche market.

 

[may032]

... once you've worked out which one is yours! Will work fine out on the street outside your house - but will be fun when you're one of 100 people who's booked one from an event 15 minutes after it ends (assuming you know when it's going to end!). And as for what happens after the Cup Final....?

Exactly, and stadiums/events are usually in urban areas where rail and buses will still have a huge advantage. 70,000 people leaving Wembley stadium won’t be getting into 70,000 robotaxis.

 

[Krokodil]

And probably have a more predictable demand level. Still wondering what will happen at points of high demand (the end of an event for example). Do these things have to be booked in advance (in which case how do you find which of the 800 or so vehicles that have turned up is the one you’ve ordered) or is it a general free for all without the presence of a taxi driver or bus driver to discourage actual violence?

They'll have exactly the same issues that cars do. Look at a stadium in the US, the amount of parking surrounding it and the queues to get out afterwards.

The best way of moving masses of people is er - mass transit.

 

[The Ham]

They'll have exactly the same issues that cars do. Look at a stadium in the US, the amount of parking surrounding it and the queues to get out afterwards.

The best way of moving masses of people is er - mass transit.

Indeed, people are more than happy to use a lift (which carries lots of people and is fairly easy to define as a massive transit system) however when it comes to horizontal travel there appears to be an aversion to providing it.

If we tried using personal lifts (even if they could all use the same shaft) there just wouldn't be the capacity to move that number of people.