Large towns with poor or very poor off-peak services

[nw1]

(Split off from the Sunday thread...)

Here's a related thread to the Sunday thread, namely main stations for large towns which remained open throughout (no Beeching closures) but in modern times (which I'm arbitrarily defining as 1965 onwards, roughly the time of Beeching and the end of the steam era) went through periods of having poor or very poor services off-peak on weekdays.

Starting with Newbury: Newbury's midday provision in 1967 is, well, not great (see timetableworld.com; sorry no direct link).

Decent enough peak service - but - three-hour gaps in both the up and down service for a town that size and within 1hr15m of London even then is frankly bizarre. I remember even in the 80s Newbury had a fairly poor service but not quite that bad; I think in 1984 alternate HSTs to the West Country stopped, and that combined with a 2-hourly DMU would at least give an hourly service.

Maybe Newbury was only a very small town then? I remember it was pretty large by 1979 but it does look like it has a lot of late-60s, early-70s housing.

And intermediate stations between Reading West and Newbury were closed even on Saturdays! Looks like they were lucky not to be 'Beechinged'. Surprisingly, though, rural Kintbury did get a service on Saturday, and not a terrible one at that. Odd that Theale, Thatcham etc had nothing on Saturday but Kintbury did.

 

[gg1]

In the 70s and 80s Bromsgrove was one step above parliamentary, having only a handful of services each day.

Table 11 of this 1973 timetable shows 2 services northbound and 3 southbound per day, IIRC the late 80s provision was marginally better but still very poor.
https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer?token=66d160cc-d943-40f6-be38-842d1602845c

 

[Taunton]

I've just written on another thread about using Kilmarnock in the 1980s, when service was absolutely minimalist - for a town not dissimilar in size then to Taunton. I waited more than an hour weekday mid-afternoon, and my train was the only movement. The quite substantial station seemed to have been reduced to one platform in use, the onetime Down Main.

Similarly, at the time, Hartlepool, a far larger town, had I think one hourly dmu service each way, and that was it. Again reduced to just the Down Main platform in use. Might have even been unstaffed.

 

[Falcon1200]

The Oxford/Worcester line service in the early 1970s was appalling. In the May 71 to April 72 TT, for example, the first Down train of the day from Oxford was at 0925, the 0810 from Paddington. And there were three hour gaps in the timetable, eg no Down train from Oxford after the 0925 until 1221 (1115 from Paddington); In the Up direction, no train from Worcester between 0900 and 1215. Today there is an hourly service, and the first train from Oxford is the 0510 !

The trains were certainly more interesting then, being hauled by Warships, Hymeks (or 31s - the ultimate insult to the route ?) but today's service is far better.

 

[nw1]

The Oxford/Worcester line service in the early 1970s was appalling. In the May 71 to April 72 TT, for example, the first Down train of the day from Oxford was at 0925, the 0810 from Paddington. And there were three hour gaps in the timetable, eg no Down train from Oxford after the 0925 until 1221 (1115 from Paddington); In the Up direction, no train from Worcester between 0900 and 1215. Today there is an hourly service, and the first train from Oxford is the 0510 !

The trains were certainly more interesting then, being hauled by Warships, Hymeks (or 31s - the ultimate insult to the route ?) but today's service is far better.

I guess to be fair Worcester had a much better service to Birmingham (at a guess) which would be its regional centre; I am thinking of towns where literally the only service had substantial gaps.

Even still the first down service did seem very late! I guess you'd go via Birmingham if you wanted anything earlier.

I do remember the Worcester line being almost entirely DMUs from Oxford in the 80s, with one through HST in the daytime (the 'Cotswold and Malvern Express', doubtless a convenient 'fill-in turn' during the day) and a couple of evening peak down hauled services (one being the 'Cathedrals Express'). Not sure when the first train was though. These were also the days when 'Handborough' only had one train a day...

 

[Sprinter107]

I guess to be fair Worcester had a much better service to Birmingham (at a guess) which would be its regional centre; I am thinking of towns where literally the only service had substantial gaps.

Even still the first down service did seem very late! I guess you'd go via Birmingham if you wanted anything earlier.

I do remember the Worcester line being almost entirely DMUs from Oxford in the 80s, with one through HST in the daytime (the 'Cotswold and Malvern Express', doubtless a convenient 'fill-in turn' during the day) and a couple of evening peak down hauled services (one being the 'Cathedrals Express'). Not sure when the first train was though. These were also the days when 'Handborough' only had one train a day...

The train service between Worcester and Birmingham in the 1970s wasn't the greatest. Via Kidderminster was mostly peaks, others went via Bromsgrove, but didn't all call there. Likewise, there were some quite big gaps on the Malvern and Hereford route.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I've just written on another thread about using Kilmarnock in the 1980s, when service was absolutely minimalist - for a town not dissimilar in size then to Taunton. I waited more than an hour weekday mid-afternoon, and my train was the only movement. The quite substantial station seemed to have been reduced to one platform in use, the onetime Down Main.

Was Kilmarnock in the 80s as bad as it was in the mid 70's - I'd need to check a TT but my memory says, daytime three southbound Anglo Scots - Euston, St Pancras (both a.m.) and Leeds (16.10 ex GLC) - and two DMUs to Carlisle (one at 12.xx and the other 17.30 from Central) then a second gap of 4 hours plus until the 3 overnights -2 Euston (1 Sleepers only) and 1 to Nottingham. Similar going the other way.

 

[Taunton]

Kilmarnock was probably worse in the 1980s, as the Anglo-Scottish trains had gone, it was just a handful per day from Glasgow to Carlisle, and I think just a couple of peak hour trains to Glasgow. There were long periods in the day with nothing at all - even gaps of several hours to Glasgow.

 

[Rescars]

The Oxford/Worcester line service in the early 1970s was appalling. In the May 71 to April 72 TT, for example, the first Down train of the day from Oxford was at 0925, the 0810 from Paddington. And there were three hour gaps in the timetable, eg no Down train from Oxford after the 0925 until 1221 (1115 from Paddington); In the Up direction, no train from Worcester between 0900 and 1215. Today there is an hourly service, and the first train from Oxford is the 0510 !

The trains were certainly more interesting then, being hauled by Warships, Hymeks (or 31s - the ultimate insult to the route ?) but today's service is far better.

There were also some 47s too, but the variety of traction was no substitute for the paucity of trains. It was not unusual to drive from Malvern to Swindon to find a convenient train to get to London. I remember the advent of the 31s after the Hymeks were withdrawn - and their being referred to by station staff as "Tiny Tim off the Midland"!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Kilmarnock was probably worse in the 1980s, as the Anglo-Scottish trains had gone, it was just a handful per day from Glasgow to Carlisle, and I think just a couple of peak hour trains to Glasgow. There were long periods in the day with nothing at all - even gaps of several hours to Glasgow.

Not all that brilliant today. Only two trains calling at Kilmarnock in a Southbound direction to Carlisle on a Sunday. Nothing towards Ayr. Admittedly a broadly hourly service to Glasgow Central (13 in total) however.

 

[Falcon1200]

Not all that brilliant today. Only two trains calling at Kilmarnock in a Southbound direction to Carlisle on a Sunday. Nothing towards Ayr. Admittedly a broadly hourly service to Glasgow Central (13 in total) however.

The poor Sunday service between Kilmarnock and Dumfries is strange, given the improvements made to Sunday timetables elsewhere. But maybe Scotrail think 'who wants to go to New Cumnock or Sanquhar on a Sunday anyway' - Understandable perhaps !

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Was Kilmarnock in the 80s as bad as it was in the mid 70's - I'd need to check a TT but my memory says, daytime three southbound Anglo Scots - Euston, St Pancras (both a.m.) and Leeds (16.10 ex GLC) - and two DMUs to Carlisle (one at 12.xx and the other 17.30 from Central) then a second gap of 4 hours plus until the 3 overnights -2 Euston (1 Sleepers only) and 1 to Nottingham. Similar going the other way.

Kilmarnock was probably worse in the 1980s, as the Anglo-Scottish trains had gone, it was just a handful per day from Glasgow to Carlisle, and I think just a couple of peak hour trains to Glasgow. There were long periods in the day with nothing at all - even gaps of several hours to Glasgow.

I've just checked the May 1974 offering
Times ex Glasgow Central:
07.15 Euston
09.55 St Pancras
12.30 Carlisle - this was LMR DMU out and back from Carlisle and provided the first up train of the day at Dunlop and Stewarton - the two down trains had already left - quite an uplift to todays 2 per hour in each direction!
16.10 Leeds
17.30 Carlisle ScR DMU - the second and final intermediate calls - this was 6 cars with 3 detached Kilmarnock
22.10 Euston - sleepers only
22.30 Euston seatts and sleepers
22.55 Nottingham - seats and sleepers
A quite shocking level of servoice for a town of over 40,000 souls. The line towards Ayr had closed in the 60's although re-opened subsequently.
The down direction was similar except the 17.30 ex GLC returned from Carlisle only as far as Kilmarnock balanced by an a.m. commuter working Kilmarnock to Glasgow in the morning although commuting with such a sparse service could not have been attractive, just imagine missing the 17.30 home (maybe a good excuse for 5 hours in the pub)!.

 

[nw1]

Kilmarnock was probably worse in the 1980s, as the Anglo-Scottish trains had gone, it was just a handful per day from Glasgow to Carlisle, and I think just a couple of peak hour trains to Glasgow. There were long periods in the day with nothing at all - even gaps of several hours to Glasgow.

I thought Kilmarnock had fairly regular Glasgow services, at least, in the 80s (thinking 1985 or so) but I night be wrong, I seem to remember as well as the Carlisle services (which were hauled by then, as discussed in another thread on Nostalgia) there were roughly hourly terminators from Glasgow that served intermediate stations (Dunlop, Barrhead, Nitshill etc - I think I've got the names right?) and were presumably DMU operated.

I might have misremembered though, maybe they terminated before reaching Kilmarnock.

Also, if Kilmarnock was bad, presumably Dumfries, another large town, was equally bad unless it had a lot of shuttles from Carlisle.

The train service between Worcester and Birmingham in the 1970s wasn't the greatest. Via Kidderminster was mostly peaks, others went via Bromsgrove, but didn't all call there. Likewise, there were some quite big gaps on the Malvern and Hereford route.

Ah ok. First I recall of the Birmingham Worcester route was in the 1980s when it ran as an hourly to Malvern, and some hours Hereford, running fast (not sure about non-stop, there may have been one or two intermediate stops but most were skipped) to Stourbridge and then most stations. The re-routing since via Bromsgrove happened more recently, can't remember when. Perhaps when the route north of Snow Hill was re-opened.

As an aside, Cross Country used to do this route (Stourbridge-Worcester) as a diversion on occasion. I remember one day in June 1990 being routed this way to Worcester, then over the Cotswold line to Oxford. To this day, the only occasion I have travelled either route. A key memory is passing through all the small halts northwest of Oxford.

 

[Sprinter107]

I thought Kilmarnock had fairly regular Glasgow services, at least, in the 80s (thinking 1985 or so) but I night be wrong, I seem to remember as well as the Carlisle services (which were hauled by then, as discussed in another thread on Nostalgia) there were roughly hourly terminators from Glasgow that served intermediate stations (Dunlop, Barrhead, Nitshill etc - I think I've got the names right?) and were presumably DMU operated.

I might have misremembered though, maybe they terminated before reaching Kilmarnock.

Also, if Kilmarnock was bad, presumably Dumfries, another large town, was equally bad unless it had a lot of shuttles from Carlisle.




Ah ok. First I recall of the Birmingham Worcester route was in the 1980s when it ran as an hourly to Malvern, and some hours Hereford, running fast (not sure about non-stop, there may have been one or two intermediate stops but most were skipped) to Stourbridge and then most stations. The re-routing since via Bromsgrove happened more recently, can't remember when. Perhaps when the route north of Snow Hill was re-opened.

As an aside, Cross Country used to do this route (Stourbridge-Worcester) as a diversion on occasion. I remember one day in June 1990 being routed this way to Worcester, then over the Cotswold line to Oxford. To this day, the only occasion I have travelled either route. A key memory is passing through all the small halts northwest of Oxford.

Yes, the service between Worcester and Birmingham was improved under the Express Link branding on May 1983, when hourly trains from Worcester, some originating from Malvern and Hereford were introduced. Initially they called only at Droitwich Spa, Kidderminster, Stourbridge Junction, and Cradley Heath. This was when the Stourbridge line got a Sunday service back for the first time since about 1968. They were very successful, and in May 1987, they were increased to every 30 minutes, with some trains running via Stourbridge to Cardiff.

In the 1970s, it was very poor.

1973 via Stourbridge. Monday to Friday

From Worcester.
07.40 From Worcester Shrub Hill all stns to Stourbridge Junction then Langley Green and Smethwick West.

08.08 From Worcester Foregate Street all stns. (Started Great Malvern)

08.19 From Worcester Foregate Street (Started Hereford),Worcester Shrub Hill, Droitwich Spa, Kidderminster, Hagley, Stourbridge Junction, Smethwick West

13.30 From Worcester Foregate Street (started Hereford)all stns

16.00 From Worcester Foregate Street (Started Hereford), Worcester Shrub Hill, Droitwich Spa, Hartlebury, Kidderminster, Hagley, Stourbridge Junction, Smethwick West.

16.35 From Worcester Foregate Street, Droitwich Spa, then all stns.

17.27 From Worcester Foregate Street (Started Hereford) all stns

19.45 From Worcester Shrub Hill, all stns, tbro train to Lichfield City.


Via Bromsgrove :
03.01 From Worcester Shrub Hill, non stop

07 27 From Worcester Shrub Hill (Started Gloucester thro to Leeds) Droitwich Spa, Bromsgrove, Barnt Green, Northfield, Kings Norton, Bournville.

08.36 From Worcester Shrub Hill, non stop

12.54 From Worcester Shrub Hill, non stop

18.56 From Worcester Shrub Hill, non stop

21.03 From Worcester Shrub Hill, non stop.

 

[nw1]

Yes, the service between Worcester and Birmingham was improved under the Express Link branding on May 1983, when hourly trains from Worcester, some originating from Malvern and Hereford were introduced. Initially they called only at Droitwich Spa, Kidderminster, Stourbridge Junction, and Cradley Heath. This was when the Stourbridge line got a Sunday service back for the first time since about 1968. They were very successful, and in May 1987, they were increased to every 30 minutes, with some trains running via Stourbridge to Cardiff.

In the 1970s, it was very poor.

1973 via Stourbridge. Monday to Friday

From Worcester.
07.40 From Worcester Shrub Hill all stns to Stourbridge Junction then Langley Green and Smethwick West.

08.08 From Worcester Foregate Street all stns. (Started Great Malvern)

08.19 From Worcester Foregate Street (Started Hereford),Worcester Shrub Hill, Droitwich Spa, Kidderminster, Hagley, Stourbridge Junction, Smethwick West

13.30 From Worcester Foregate Street (started Hereford)all stns

16.00 From Worcester Foregate Street (Started Hereford), Worcester Shrub Hill, Droitwich Spa, Hartlebury, Kidderminster, Hagley, Stourbridge Junction, Smethwick West.

16.35 From Worcester Foregate Street, Droitwich Spa, then all stns.

17.27 From Worcester Foregate Street (Started Hereford) all stns

19.45 From Worcester Shrub Hill, all stns, tbro train to Lichfield City.


Via Bromsgrove :
03.01 From Worcester Shrub Hill, non stop

07 27 From Worcester Shrub Hill (Started Gloucester thro to Leeds) Droitwich Spa, Bromsgrove, Barnt Green, Northfield, Kings Norton, Bournville.

08.36 From Worcester Shrub Hill, non stop

12.54 From Worcester Shrub Hill, non stop

18.56 From Worcester Shrub Hill, non stop

21.03 From Worcester Shrub Hill, non stop.

That does have some huge gaps, notably 08:36 to 12:54. I'm amazed there wasn't justification for an hourly service. It's somewhat reminiscent of some US commuter rail, in fact, which has frequent service in the peaks but very sparse service during the day.

To add to my initial post on Newbury in 1967, it does appear that there was actually quite a drop in Newbury's service, certainly off peak, between 1965 and 1967 - perhaps (and I'd need to see the pattern for some of the other towns here to be sure) suggesting that the immediate post-Beeching years really were a marked and notable trough in service provision.

In 1965, Newbury actually had a clockface pattern off Reading, every hour off peak except 0917 and 1417, with enhancements at xx47 in the peak hours. Furthermore most of these stopped at all stations between Reading and Newbury on Saturdays. On top of this were a few IC services, at four-hour intervals in the down direction. The 1967 timetable on this line was thus quite a comedown compared to 1965, but I guess they counted themselves lucky to even have a service at all with the climate of the time...

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Inverness is perhaps worth a mention here. Until the introduction of the Clansman in 1974 there were just three daytime train to the Central Belt, 08.20 to Edinburgh, 11.25 to Glasgow and 16.35 with portions for both. Although the Royal Highlander departed relatively early at 19.00 there were no connections beyond Stirling. In the same period the service to Aberdeen had (I think fairly recently) been increased from five to six trains per day. A far cry from more recent service levels on both routes.

 

[stuu]

I was in Worcester in 2019 and needed to get home via Bristol. I was very surprised the service to Cheltenham and Bristol is only every two hours. I know it looks more towards Birmingham, but still seems very poor

 

[nw1]

I was in Worcester in 2019 and needed to get home via Bristol. I was very surprised the service to Cheltenham and Bristol is only every two hours. I know it looks more towards Birmingham, but still seems very poor

I think Worcester is one of these places which is overlooked somewhat for inter-city traffic as it is off the main line and serving it would slow down Birmingham to Bristol too much.

I thought its southbound service was to Cardiff - it always was in recent years I think, I presume that is still the case? Typically a 170 routed via, but not stopping at, Bromsgrove? I thought that was hourly. Maybe there is a Bristol service as well?

Still, better than in the mid 70s when the city probably had a service no better than its Massachusetts namesake.

 

[Taunton]

Worcester strikes me as a sort of "Northampton", with its principal main line Bristol to Birmingham being squeezed away from the city. It was compounded by the city's stations being GWR but this main line being Midland Railway. Back in the 1960s there were some main line trains on this service which did loop around and serve Shrub Hill, but were withdrawn.

Even more, there are three principal routings that serve the city in a triangular arrangement : Bristol to Birmingham; Birmingham to Hereford; Hereford to Paddington. It is not possible to serve a triangular arrangement with one station (though the Swiss would think nothing of it and do 3-minute reversals, which for some reason seem banned in Britain). Even more, the principal station, Shrub Hill, is not really convenient for the city, as I found out one evening alighting from the grand Cathedrals Express (so-called), expecting a line up of taxis, to find the place deserted once the half-dozen passengers had disappeared, and no taxis at all nor any seeming way to get one.

Northampton itself was another, from the 1966 electrification it had just an hourly emu, a stopping train both sides of the town, which eventually reached Birmingham or London, to the latter having been overtaken by 10 or more faster trains which had just skirted the place.

I suppose Milton Keynes also grew to be quite a large town, headed for a city, without any significant station at all, just Bletchley and Wolverton on the periphery, well away from the development, despite the main line passing right through the centre. By the time one was opened it was well-developed.

It's a fact of railway development that the lines from London to the north and west, having both substantial freight and long distance passenger services, would feel that was enough for them to do. If however your line went to Brighton there was liittle freight and your trains could not go further, so short distance passenger traffic had to be your focus. This certainly seemed to account for the greater development in Victorian times of London suburban services on the Southern and Great Eastern lines. It was left to the Metropolitan to promote later on residential development in their quarter of the urban area.

 

[satisnek]

Indeed, Worcestershire in general was very poorly served. Even the expanding town of Redditch had a peak hour only service in the 1970s. The exception was Kidderminster, which had the relative luxury of an hourly all-stations service to Birmingham. By the time I moved there it had improved, but as a Surrey kid from what was once described on this forum as 'four car suburbia', learning how things used to be was a real eye-opener.

Burton-on-Trent had just a single-figure number of calls per day in each direction with long gaps in late morning and afternoon. Tamworth High Level was probably worse.

 

[Pigeon]

Worcester strikes me as a sort of "Northampton", with its principal main line Bristol to Birmingham being squeezed away from the city. It was compounded by the city's stations being GWR but this main line being Midland Railway. Back in the 1960s there were some main line trains on this service which did loop around and serve Shrub Hill, but were withdrawn.

There was a significant Midland presence in Worcester, with their own goods station, some joint route ownership, and as much concession as they could squeeze out of the GW in the course of fighting over whose railways the OWW and the W&H ended up as. The Midland used to run passenger trains through the loop as a matter of course and considered the direct line more of a freight route. It's a great shame that doesn't happen any more as the service southwards through Cheltenham has been rotten for years and years and it looks as if the chances of it ever getting any better have pretty well disappeared now.

(Though although the frequency is awful, you do get some unexpectedly interesting long through services to places like Weymouth and Portsmouth, which again have long been a feature.)

 

[172007]

Worcester is a very odd place, it's a city so not a large town (so outside of the OP's original brief) but in reality it's not even a large town, more a medium town with a large county wide catchment whose population is largely rural. I think that's why it's connectections other than Birmingham, Hereford and Paddington are non existent or patchy to say the least.

 

[Rescars]

There was a significant Midland presence in Worcester, with their own goods station, some joint route ownership, and as much concession as they could squeeze out of the GW in the course of fighting over whose railways the OWW and the W&H ended up as. The Midland used to run passenger trains through the loop as a matter of course and considered the direct line more of a freight route. It's a great shame that doesn't happen any more as the service southwards through Cheltenham has been rotten for years and years and it looks as if the chances of it ever getting any better have pretty well disappeared now.

(Though although the frequency is awful, you do get some unexpectedly interesting long through services to places like Weymouth and Portsmouth, which again have long been a feature.)

Shrub Hill was originally joint owned by the Midland and the Oxford Worcester and Woverhampton. The OWW was nicknamed back then as the Old Worse and Worse. Seems as though not a lot has changed since the 1850s!

 

[miklcct]

Branksome and Parkstone - 1 train per hour to Poole or Bournemouth.

 

[30907]

Branksome and Parkstone - 1 train per hour to Poole or Bournemouth.

Think we are talking historically on this thread. These two suburban stations (which I suppose are in large towns) had until 1964 3 separate stopping services - via Wimborne, towards Templecombe, and towards Weymouth, each about every 2 hours offpeak but not evenly spaced.
Only the Weymouth service survived and remained 2-hourly off-peak (with a couple of peak hour extras).
Over the years it crept up to the 2tph service that was standard pre Covid.

 

[Ken H]

Shrub Hill was originally joint owned by the Midland and the Oxford Worcester and Woverhampton. The OWW was nicknamed back then as the Old Worse and Worse. Seems as though not a lot has changed since the 1850s!

Shrub Hill always seems to have a sad neglected air. While Foregate St, in the heart of the city, seems more vibrant. And it has the platform end caff. Sitting in there with grandkids when they were young and a train went past just the other side of the glass - impressed em!

 

[Rescars]

Sounds very civilised!

 

[Horizon22]

Yes Worcester having 2-car (sometimes 1 car) trains every 2 hours to Cheltenham or Bristol was very poor and that was in very recent history / current. I'm not sure if the additional of Worcester Parkway has helped with connections considering that's only 1 GWR tph anyway.

 

[miklcct]

Think we are talking historically on this thread. These two suburban stations (which I suppose are in large towns) had until 1964 3 separate stopping services - via Wimborne, towards Templecombe, and towards Weymouth, each about every 2 hours offpeak but not evenly spaced.
Only the Weymouth service survived and remained 2-hourly off-peak (with a couple of peak hour extras).
Over the years it crept up to the 2tph service that was standard pre Covid.

If not of the Beeching cut the line to Wimborne would be useful and we could have a South East Dorset Metro serving the conurbation in form of a loop, a stopping service operating Brockenhurst - Sway - New Milton - Hinton Admiral - Christchurch - Pokesdown - Bournemouth - Branksome - Parkstone - Poole - Broadstone - Wimborne - West Moors - Ashley Heath - Ringwood - Holmsley - Brockenhurst in a loop.

 

[mmh]

Llanrwst. I'm sure people will say it doesn't count as a large town, but it is the largest town for a very large area, and has an effectively unusable train service.