Lack of train crew on Great Northern?

[sharpener]

There were then three "railway enforcement officers" who did nothing but stand and chat in a doorway between Hitchin and London, their presence offering absolutely zero value whatsoever.

I've noticed this when armed police have been deployed at KGX, they are usually in pairs and spend most of the time looking inwards and conversing with each other. (Also their weapons are pointed all over the place.)

Unlike on the rare occasions when there are actual soldiers, who face outwards and scan all round looking for threats, while pointing their guns at the ground. A whole different level of professionalism.

 

[Horizon22]

Another example today which points to the same issue of poor management focus.

Realtime Trains | 2R03 0528 Letchworth to London Kings Cross | 14/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 2R03 0528 departure from Letchworth to London Kings Cross on 14/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1T06 0639 London Kings Cross to Kings Lynn | 14/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 1T06 0639 departure from London Kings Cross to Kings Lynn on 14/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1T17 0842 Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross | 14/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 1T17 0842 departure from Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross on 14/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 2L22 1057 London Kings Cross to Letchworth | 14/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 2L22 1057 departure from London Kings Cross to Letchworth on 14/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 2R31 1227 Letchworth to London Kings Cross | 14/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 2R31 1227 departure from Letchworth to London Kings Cross on 14/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This diagram ran late all morning today, which all seems to be a knock-on from a problem which occurred at 0530 in the morning - the diagram didn't become right-time until 1342. That's a poor show all round.

Yes that needs a service intervention otherwise - as I routinely tell people on these forums who criticise service recovery decisions - trains can run late all day and have continued knock on impacts. Normally you don’t have an actual example to explain it though!

Of relevance to observations made elsewhere on here, 2L22 (1057 King's Cross to Letchworth), despite being 23 minutes late, took 7 minutes to detrain at Letchworth. I was observing this, and the detrainment was carried out by one member of staff, who was taking almost a minute to check each carriage, with absolutely no sense of urgency at all. The train didn't seem to turn round quickly in the reception roads, and when it did get back to Letchworth (still 7 late) the train sat in the platform for 2 minutes for no obvious reason before departing.

Looks like it was 8 minutes to arrive, change ends and depart (1220-1228). How long was the train? As, to be honest, that sounds reasonable and in line with driver parameters if it was a 8-car or similar length. I’m also not sure - even if 7 minutes is long - whether being 23 down has any bearing on the issue. If it takes X minutes to clear, it will take X minutes regardless of whether the train is on time or 50 minutes late. Indeed lateness can be problematic if staff have other duties to carry out.

As for sitting at Letchworth that could be a host of reasons (no proceed aspect for example) and without someone doing a service replay or asking station directly you’d be unable to tell why. Might have been out of ARS by this point due to lateness.

 

[whoosh]

Seems to me that a couple of drivers need to be retained at Cambridge just to shunt trains during disruption.

What like a 'standby' shift?
'Work to control's instructions'.

All the standbys (one at each depot per shift, am's and pm's) were done away with in the fall out from the May 2018 timetable carnage. The union's requests for their reinstatement are met with, "The DfT won't sanction them."

That was also the year in which Control was moved out of King's Cross to Three Bridges.

Of relevance to observations made elsewhere on here, 2L22 (1057 King's Cross to Letchworth), despite being 23 minutes late, took 7 minutes to detrain at Letchworth. I was observing this, and the detrainment was carried out by one member of staff, who was taking almost a minute to check each carriage, with absolutely no sense of urgency at all. The train didn't seem to turn round quickly in the reception roads, and when it did get back to Letchworth (still 7 late) the train sat in the platform for 2 minutes for no obvious reason before departing. There was a crew change at Hitchin which wasn't especially quick, then the run was reasonably okay as far as Alexandra Palace, where a further 3 minutes was then lost being stuck behind a 717 from Hertford.

I remain of the view that there's a lacking in management focus on the basics. 7 minutes to empty out a train in the early afternoon is completely excessive by any measure.

Was it a 387? Class 700s now have a 'terminal mode' which when selected means the staff member clearing the train just presses the door close button at each set of doors and that set of doors locks.
A 387 in contrast, needs the end door key switch operated on each coach, which necessitates heading back out onto the platform every couple of coaches to operate.
They take longer to shut down than 700s or 717s (which had terminal mode from new).

I think the Up platform at Letchworth should be fitted with a sign with the signal number (which is some way off the platform - a good train length at least). Recent resignalling has led to it's renumbering, and I expect a look at a route guide or call to the Signaller is often required to find out the signal number to set up on the GSM-R, as a train starting it's journey here is starting with a new headcode. That could take a minute or two!
Unless you regularly set up there, you won't know it off by heart.

It's frustrating that Up Slow 2 isn't used for late running trains skipping Hornsey and Harringay, using platform 1 at Finsbury Park.

 

[Horizon22]

Was it a 387? Class 700s now have a 'terminal mode' which when selected means the staff member clearing the train just presses the door close button at each set of doors and that set of doors locks.
A 387 in contrast, needs the end door key switch operated on each coach, which necessitates heading back out onto the platform every couple of coaches to operate.
They take longer to shut down than 700s or 717s (which had terminal mode from new).

387s have a similar “off-peak” mode though.

 

[sharpener]

Looks like it was 8 minutes to arrive, change ends and depart (1220-1228). How long was the train? As, to be honest, that sounds reasonable and in line with driver parameters if it was a 8-car or similar length. I’m also not sure - even if 7 minutes is long - whether being 23 down has any bearing on the issue.

My reading of the linked RTT reports is that 2L22 arrived at 1213 1/2 (23 late) and 2R31 left at 1234 3/4 (still 7 late as @bramling has said). So the turnround took 21 1/4 minutes, which is admittedly less than the 37 mins allowed in the timetable but still hard to explain away.

Or to put it another way, they had 13 1/2 mins to detrain, turn it round and get it away on time, should that not be adequate?

 

[Bald Rick]

My reading of the linked RTT reports is that 2L22 arrived at 1213 1/2 (23 late) and 2R31 left at 1234 3/4 (still 7 late as @bramling has said). So the turnround took 21 1/4 minutes, which is admittedly less than the 37 mins allowed in the timetable but still hard to explain away.

Or to put it another way, they had 13 1/2 mins to detrain, turn it round and get it away on time, should that not be adequate?

Depends on what the driver needed to do PNB wise in that time (assuming he wasnt due relief. Or needed relief!)

 

[Magdalia]

Depends on what the driver needed to do PNB wise in that time (assuming he wasnt due relief. Or needed relief!)

According to this there was a crew change at Hitchin on the return from Letchworth.

The train didn't seem to turn round quickly in the reception roads, and when it did get back to Letchworth (still 7 late) the train sat in the platform for 2 minutes for no obvious reason before departing. There was a crew change at Hitchin which wasn't especially quick

 

[Bald Rick]

According to this there was a crew change at Hitchin on the return from Letchworth.

Perhaps he / she needed relief at Letchworth then (not crew relief, the other kind).

 

[bramling]

Perhaps he / she needed relief at Letchworth then (not crew relief, the other kind).

Notwithstanding the late running, a relief shouldn’t have been *that* urgent, as there was a crew change booked just a few minutes later at Hitchin - though I realise that doesn’t help if you really need to go!

 

[Bald Rick]

Notwithstanding the late running, a relief shouldn’t have been *that* urgent, as there was a crew change booked just a few minutes later at Hitchin - though I realise that doesn’t help if you really need to go!

“Go when you can, not when you must”

 

[sharpener]

Notwithstanding the late running, a relief shouldn’t have been *that* urgent, as there was a crew change booked just a few minutes later at Hitchin - though I realise that doesn’t help if you really need to go!

All the more reason to make a snappy turnaround! Or do what you need to while yr colleague is checking and locking the carriages if you are allowed to leave the cab. I would have thought with the end of yr shift only 5 mins down the line most ppl would be anxious to press on if at all possible.

 

[bramling]

What like a 'standby' shift?
'Work to control's instructions'.

All the standbys (one at each depot per shift, am's and pm's) were done away with in the fall out from the May 2018 timetable carnage. The union's requests for their reinstatement are met with, "The DfT won't sanction them."

That was also the year in which Control was moved out of King's Cross to Three Bridges.

Was it a 387? Class 700s now have a 'terminal mode' which when selected means the staff member clearing the train just presses the door close button at each set of doors and that set of doors locks.
A 387 in contrast, needs the end door key switch operated on each coach, which necessitates heading back out onto the platform every couple of coaches to operate.
They take longer to shut down than 700s or 717s (which had terminal mode from new).

Yes 2x387. That certainly explains some of the time, though watching the whole thing I still felt it was slower than it could have been.

But essentially if it’s routinely taking 7 minutes to close up an 8-car train at a quiet time of day, then this needs addressing in one way or another.

I think the Up platform at Letchworth should be fitted with a sign with the signal number (which is some way off the platform - a good train length at least). Recent resignalling has led to it's renumbering, and I expect a look at a route guide or call to the Signaller is often required to find out the signal number to set up on the GSM-R, as a train starting it's journey here is starting with a new headcode. That could take a minute or two!
Unless you regularly set up there, you won't know it off by heart.

Again, this is something management should be on top of. If people on a forum can have a conversation and identify reasons why the timetable isn’t being able to be achieved, management ought to be capable of same.

It's frustrating that Up Slow 2 isn't used for late running trains skipping Hornsey and Harringay, using platform 1 at Finsbury Park.

Yes it’s been very rarely used ever since is was upgraded many years ago. Despite having made countless journeys on the stopping trains over the years, I’m in counting fingers territory as to the number of times I’ve been on a train which has used it. It does seem like the signallers don’t like varying routings now, though to be fair this isn’t entirely a York thing, as it happened with KX towards the end as well.

 

[Horizon22]

My reading of the linked RTT reports is that 2L22 arrived at 1213 1/2 (23 late) and 2R31 left at 1234 3/4 (still 7 late as @bramling has said). So the turnround took 21 1/4 minutes, which is admittedly less than the 37 mins allowed in the timetable but still hard to explain away.

Or to put it another way, they had 13 1/2 mins to detrain, turn it round and get it away on time, should that not be adequate?

I don’t think that reading is quite correct because of the intermediate steps.

• 2L22 arrives 1213
• 5L22 departs 1220 (7 minute detrainment)
• 5L22 also apparently arrives before it departs so we’ll say 1220-1221
• 5R31 departs at 1228 (7-8 minute turnaround time for driver)
• 5R31 arrives at 1230
• 2R31 departs at 1234.

So all in all the biggest issues are a) detrainment at Letchworth (discussed in length here) and b) the unknown 4 minute delay on the return at Platform 1.

Ultimately turning trains on a 2 platform through station is a recipe for disaster and congestion especially when the service is already disrupted. It is a very clear pinch point that needs resolving one way or another.

Yes 2x387. That certainly explains some of the time, though watching the whole thing I still felt it was slower than it could have been.

But essentially if it’s routinely taking 7 minutes to close up an 8-car train at a quiet time of day, then this needs addressing in one way or another.

Agreed. Whether that’s timetabling or the easier options of better resourcing or processes, it needs to change.

 

[WesternBiker]

Ultimately turning trains on a 2 platform through station is a recipe for disaster and congestion especially when the service is already disrupted. It is a very clear pinch point that needs resolving one way or another.

I think you've hit the mail on the head there. Fine reversing trains at a two-platform station on quieter lines, but not on one as intensively used as that through Letchworth, especially when the knock-on effects are potentially so severe.

The layout at Cambridge isn't the easiest when things go wrong, either - as discussed up thread.

 

[Failed Unit]

As we are a little off topic - here is a new thread.

Service recovery (or lack of) on GTR Great Northern

Just starting a new thread as this one is a little off topic. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lack-of-train-crew-on-great-northern.276721/page-12#post-7205132 I see many issues that I just can’t understand happening regularly. the diagrams see to be over complex. For example 0832 Welwyn...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Chippychips]

Does anyone know of Great Northern have a "depot" at Moorgate?
Or is it just Cambridge and Hornsey?

Do you think
1. Its possible to have a Moorgate depot?
2. Having a moorgate depot would help with train crew issues?

 

[Steve Harris]

Does anyone know of Great Northern have a "depot" at Moorgate?
Or is it just Cambridge and Hornsey?

As far as I'm aware, No.

Before Thameslink joined up with GN there used to be driver depots at Peterborough, Cambridge, Kings Lynn, Hitchin, Hornsey and Kings Cross (well, that's what I got told by a driver who was a family friend). Obviously that info is out of date now and some of those probably got changed (and new ones added) when Thameslink came to town.

It would be nice to know the current state of play re driver depots and which are GN only or which one's are shared with Thameslink.

 

[bramling]

Does anyone know of Great Northern have a "depot" at Moorgate?
Or is it just Cambridge and Hornsey?

Do you think
1. Its possible to have a Moorgate depot?
2. Having a moorgate depot would help with train crew issues?

Moorgate would be risky because it would remove the ability to turn trains short or divert to King’s Cross. It would also be inefficient as there’s no rolling stock depot nearby (train crew depots tend to be most efficiently located close to where trains stable). There’s also the issue that there’s nowhere at Moorgate to put trains out the way if there’s no driver for a train, so it would result in a platform being blocked.

Finsbury Park isn’t actually a bad place to have crew changes for the Moorgate services. Terrible for the longer-distance services though.

 

[Magdalia]

Do you think
1. Its possible to have a Moorgate depot?
2. Having a moorgate depot would help with train crew issues?

A traincrew depot at Moorgate would be bonkers.

Moorgate only has 2 platforms, and no carriage sidings. The most resilient method of operation is for every train to be taken out by the same driver that brought it in, especially at peak times.

Before Thameslink joined up with GN there used to be driver depots at Peterborough, Cambridge, Kings Lynn, Hitchin, Hornsey and Kings Cross

In First Capital Connect days there were 5 traincrew depots: Kings Cross, Hitchin, Peterborough, Cambridge and Kings Lynn.

Moorgate trains were mostly worked by Kings Cross and Hitchin traincrew.

 

[GN Boy]

As far as I'm aware, No.

Before Thameslink joined up with GN there used to be driver depots at Peterborough, Cambridge, Kings Lynn, Hitchin, Hornsey and Kings Cross (well, that's what I got told by a driver who was a family friend). Obviously that info is out of date now and some of those probably got changed (and new ones added) when Thameslink came to town.

It would be nice to know the current state of play re driver depots and which are GN only or which one's are shared with Thameslink.

Peterborough, Cambridge, Welwyn and Hornsey have at least a portion of drivers that sign the TL Core as it stands.

 

[Steve Harris]

Peterborough, Cambridge, Welwyn and Hornsey have at least a portion of drivers that sign the TL Core as it stands.

Thanks.

 

[Horizon22]

A traincrew depot at Moorgate would be bonkers.

Moorgate only has 2 platforms, and no carriage sidings. The most resilient method of operation is for every train to be taken out by the same driver that brought it in, especially at peak times.

Not necessarily. Doing so means late in, late out as there are likelihood minimum turnarounds for peak services.

 

[bramling]

Not necessarily. Doing so means late in, late out as there are likelihood minimum turnarounds for peak services.

If you really wanted quick turnarounds at Moorgate, it would be possible to have a new driver join the rear cab at Finsbury Park, with the train double-ended from there to Moorgate. But not really worth the cost.

An easier way of handling disruption would be to have every journey scheduled to have a crew change at Finsbury Park on the up, and then simply reform services there as required, with the odd reversal at Drayton Park if needs be. Essentially how LU do things.

 

[Class 170101]

If you really wanted quick turnarounds at Moorgate, it would be possible to have a new driver join the rear cab at Finsbury Park, with the train double-ended from there to Moorgate. But not really worth the cost.

Stepping back at Moorgate as per many tube lines would achieve the same result?

 

[Magdalia]

Doing so means late in, late out as there are likelihood minimum turnarounds for peak services.

If you really wanted quick turnarounds at Moorgate, it would be possible to have a new driver join the rear cab at Finsbury Park, with the train double-ended from there to Moorgate. But not really worth the cost.

The turnround time at Moorgate is governed by the time it takes for the train occupying the other platform to depart and then to reoccupy the other platform with another train. Every other train has a conflicting move with arrivals in platform 9 conflicting with departures from platform 10.

The maximum train length is only 6 cars so it doesn't rake long for a driver to walk it.

 

[Horizon22]

If you really wanted quick turnarounds at Moorgate, it would be possible to have a new driver join the rear cab at Finsbury Park, with the train double-ended from there to Moorgate. But not really worth the cost.

An easier way of handling disruption would be to have every journey scheduled to have a crew change at Finsbury Park on the up, and then simply reform services there as required, with the odd reversal at Drayton Park if needs be. Essentially how LU do things.

Or have drivers "step back" to the next service. This is a more common LU/TFL method, particularly at terminals. Same principle, less risk overall.

 

[choochoochoo]

The turnround time at Moorgate is governed by the time it takes for the train occupying the other platform to depart and then to reoccupy the other platform with another train. Every other train has a conflicting move with arrivals in platform 9 conflicting with departures from platform 10.

The maximum train length is only 6 cars so it doesn't rake long for a driver to walk it.

Unless they’re walking against a wave of commuters in the peak.

 

[Magdalia]

Unless they’re walking against a wave of commuters in the peak.

Just walk along the other platform.