Landslip Near Epsom

[Deepgreen]

Couldn't see this anywhere else. The incident happened a couple of nights ago after very heavy rain. Only SWR is affected, with Southern running as usual. However, the SWR blurb put out strongly implies that Epsom is not being served by any trains at all, until the very end, when a quick mention is made of tickets being accepted on Southern! The local rag has not helped, with this (my bolds);

"A landslip closed train lines through Epsom station on Sunday (December 15), exacerbating disruption for passengers during a month-long strike by South Western Railway (SWR) workers.

A spokesperson for the rail operators said that “all lines” running through Epsom would be down until Tuesday, with Monday’s entire service in the area already allotted for the significant clean-up operation.

The landslip happened between Epsom and Ewell West stations early on Sunday."

Parochial TOC nonsense seemingly abounds! Also, what does "service in the area already allotted" mean?!

 

[gazr]

I imagine it means VSTP (Very Short Term Planning) services set up on Sunday for Monday's service between Waterloo and Ewell West which once put into the system, would cause problems if changed. Expect this situation to carry on for a week or more, with more bad weather forecast and possible location of landslip causing some headaches.

 

[Robert Carroll]

It seems that the first couple of trains in the morning are cancelled throughout between Waterloo and Epsom, as are the last couple at night, but at least some others are reversing at Ewell West. Overall, provision of information has been poor. I shall be taking the bus and Northern Line tomorrow, both ways. I was off today.

EDIT - SWR website itself seems to have more accurate information but makes no mention of the last two trains being cancelled, which the live updates show they are. Not sure if there is single line working between Worcester Park and Ewell West.

 

[Robert Carroll]

Some photos on Twitter: https://twitter.com/NetworkRailWssx Looks problematic.

 

[TEW]

Not sure if there is single line working between Worcester Park and Ewell West.

There is single line working between Worcester Park and Ewell West along the down line, with up trains using the ground frame at Worcester Park to cross back to the up line. This requires staff to operate the ground frame and a pilotman which probably explains why the service is not operating for the whole day.

 

[hwl]

I'd expect back to normal for the new year.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This is pretty much right where an immense block of flats has been built next to the line over the past year or so. Coincidence???

 

[Bald Rick]

Quite a big job, and difficult access by the looks of things. Will need piling.

 

[gazr]

Just had a look on RTT and it suggests trains are terminating at Ewell West tomorrow. Also, 2D27 needs updating in the system as it's still showing destination as Epsom.

This is pretty much right where an immense block of flats has been built next to the line over the past year or so. Coincidence???

That, or something to do with the engineering possesion in the area a few (3-4?) weeks ago?

 

[Snow1964]

This is pretty much right where an immense block of flats has been built next to the line over the past year or so. Coincidence???

No not same location, this is the wide embankment at end of back gardens in Chase End, you are thinking of the new block on corner of Chase Road and Hook Road which is about 80m nearer London

It is where the trailing point (for trains reversing in platform 2) is located, so the third rail has a gap and there are large power jumper cables which have also moved). Some of these power cables probably run to the old brick substation from the 1925 electrification by Waterloo Road

 

[Tio Terry]

Down line appears to be unaffected in the photographs, wonder why they cannot extend SLW past Ewell West to Epsom?

 

[Bald Rick]

Down line appears to be unaffected in the photographs, wonder why they cannot extend SLW past Ewell West to Epsom?

The power is off. And it would also be very complicated having Epsom station in, as the SLW would have to be into Plat 2 which conflicts with all trains heading to Sutton. Ie all movements to Sutton wouldn’t have to be halted whilst the train was en route to or from the other end of the SLW.

 

[Tio Terry]

The power is off. And it would also be very complicated having Epsom station in, as the SLW would have to be into Plat 2 which conflicts with all trains heading to Sutton. Ie all movements to Sutton wouldn’t have to be halted whilst the train was en route to or from the other end of the SLW.

Surely, in the Down direction it would be a normally signalled move in to platform 3? It would be the Up direction move on to the Down towards Ewell West that would be the only problem?

 

[Snow1964]

Surely, in the Down direction it would be a normally signalled move in to platform 3? It would be the Up direction move on to the Down towards Ewell West that would be the only problem?

The track layout at Epsom was rationalised few years ago
SW trains from Ewell West can only run into platform 2, Southern from Ewell East into platform 1
There is a diamond crossover approaching platform 2 and 3, so from platform 3 have to cross the approach to platform 2
The reason for this is all trains towards Leatherhead use the same island platform (1 & 2) regardless of where they started, which is better for passengers.

Nowadays there is no facility to return back towards London from platforms 3 or 4 as no facing crossovers allowing trains from Ewell to run into these platforms (although can reverse via a shunt using the carriage sidings at the country end).

 

[Tio Terry]

The track layout at Epsom was rationalised few years ago
SW trains from Ewell West can only run into platform 2, Southern from Ewell East into platform 1
There is a diamond crossover approaching platform 2 and 3, so from platform 3 have to cross the approach to platform 2
The reason for this is all trains towards Leatherhead use the same island platform (1 & 2) regardless of where they started, which is better for passengers.

Nowadays there is no facility to return back towards London from platforms 3 or 4 as no facing crossovers allowing trains from Ewell to run into these platforms (although can reverse via a shunt using the carriage sidings at the country end).

I guess that just goes to show how out of date I am!

Still, if trains can be normally signalled off the Down Ewell West in to platform 2, could they not be authorised to return via the route that they arrived? Surely once past the Down protecting signal then platform 3 can be used as normal so shouldn’t unduly delay Up via Sutton services?

 

[Bald Rick]

I guess that just goes to show how out of date I am!

Still, if trains can be normally signalled off the Down Ewell West in to platform 2, could they not be authorised to return via the route that they arrived? Surely once past the Down protecting signal then platform 3 can be used as normal so shouldn’t unduly delay Up via Sutton services?

Yes but that would require repeat suspensions and reintroduction of SLW. Not impossible, but rather disruptive. And any train departing Epsom P2 towards Ewell would take a minimum of 15 minutes (and probably 20) from the start of SLW being instituted until it is confirmed clear of the SLW, during which time nothing could depart Epsom for Sutton on P2.

The best that could be hoped for is an hourly service, whereas by using Ewell West a half hourly service is possible, which serves the market better. Particularly given that Epsom has alternative routes to London.

 

[Tio Terry]

Yes but that would require repeat suspensions and reintroduction of SLW. Not impossible, but rather disruptive. And any train departing Epsom P2 towards Ewell would take a minimum of 15 minutes (and probably 20) from the start of SLW being instituted until it is confirmed clear of the SLW, during which time nothing could depart Epsom for Sutton on P2.

The best that could be hoped for is an hourly service, whereas by using Ewell West a half hourly service is possible, which serves the market better. Particularly given that Epsom has alternative routes to London.

Perhaps it’s me, but why, when there is a protecting signal, do you have to wait for a train travelling Up on the Down towards Ewell West and Worcester Park to reach Worcester Park before something can leave Platform 3 towards Sutton? In normal working you rely on the same signal to protect moves off the Down from Ewell West in to Epsom Platform 2.

 

[Bald Rick]

Perhaps it’s me, but why, when there is a protecting signal, do you have to wait for a train travelling Up on the Down towards Ewell West and Worcester Park to reach Worcester Park before something can leave Platform 3 towards Sutton? In normal working you rely on the same signal to protect moves off the Down from Ewell West in to Epsom Platform 2.

Because under SLW the signalling is not to be relied upon.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

No not same location, this is the wide embankment at end of back gardens in Chase End, you are thinking of the new block on corner of Chase Road and Hook Road which is about 80m nearer London

80m is more than close enough for that block to have an effect given the weight of it; it takes up the entire former SixT site, including the garages at the back. It's also been built literally right up to the foot of the embankment so it's slightly wider than what the site looks like in the screenshot from Google Maps below.

Incidentally, at the right of the screenshot where the line crosses the B284; that's the bridge in my recent thread about bridge structures.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/victorian-arch-bridges.191492/

There is a history of movement along several miles of this line; 5 or 6 years ago there was a prolonged closure because of a major slippage between Stoneleigh and Worcester Park and going back a bit further a bridge between Ewell West and Stoneleigh, over the Hogsmill River, had to be rebuilt after many years of a water seepage problem and repeated repairs in the previous few years - including one emergency repair about thirty years ago.

 

[Bald Rick]

80m is more than close enough for that block to have an effect given the weight of it; it takes up the entire former SixT site, including the garages at the back. It's also been built literally right up to the foot of the embankment so it's slightly wider than what the site looks like in the screenshot from Google Maps below.

Incidentally, at the right of the screenshot where the line crosses the B284; that's the bridge in my recent thread about bridge structures.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/victorian-arch-bridges.191492/

There is a history of movement along several miles of this line; 5 or 6 years ago there was a prolonged closure because of a major slippage between Stoneleigh and Worcester Park and going back a bit further a bridge between Ewell West and Stoneleigh, over the Hogsmill River, had to be rebuilt after many years of a water seepage problem and repeated repairs in the previous few years - including one emergency repair about thirty years ago.

View attachment 71695

It’s close enough, but if it was to cause damage it would most likely to have been when the foundations went in. Let’s see what the report says when it comes out.

 

[Tomnick]

Yes but that would require repeat suspensions and reintroduction of SLW. Not impossible, but rather disruptive. And any train departing Epsom P2 towards Ewell would take a minimum of 15 minutes (and probably 20) from the start of SLW being instituted until it is confirmed clear of the SLW, during which time nothing could depart Epsom for Sutton on P2.

The best that could be hoped for is an hourly service, whereas by using Ewell West a half hourly service is possible, which serves the market better. Particularly given that Epsom has alternative routes to London.

Assuming that it was set up as conventional SLW rather than to the point of obstruction (which it’d have to be), and that the single line was defined as being to/from the trailing crossover (which would normally be the case, although special instructions might specify otherwise), you’d just need to make the arrangements to get the train from the platform onto the single line - once it’s clear of the junction, there’s nothing in the regs preventing trains from using other routes through the junction.

Repeatedly withdrawing and reimplementing SLW is certainly to be frowned upon - I’ve heard it suggested as a solution to a ‘wrong ended’ Pilotman before and it’s just asking for trouble!

 

[Bald Rick]

Assuming that it was set up as conventional SLW rather than to the point of obstruction (which it’d have to be), and that the single line was defined as being to/from the trailing crossover (which would normally be the case, although special instructions might specify otherwise), you’d just need to make the arrangements to get the train from the platform onto the single line - once it’s clear of the junction, there’s nothing in the regs preventing trains from using other routes through the junction.

Repeatedly withdrawing and reimplementing SLW is certainly to be frowned upon - I’ve heard it suggested as a solution to a ‘wrong ended’ Pilotman before and it’s just asking for trouble!

Agreed on both counts. In this case the move out of Epsom P2 would be non-signalled wrong line.

 

[Tomnick]

Agreed on both counts. In this case the move out of Epsom P2 would be non-signalled wrong line.

Indeed - that’s almost always the case with SLW when entering the single line in the wrong direction. I concede that it’s rather more of an issue with a busy, relatively complex layout like this, not so much the margin to make the move but rather the risk (and workload) in doing so!

 

[Tio Terry]

Because under SLW the signalling is not to be relied upon.

Whilst I know you are right, I do sometimes wonder if the industry makes things more difficult than they need to be. There’s no suggestion that there is anything wrong with the signalling in the area, even if detection is lost on the points it’s a right side protected failure.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Personally , quite impressed that what I knew as "Section N -working to the point of obstruction" has been implemented - certainly helps the cause by getting some passengers nearer home. Proper railway work.

Once did it on the slow lines Tring to Leighton Buzzard on the down slow WCML (and unable to access Bletchley due to an unfortunately derailed tamper under the flyover) , while it did not save the peak - about 6 passenger trains were dealt with , with very few complaints arising. People could see an effort was made.

 

[Deepgreen]

The track layout at Epsom was rationalised few years ago
SW trains from Ewell West can only run into platform 2, Southern from Ewell East into platform 1
There is a diamond crossover approaching platform 2 and 3, so from platform 3 have to cross the approach to platform 2
The reason for this is all trains towards Leatherhead use the same island platform (1 & 2) regardless of where they started, which is better for passengers.

Nowadays there is no facility to return back towards London from platforms 3 or 4 as no facing crossovers allowing trains from Ewell to run into these platforms (although can reverse via a shunt using the carriage sidings at the country end).

Not being pedantic, but it's a diamond crossing - a crossover involves points and would give more route options.

 

[Bald Rick]

Whilst I know you are right, I do sometimes wonder if the industry makes things more difficult than they need to be. There’s no suggestion that there is anything wrong with the signalling in the area, even if detection is lost on the points it’s a right side protected failure.

As it happens the crossover just London side of Epsom is damaged,and therefore the points detection should not be relied upon.

 

[Deepgreen]

As it happens the crossover just London side of Epsom is damaged,and therefore the points detection should not be relied upon.

How did that happen - surely not in the derailment there several years ago?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I am reminded on this thread , of a post mortem by senior operators from warm offices , with track plans and the benefit of plenty of time to assess "what should have been done" , on a certain Peter Rayner - a very , very senior Operations person , who one horrible wet and cold night dealt with a points failure outside Liverpool Street and got the service moving (albeit with some difficulty) - others thought he could have done better and said so.

My comment above about "good job" in keeping some of the railway going holds in my view - keep it simple and easy. Get (in this case) - most of your passengers home and get the engineers on the case which they clearly are. Discussion about "why cannot you do this with "x" set of points" is really futile in my personal opinion. Especially when South Western have bigger issues to concern themselves with.

 

[Deepgreen]

The track layout at Epsom was rationalised few years ago
SW trains from Ewell West can only run into platform 2, Southern from Ewell East into platform 1
There is a diamond crossover approaching platform 2 and 3, so from platform 3 have to cross the approach to platform 2
The reason for this is all trains towards Leatherhead use the same island platform (1 & 2) regardless of where they started, which is better for passengers.

Nowadays there is no facility to return back towards London from platforms 3 or 4 as no facing crossovers allowing trains from Ewell to run into these platforms (although can reverse via a shunt using the carriage sidings at the country end).

I think this was actually a few decades ago! I lived at Epsom from 1987 and the layout had already been changed by then (there used to be two tracks over the central road bridge, for example, giving a connection between p2 and the up Victoria route). Apologies if I've overlooked a more recent track rationalisation.