Language Mangling

[GNER 91128]

Has anyone mentioned: "Don't hesitate to find myself or another member of the crew"?

 

[Dr_Paul]

At least in your part of the GWR empire you are spared... "Please be aware, you can only bring a bicycle, on this service, if you have booked beforehand." (To be repeated at least twice, for every train.)

There's an intriguing grammatical and perhaps legal point here. One 'can' bring a bike on to a train even if one hasn't booked beforehand, unless somebody or something physically prevents one from so doing. What is meant is that one 'may' not do it, as a reservation is required. It would be interesting to see how that would stand in court, if someone were to take it that far. Southwest Trains prohibit people from taking bikes on many rush-hour services; the timetables say: 'Passengers travelling with cycles may not join or leave services at stations with train times shown in red.'

 

[Deepgreen]

There's an intriguing grammatical and perhaps legal point here. One 'can' bring a bike on to a train even if one hasn't booked beforehand, unless somebody or something physically prevents one from so doing. What is meant is that one 'may' not do it, as a reservation is required. It would be interesting to see how that would stand in court, if someone were to take it that far. Southwest Trains prohibit people from taking bikes on many rush-hour services; the timetables say: 'Passengers travelling with cycles may not join or leave services at stations with train times shown in red.'

Noting also that the only possible way to book anything is "beforehand".
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Since announcements were introduced, accidents have dropped by over 20%.

When were announcements introduced? Were they all introduced at the same time? If not, which ones have caused the drop in accidents, and which accidents? It must be impossible to know and any claims of a correlation must therefore be badly flawed.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Noting also that the only possible way to book anything is "beforehand".

Indeed! Well done for spotting my accidental tautology.

 

[EM2]

When were announcements introduced? Were they all introduced at the same time? If not, which ones have caused the drop in accidents, and which accidents? It must be impossible to know and any claims of a correlation must therefore be badly flawed.

With regard to St Pancras LL which was the part that I had emboldened in the post that I replied to, the announcements were introduced in early 2014, if I remember rightly, and they were the only ones I was referring to.
So it isn't impossible to know at all.

 

[Deepgreen]

With regard to St Pancras LL which was the part that I had emboldened in the post that I replied to, the announcements were introduced in early 2014, if I remember rightly, and they were the only ones I was referring to.
So it isn't impossible to know at all.

Strangely, I had completely missed your emboldening - so my apologies.
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My GWR guard last evening added further elements of irritation when she announced (paraphrased) that "This is the 1743 to Reading. This evening we will be calling at....and we will be terminating this evening at Reading, where our scheduled arrival time is approximately xxxx."

My emboldenings - yet more pointless words included to 'frill up' the message - with the strong implication that the stopping pattern and terminus were unique to yesterday's journey (and including the delightful approximate scheduled time)!

 

[Calthrop]

"Please be aware, you can only bring a bicycle, on this service, if you have booked beforehand."

Noting also that the only possible way to book anything is "beforehand".

Indeed! Well done for spotting my accidental tautology.

To offer a contrarian thought, on an admittedly very small point: I don't find referring to "booking beforehand" -- not in a "spoken" context, anyway -- all that heinous. There are times, I feel, when a bit of extra, not-strictly-necessary "wordage" can humanise instructions / directions, and make them feel less cold and curt. What is correct in terms of strict one-word-one-job pedantry, can come across as a bit harsh and abrasive. I'm put in mind of silly-clever schoolmasters with tunnel vision, castigating pupils for, say, writing about a historical or literary character "finally dying" -- "how else can one die?"

This is language -- with room for the odd, sometimes positive, flourish -- not mathetics or science, where everything has to be 100% consistent and accurate and terse; and we're people, not Vulcans or robots.

 

[Deepgreen]

To offer a contrarian thought, on an admittedly very small point: I don't find referring to "booking beforehand" -- not in a "spoken" context, anyway -- all that heinous. There are times, I feel, when a bit of extra, not-strictly-necessary "wordage" can humanise instructions / directions, and make them feel less cold and curt. What is correct in terms of strict one-word-one-job pedantry, can come across as a bit harsh and abrasive. I'm put in mind of silly-clever schoolmasters with tunnel vision, castigating pupils for, say, writing about a historical or literary character "finally dying" -- "how else can one die?"

This is language -- with room for the odd, sometimes positive, flourish -- not mathetics or science, where everything has to be 100% consistent and accurate and terse; and we're people, not Vulcans or robots.

Absolutely, but in many contexts (generally, public arenas), avoiding verbiage is (I think) very desirable, not least as it leaves time for the important stuff and tends to avoid so many people 'tuning out' altogether. There's a difference between pedantry and clarity through proper use of language.

 

[Phil.]

Has anyone mentioned: "Don't hesitate to find myself or another member of the crew"?

Yes, I have. I always thought that only Budhists and the like found themselves.
In slammer days there used to be little stickers on SWR trains that stated, "save us time, save your time. Please close the door. No-one seemed bothered by the fact that "us" should have read "our".

 

[oldman]

In slammer days there used to be little stickers on SWR trains that stated, "save us time, save your time. Please close the door. No-one seemed bothered by the fact that "us" should have read "our".

Probably because they knew that 'save us time' is standard idiomatic English; 'waste us time' would be non-standard (I think).

But as I am being pedantic, I think that 'To comply with legislation and in the interests of health and safety, this station has a no-smoking policy' should really be 'smoking policy' - the policy being to forbid it - though the whole sentence is redundant.

 

[Calthrop]

To offer a contrarian thought, on an admittedly very small point: I don't find referring to "booking beforehand" -- not in a "spoken" context, anyway -- all that heinous. There are times, I feel, when a bit of extra, not-strictly-necessary "wordage" can humanise instructions / directions, and make them feel less cold and curt. What is correct in terms of strict one-word-one-job pedantry, can come across as a bit harsh and abrasive. I'm put in mind of silly-clever schoolmasters with tunnel vision, castigating pupils for, say, writing about a historical or literary character "finally dying" -- "how else can one die?"

This is language -- with room for the odd, sometimes positive, flourish -- not mathetics or science, where everything has to be 100% consistent and accurate and terse; and we're people, not Vulcans or robots.

Absolutely, but in many contexts (generally, public arenas), avoiding verbiage is (I think) very desirable, not least as it leaves time for the important stuff and tends to avoid so many people 'tuning out' altogether. There's a difference between pedantry and clarity through proper use of language.

A difficult line to tread, to get the best response -- between "Gauleiter barking orders", leading to natural human reaction, " *** you and whatever you're trying to tell me to do: I'll do the opposite"; and kindly message getting a bit verbose, leading to natural human reaction of tuning-out. Our American friends tend to refer to handling our own species, as "herding cats" -- I think they've got something there.

 

[anme]

Probably because they knew that 'save us time' is standard idiomatic English; 'waste us time' would be non-standard (I think).

"save us time" seems OK and not idiomatic to me. Making a complete sentence like "Ticket machines save us time":
Subject: "Ticket machines" <- The thing doing the saving ("what saves time?")
Verb: "save" <- transitive verb, i.e. can take objects
Direct object: "time" <- The thing that is being saved ("what do ticket machines save?")
Indirect object: "us" <- The thing that for whom the saving is done ("for whom is time saved?")

Compare with "she gives us the present".

"Ticket machines waste us time" indeed sounds wrong, I think because "to waste" doesn't normally take indirect objects?

 

[sheff1]

"Ticket machines waste us time" indeed sounds wrong..

Unless you are in West Yorkshire, where "us" is commonly used instead of "our". As in "We should put us names on us rover tickets".

 

[urbophile]

I'm all for politeness, but 'please change here for xxx' seems a bit pointless. If you want to go to xxx you will change whether you are kindly entreated or not. It's sort of implying that you really should go to xxx even if you weren't planning to.

A bit like 'dogs must be carried on escalators'.

 

[Calthrop]

A bit like 'dogs must be carried on escalators'.

With entrepreneurs at the bottom of the escalators, hiring dogs to the passengers...

 

[Deepgreen]

Southern's latest gem talks of "festive train services" (see attached extract from their web site) - will the trains be decorated, with the crews giving out presents?!


Train services - Christmas 2016 and New Year 2017

National Rail have published summary information about festive train services across the country this Christmas and New Year.

 

[adrock1976]

One that narks me slightly is the London Midland website.

It uses all lower case letters in placenames. When I was at primary school (albeit many moons ago), placenames always begin with a capital letter.

The website gives the impression that it is an organisation that could not care less at all.