Landslips, is there anything available to warn us of potential.

[Swanny200]

Obviously we have seen a few landslips the past few days resulting in the loss of 3 lives in one case, severe damage that will take in some cases weeks if not months to fix.

It has been mentioned that NR has drones and a helicopter amongst it's assets to scan for potential trouble, is there another option?
Do NR use satellite data from the Met Office for example which although it is better than it was in 1988 for instance but it can still be unreliable, numerous places have been found similar to Carmont that has potential to cause issue in future and no matter how much you "shore up" these spots, unless you want to scrap and rebuild a railway line away from the original and in some cases victorian alignment which is both financially constraining and destructive the potential is still there when the next big storm hits which nowadays seems like it could be the norm.

Is there any other way of monitoring like sensor systems that can transmit data back to the local network centre or in the case of Carmont back to the 24 hour manned box about a mile away, I know there is a GSM-R tower between the box and the accident site so can a sensor be wired up to the local GSM-R tower to feed back data for someone in NR to advise.

It is all well and good having aerial assets but if they are in the field elsewhere maybe some kind of remote monitoring is the way to go, unless they already have a way of doing it and it somehow failed on the day, but I doubt it.

How easy would it be to implement, can it just be wired alongside the cabling for the signals for instance or is there a chance of interference, I am not a PW or S&T person so I wouldn't know where to start or if there is such a method in place.

I know sensors have been used before IIRC there are some in Strood Tunnel which has had it's fair share of issues/

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes there are monitoring systems available and in use, we mentioned it in the Weather resilience thread in “infrastructure“ a couple of days ago.

Weather resilience

Here is a new thread about weather resilience in response to the Stonehaven derailment thread. brad465 wrote: If rainfall is hard and sudden enough it could be enough to cause a landslide on an otherwise stable bank. Whether the technology for detection exists or not, I would not be surprised...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[bspahh]

The Environment Agency has a network of sensors for the water levels at rivers and streams https://flood-warning-information.service.gov.uk/river-and-sea-levels

You can get updated satelite images with different wavelengths of light from places like https://eos.com/lv/

You might be able to use those to identify when someone needs to take a look at an embankment

 

[Swanny200]

Yes there are monitoring systems available and in use, we mentioned it in the Weather resilience thread in “infrastructure“ a couple of days ago.

Weather resilience

Here is a new thread about weather resilience in response to the Stonehaven derailment thread. brad465 wrote: If rainfall is hard and sudden enough it could be enough to cause a landslide on an otherwise stable bank. Whether the technology for detection exists or not, I would not be surprised...

www.railforums.co.uk

I happened to have just stumbled upon that post, thing is that sort of sensor would probably need to be hard wired somehow as it was already proved that the HST was in a deadspot for phone signal and possibly GSM-R even though there is a tower not much further along.

 

[Irascible]

I did once muse on the idea that you could fly a small drone a mile or so ahead of every service - we're not quite there yet technology wise but it doesn't seem the worst idea ever.

Satellite data has the obvious problem of aside from not being 100% area coverage, that the times you probably need it most for watching for landslips are likely to be thick cloud. I *think* LIDAR can see through cloud somewhat but what it does to accuracy someone who actually knows will have to tell you. You'd have problems mapping fast enough too, I think.

Should be a nice academic project for someone to automatically pick out at-risk areas from satellite data ( alternatively, does the NMT scan sideways too? ).

 

[coppercapped]

This Network Rail web page summarises NR's activities in the maintenance of cuttings and embankments.

 

[Swanny200]

This Network Rail web page summarises NR's activities in the maintenance of cuttings and embankments.

The next question is then was there such a system installed at Carmont?, According to NR's website: "Where we know that sites are at risk of landslip, we use motion sensors and CCTV to detect soil and rock movement. These sensors send an alarm to the signaller, who will stop the train if alerted and wait until the area has been inspected by engineers."

According to reports it was a well known site for landslips, there had already been one further down (whether or not that was in a risk site too, we may not know) that had been reported to the signaller by the 158 travelling up from Montrose, does there need to be another set of data like a rainfall data or some other parameter that needs to be considered that can help in future.

The railways are not foolproof, neither are NR, this is the first on train fatality in years and proof that the railways are run well in that respect but if we can improve that then we need to.

 

[PR1Berske]

As ever, no system is foolproof for such a geologically mixed island as ours. Drones will be a vital part of the story at a future date, and can be useful now, though it will take much investment at great cost to get where the industry needs to be.

 

[HSTEd]

I suppose you could try universal CCTV coverage of every section of track.

Would get rather expensive though.

 

[Ken H]

On the carinlarach - oban stretch, are there not signal wires along the bottom the the cutting attached to semaphore signals. The signals are at clear but if the wires are moved by an earthslip, the signals go to danger
Dont know if they are still there.
Think there is a pic in a forum members icon.

 

[30907]

According to reports it was a well known site for landslips, there had already been one further down (whether or not that was in a risk site too, we may not know) that had been reported to the signaller by the 158 travelling up from Montrose,

I can't find any relating to the accident site or the line as a whole.

On the carinlarach - oban stretch, are there not signal wires along the bottom the the cutting attached to semaphore signals. The signals are at clear but if the wires are moved by an earthslip, the signals go to danger
Dont know if they are still there.
Think there is a pic in a forum members icon.

There are.

 

[snookertam]

Yes good point about the Falls of Cruachan stone signals which are there to protect against rockfall, although ironically failed to prevent the Falls of Cruachan derailment in 2010 but I’ve no doubt have proven their worth on many occasions. A similar set up, possibly modernised, may be useful on similarly high risk cuttings and embankments for landslides, but I’m not sure all such locations could be covered? It would be some size of project if it was.

It’s also common place in Scotland, and possibly elsewhere too, for preventative action to be taken in advance of windstorms. NR Scotland make use of advanced weather forecasting when major storms come in to make decisions on whether the service gets curtailed or not. Given that localised heavy rainfall and flooding may become more prevalent, we might find this being used to curtail services or impose blanket speed restrictions.

I think a measure such as this or similar will be an immediate outcome from the Carmont tragedy and we may even find NR Scotland operations control doing so off their own back prior to any guidance from above, should any similar scenarios occur prior to the outcome of the RAIB investigation. I think an abundance of caution will be understood by all concerned in this situation.

 

[Dr Hoo]

R112011-110714-Falls-of-Cruachan.pdf takes you to the RAIB report, including a picture of the seriously derailed Sprinter with one of the special 'stone signals' in shot.

 

[HSTEd]

Ultimately the only foolproof way to prevent these incidents would be to rebuild the lines entirely in tunnel or similar, where such movements do not tend to occur except after major earthquakes - which are rare enough that accidents could be avoided by simply ordering all trains to stop immediately upon an earthquake being detected.

 

[BrianW]

The report linked to at #6 (Earthworks Technical Strategy) is excellent- thank you Coppercapped.
There are many illustrations and it's a good reminder about how we cannot anticipate everything.
Most railway infrastructure is old and designed (if at all) with limited knowledge of geotechnology.
Current sensor technology has its limitations.
There are many locations where the impact of derailment would be much higher- eg many urban areas.
Risk-free is impossible .Even staying at home is dangerous.
Work to date has 'worked-' last fatality years ago; we are in danger of pushing up costs even more when rail is already so much safer than road.
Of course some will be thinking 'I saw it coming'; the report recognises this: 'The belief that an event such as a landslip is more predictable after it became known, than it was before it became known can be referred to as hindsight bias (Roese 2012). Hindsight bias in the field of slope stability can lead an individual to believe that an incident was more predictable and less uncertain than it actually was (Lee 2015)' (p57).
'The detection of such rapid failures is our top geotechnical challenge' (p44).

Congrats and encouragement to all involved with keeping us as safe as we are.

 

[randyrippley]

I did once muse on the idea that you could fly a small drone a mile or so ahead of every service - we're not quite there yet technology wise but it doesn't seem the worst idea ever.

Satellite data has the obvious problem of aside from not being 100% area coverage, that the times you probably need it most for watching for landslips are likely to be thick cloud. I *think* LIDAR can see through cloud somewhat but what it does to accuracy someone who actually knows will have to tell you. You'd have problems mapping fast enough too, I think.

Should be a nice academic project for someone to automatically pick out at-risk areas from satellite data ( alternatively, does the NMT scan sideways too? ).

Ground penetrating radar from satellite, drone or aerostat would work. Just need to check the differences on a regular basis. If it works for detecting buried roadside bombs, discovering changed soil conditions should be easy

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Ground penetrating radar from satellite, drone or aerostat would work. Just need to check the differences on a regular basis. If it works for detecting buried roadside bombs, discovering changed soil conditions should be easy

SAR (Synthetic Apiture Radar) is available easily from Airborne or satellite platforms. GPR less so

 

[30907]

It’s also common place in Scotland, and possibly elsewhere too, for preventative action to be taken in advance of windstorms. NR Scotland make use of advanced weather forecasting when major storms come in to make decisions on whether the service gets curtailed or not. Given that localised heavy rainfall and flooding may become more prevalent, we might find this being used to curtail services or impose blanket speed restrictions.

I think a measure such as this or similar will be an immediate outcome from the Carmont tragedy and we may even find NR Scotland operations control doing so off their own back prior to any guidance from above, should any similar scenarios occur prior to the outcome of the RAIB investigation. I think an abundance of caution will be understood by all concerned in this situation.

Precautions for storms are commonplace across Northern Europe (with the usual responses on enthusiast forums about overreaction. Thunderstorms are more difficult to account for, often being localised and short-lived. There was IIRC a Met office yellow warning for almost the whole of the UK on the night before the accident - difficult to think what a proportionate response might be...

 

[snookertam]

Precautions for storms are commonplace across Northern Europe (with the usual responses on enthusiast forums about overreaction. Thunderstorms are more difficult to account for, often being localised and short-lived. There was IIRC a Met office yellow warning for almost the whole of the UK on the night before the accident - difficult to think what a proportionate response might be...

There was, but the weather pattern that caused this had moved right up the East of Scotland overnight, and had already caused significant damage to the infrastructure in those areas. Not suggesting that anyone at control could or should have done anything different, as it’s difficult to appreciate what pressures they were under on Wednesday morning, but hindsight suggests that perhaps the service could have been suspended until the heavy rain had cleared north - but to do so with confidence would have required real time forecasting being available. All ifs buts and maybes, but if we believe these events will be more common place we perhaps need to use the technology that’s out there.

 

[Ken H]

There was, but the weather pattern that caused this had moved right up the East of Scotland overnight, and had already caused significant damage to the infrastructure in those areas. Not suggesting that anyone at control could or should have done anything different, as it’s difficult to appreciate what pressures they were under on Wednesday morning, but hindsight suggests that perhaps the service could have been suspended until the heavy rain had cleared north - but to do so with confidence would have required real time forecasting being available. All ifs buts and maybes, but if we believe these events will be more common place we perhaps need to use the technology that’s out there.

we dont know the speed of the train when it hot the landslide. maybe in sever weather a blanket speed restriction should be considered. But a landslip can occur some time after the storm has passed. How long would it be proportionate to keep a speed restriction in place after a rain pulse?

Landslips usually occur between boundaries of 2 layers. perhaps with water in the boundary lubricating it, thus allowing a slip. ground engineers will know where such soil/geological conditions apply and therefore prioritise measure in those locations.

 

[Swanny200]

I did also wonder yesterday when looking at things, the 158 that came before the 125 on that stretch of line was terminated at Stonehaven, was it not due to go further to Aberdeen so the question is was there any more landslips further up the line? the next question is also (may sound stupid) but would vibration from that 158 going past the accident site have caused the landslip seeing as it had been dislodged between the 158 going past and the 125 colliding with it?

 

[Ken H]

Just seen the new pics on the stonehaven derailment closed thread (link - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stonehaven-derailment.207648/page-33#post-4722368) showing the landslip
Actually, it looks like stones have washed down the hillside by a flooded burn and been dumped on the tracks in a sort of delta.
not sure how that would be detected automatically....
possibly a culvert that was overwhelmed or blocked with debris.

Roger ford said accidents are caused by the interaction between Sods law and Murpheys law.

1 If something can go wrong it will
2 It will always happen at the worst possible time.

A bit cynical, but sadly true in this case.

 

[edwin_m]

Actually, it looks like stones have washed down the hillside by a flooded burn and been dumped on the tracks in a sort of delta.
not sure how that would be detected automatically....
possibly a culvert that was overwhelmed or blocked with debris.

You could have a detector on a short post, embedded not very far into the ground and alerting when it got suddenly tilted.

 

[30907]

we dont know the speed of the train when it hot the landslide. maybe in sever weather a blanket speed restriction should be considered. But a landslip can occur some time after the storm has passed. How long would it be proportionate to keep a speed restriction in place after a rain pulse?

Standard practice is for NR to impose a blanket 50mph in severe weather (though not for yellow warnings AFAIK). We don't know 1T08 was doing as much as that.

I did also wonder yesterday when looking at things, the 158 that came before the 125 on that stretch of line was terminated at Stonehaven, was it not due to go further to Aberdeen so the question is was there any more landslips further up the line?

There was certainly one (a collapsed wall ISTR) beyond Aberdeen, and the train was headed for Inverurie.

 

[Swanny200]

Standard practices for NR to impose a blanket 50mph in severe weather (though not for yellow warnings AFAIK). We don't know 1T08 was doing as much as that.


There was certainly one (a collapsed wall ISTR) beyond Aberdeen, and the train was headed for Inverurie.

I have surmised previously that I don't think 1T08 was going Linespeed let alone 50mph, from the crossover to the accident site, would it be possible in the reported weather to get up to speed in that amount of time? as for the 158 I knew it wasn't going to Stonehaven and couldn't remember if it was Aberdeen or Inverurie it was terminating at, I would have thought Aberdeen being the bigger station would have been an easier place to terminate which was why I asked if there was something between Stonehaven and Aberdeen too that may have been reported.

 

[BrianW]

Paragraphs 36 and 37 of this document relate to landslips etc. It's the one referred to by Grant Shapps I think:

Annual health and safety report of performance on Britain's railways: 2019-20 | Office of Rail and Road

orr.gov.uk

and this one has lots to say on the subject:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Earthworks-Technical-Strategy.pdf

I think quite a lot more is known than has been done? Maintenance has never been 'sexy'. Expect 'action'- a review of risk assessments at least. Something must be seen to be being done.

BTW- might the Measurement Train have a role?