Large towns with poor or very poor off-peak services

[Pigeon]

Yes Worcester having 2-car (sometimes 1 car) trains every 2 hours to Cheltenham or Bristol was very poor and that was in very recent history / current. I'm not sure if the additional of Worcester Parkway has helped with connections considering that's only 1 GWR tph anyway.

Last time I looked it was still pretty rubbish. Fairly random mixture of direct trains, change at Parkway, and change at New Street, which is just silly. So it sort of sometimes looks like 1tph if you look at the right part of the day, but with enormous variation in journey times, weird and confusing fares with random journeys effectively out of the question because the fare is 3 times what you pay for the identical route on the trains both before and after, and still with big holes where there just isn't anything. Last time I wanted to get to Cheltenham I found I couldn't do it because I made the mistake of assuming there would be some trains that could be called "middle of the day", but found there was actually a gap of several hours with nothing.

 

[RPI]

Newquay? One of the largest towns in Cornwall and even though it has a rough 2 hourly service now for years it just had four trains per day except for high summer, with a five hour gap in the afternoon.

 

[miklcct]

Poole.

1 tph on Weymouth - Bournemouth service only on Monday to Friday. Only 1 train to Brockenhurst with no return service, and no train to London despite on the same line.

 

[nw1]

Poole.

1 tph on Weymouth - Bournemouth service only on Monday to Friday. Only 1 train to Brockenhurst with no return service, and no train to London despite on the same line.

True, though this is a temporary state of affairs; the main aim of this thread was to identify historical examples of permanent timetables with poor service.

 

[miklcct]

True, though this is a temporary state of affairs; the main aim of this thread was to identify historical examples of permanent timetables with poor service.

And even now,
Redbridge, Millbrook, Swaythling: 1 train per hour in each direction with only a local service despite on the SW Main Line
St Denys: 1 train per hour on each line in each direction
Mauldeth Road: 1 train per hour in each direction
Northolt Park: 1 train per hour in each direction

All these stations are in cities. Meanwhile, there are countless stations in cities having only 2 trains per hour, while London Overground aims to run at least 4 trains per hours on its line, which I consider the minimum standard for a turn-up-and-go service.

 

[MadMac]

I thought Kilmarnock had fairly regular Glasgow services, at least, in the 80s (thinking 1985 or so) but I night be wrong, I seem to remember as well as the Carlisle services (which were hauled by then, as discussed in another thread on Nostalgia) there were roughly hourly terminators from Glasgow that served intermediate stations (Dunlop, Barrhead, Nitshill etc - I think I've got the names right?) and were presumably DMU operated.

I might have misremembered though, maybe they terminated before reaching Kilmarnock.

Also, if Kilmarnock was bad, presumably Dumfries, another large town, was equally bad unless it had a lot of shuttles from Carlisle.




Ah ok. First I recall of the Birmingham Worcester route was in the 1980s when it ran as an hourly to Malvern, and some hours Hereford, running fast (not sure about non-stop, there may have been one or two intermediate stops but most were skipped) to Stourbridge and then most stations. The re-routing since via Bromsgrove happened more recently, can't remember when. Perhaps when the route north of Snow Hill was re-opened.

As an aside, Cross Country used to do this route (Stourbridge-Worcester) as a diversion on occasion. I remember one day in June 1990 being routed this way to Worcester, then over the Cotswold line to Oxford. To this day, the only occasion I have travelled either route. A key memory is passing through all the small halts northwest of Oxford.

Kilmarnock was the one that immediately came to mind here. When I started on BR, there was a fellow in the office who didn’t get in until about 9AM: our start time was 8:30. He had a dispensation due to the only reasonable train to Glasgow leaving Kilmarnock at 8:09. Things picked up in the mid-80s when Kilmaurs reopened with an hourly service.

 

[Irascible]

Were there trains to Leamington from either Marylebone or Paddington before the whole chiltern line revival? ( edit: yes via Oxford, wasn't looking in the right place. )

Looking at the 1973 timetable Tiverton Jct ( technically the town station! plus most of mid Devon ) had three up & down trains per day until 2200ish when the last couple of down trains stopped, presumably to drop off mail or papers or something.

 

[Ken H]

Were there trains to Leamington from either Marylebone or Paddington before the whole chiltern line revival? ( edit: yes via Oxford, wasn't looking in the right place. )

...

No. NSE Chiltern stopped at Banbury. Only later did through trains to brum start
(There was 1 loco hauled train a day to/from Marylebone to Brum. Some years they went on to places further North.)

 

[Taunton]

Kilmarnock was the one that immediately came to mind here. When I started on BR, there was a fellow in the office who didn’t get in until about 9AM: our start time was 8:30. He had a dispensation due to the only reasonable train to Glasgow leaving Kilmarnock at 8:09. Things picked up in the mid-80s when Kilmaurs reopened with an hourly service.

I've commented on Kilmarnock before, above, but am reminded by this that when working in Glasgow mid-1970s we had a chap who sometimes came in from Kilmarnock on Mondays, where his family lived, and did so on the bus. Not only were they frequent, say every 20 minutes, but he said that for a departure at 8am there would be two, or even three, double-deck vehicles provided, which ran in convoy to Glasgow, and possibly the same 20 minutes later.

By the early 1980s on an Ayrshire business trip I was dropped at Kilmarnock station in the afternoon with about an hour to wait before the 5pm-ish Carlisle train, and onward thence to Euston. Not another train passed in that hour, and the station was deserted. They seemed to be down to using one platform, the Down Main being used in both directions.

 

[nw1]

Kilmarnock was the one that immediately came to mind here. When I started on BR, there was a fellow in the office who didn’t get in until about 9AM: our start time was 8:30. He had a dispensation due to the only reasonable train to Glasgow leaving Kilmarnock at 8:09. Things picked up in the mid-80s when Kilmaurs reopened with an hourly service.

Funnily enough I've just (last few days) been looking at the 1982 version of the timetable for this line. Still very sparse: basically just the Carlisle services (which were perhaps every 4 hours, with a Dumfries-Carlisle shuttle filling the gaps to produce a roughly 2-hourly frequency on that section) and little else.

I'm not too au fait with this part of Scotland though aware Kilmarnock is fairly large; in 1982 the hourly local service from Glasgow terminated at Barrhead. Was it not considered worthwhile extending this to Kilmarnock?

Slightly OT but I note the West Highland line was also pretty poor in 1982, at least outside the summer season. Essentially there was the sleeper and just one other return trip to Fort William (south morning, north evening) - plus a third service (north morning, south evening) in the summer only.

At the other extreme, the now-closed Kilmacolm line had a regular clockface hourly service. And you could travel from London to Houston by train in 1982, too.

 

[Magdalia]

No. NSE Chiltern stopped at Banbury. Only later did through trains to brum start
(There was 1 loco hauled train a day to/from Marylebone to Brum. Some years they went on to places further North.)

Long distance services from Marylebone, to Nottingham, ceased when the Great Central closed in 1966. The one loco hauled train in each direction via High Wycombe in the 1970s and 1980s ran to and from Paddington, not Marylebone.

 

[nw1]

Long distance services from Marylebone, to Nottingham, ceased when the Great Central closed in 1966. The one loco hauled train in each direction via High Wycombe in the 1970s and 1980s ran to and from Paddington, not Marylebone.

Something like 1740 off Paddington, I think. A possible side effect of this was that there was a gap at around 1800 with no Reading-Birmingham service at around this time (as the Paddington-High Wycombe-Birmingham was the 'Cross Country' service in this hour), though pathing in the evening peak in the Reading area might also have played a part. (Generally the Reading-Birmingham service in the 80s was about hourly, but the northbound gap in the evening peak was a notable feature in most years).

 

[Magdalia]

Something like 1740 off Paddington, I think. A possible side effect of this was that there was a gap at around 1800 with no Reading-Birmingham service at around this time (as the Paddington-High Wycombe-Birmingham was the 'Cross Country' service in this hour), though pathing in the evening peak in the Reading area might also have played a part. (Generally the Reading-Birmingham service in the 80s was about hourly, but the northbound gap in the evening peak was a notable feature in most years).

There was a 1726 Paddington-Banbury via Oxford that provided a cross platform connection into the train that came via High Wycombe. In the up direction the connection at Banbury, off of the train going via High Wycombe, was into an all stations dmu.

 

[Ken H]

Long distance services from Marylebone, to Nottingham, ceased when the Great Central closed in 1966. The one loco hauled train in each direction via High Wycombe in the 1970s and 1980s ran to and from Paddington, not Marylebone.

You are not wrong
May 78-May 79 GBTT

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Batley: population of around 50k depending where you draw the boundaries, but only an half-hourly service by the stopping trains. Neighbouring Dewsbury (c. 70k) does better, with calls on some of the faster services- mostly because it's about halfway between Huddersfield and Leeds, and because the station is on the edge of the town centre. Batley station however is quite remote, and extra calls so close to Dewsbury would be difficult to timetable. Historically Batley was more important than Dewsbury, but was always more sprawling compared to Dewsbury which is denser and more self-contained.

 

[hexagon789]

I'm not too au fait with this part of Scotland though aware Kilmarnock is fairly large; in 1982 the hourly local service from Glasgow terminated at Barrhead. Was it not considered worthwhile extending this to Kilmarnock?

I imagine one aspect would be the longer service would require more units to provide the same frequency.

After the 126s were withdrawn but especially after the Ayr Depot fire the Scottish Region was increasingly short of DMUs.

In the 1970s and 1980s it was not uncommon for 126s to work to Carlisle even.

 

[The exile]

Worcester is a very odd place, it's a city so not a large town (so outside of the OP's original brief) but in reality it's not even a large town, more a medium town with a large county wide catchment whose population is largely rural. I think that's why it's connectections other than Birmingham, Hereford and Paddington are non existent or patchy to say the least.

If the halving of XC express frequency on the Bristol - Birmingham corridor is to be long-term / permanent, consideration should be given to a Bristol - Birmingham semi-fast / stopper (might partially solve the “what serves the new Camp Hill stations?” Issue)

 

[Irascible]

No. NSE Chiltern stopped at Banbury. Only later did through trains to brum start
(There was 1 loco hauled train a day to/from Marylebone to Brum. Some years they went on to places further North.)

Looking at the 1973 WR timetable, there were services to New St. via Oxford at 09/11/12/14/1605, then the High Wycombe, then another at 1957. Which does lead a deviation into "when did Birmingham services from Paddington finally stop"...

 

[The exile]

Looking at the 1973 WR timetable, there were services to New St. via Oxford at 09/11/12/14/1605, then the High Wycombe, then another at 1957. Which does lead a deviation into "when did Birmingham services from Paddington finally stop"...

Still running (just) in 1988 - one of them provided a loco-hauled train stopping at Marston Green (was this a relic of pre-International days, or a temporary thing because of works at International?).

 

[RPI]

Newquay? 2nd largest town in Cornwall (I think, second to St Austell population wise), for most of the 90's and early 2000's had four trains a day outside the peak summer 6 weeks with a 5 hour gap in the afternoon.

 

[Greetlander]

Halifax - population around 90'000 in the 70s/80s was down to one per hour in each direction plus a couple of Blackpool extensions. Night and day compared to the present day.

 

[Taunton]

There was a 1726 Paddington-Banbury via Oxford that provided a cross platform connection into the train that came via High Wycombe. In the up direction the connection at Banbury, off of the train going via High Wycombe, was into an all stations dmu.

Noteworthy as the last express on the Western Region to be steam hauled, though then it left Paddington for Banbury about 16.15. Nicely-polished 7029 Clun Castle, only 15 years old, did the last day honours, in June 1965.

Once the Euston electric services started in 1967 that was the "expected" way from London to Birmingham, and services on the Paddington route were reduced to a still worthwhile series of semi-fasts. After a couple of years it was realised that these were better sent round by Reading rather than the New North line, improving both Paddington to Oxford, and Reading/Oxford to Birmingham, and still serving London to Banbury/Leamington. High Wycombe lost out. Through operation from Paddington to Birmingham then became more of an operating convenience than a specific flow.

 

[jfollows]

Long distance services from Marylebone, to Nottingham, ceased when the Great Central closed in 1966. The one loco hauled train in each direction via High Wycombe in the 1970s and 1980s ran to and from Paddington, not Marylebone.

I was lucky enough to be an undergraduate in Oxford in 1980 and I once went on a day trip to London via Banbury, using these services both ways, Class 50 on the front each time.
A year or so later I was now living in London and had to visit someone in Bicester so I got a DMU from Marylebone (and didn't go back to Marylebone until a couple of years ago) and he took me back to Bicester to catch the service from Paddington which then went through to Wilmslow.
Good services for their time, but I don't think they had a lot of reason to exist other than that they were the rump of a service which had existed prior to 1966.
1M60 from 17/5/82 to 15/5/83 working timetable attached.

Looking at the 1973 WR timetable, there were services to New St. via Oxford at 09/11/12/14/1605, then the High Wycombe, then another at 1957. Which does lead a deviation into "when did Birmingham services from Paddington finally stop"...

And I can't answer precisely either, but the first of my two published letters in Modern Railways came about because MR wrote along the lines of loco-hauled services from Paddington had ceased (with the exception of the sleeper) and I observed that Paddington-Birmingham services were still running which they'd overlooked. I had reason to be in London, Oxford and Wilmslow in 1980-84 so I kept an eye on these services, and they were still running after then.

 

[Magdalia]

Which does lead a deviation into "when did Birmingham services from Paddington finally stop"...

I have a 1995 all line PTT which still has 0604/0905 Paddington to Manchester and 1418 to Edinburgh. Coming in were 0917/1710 from Manchester and 1608 from Glasgow. I think these lasted until the Voyagers replaced the LHCS but can't be sure.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Which does lead a deviation into "when did Birmingham services from Paddington finally stop"...

May 2003: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/virgin-crosscountry-paddington-trains.69984/

 

[D6130]

Aberystwyth is a large-ish seaside resort and university town with only one train every two hours.

 

[stuu]

Aberystwyth is a large-ish seaside resort and university town with only one train every two hours.

It isn't really though, a population of 16,000 ranks it as fairly insignificant. Because of it's remoteness it's a more important place than a similarly sized town in say Hertfordshire.

The service is back to nearly hourly from May, which I would bet good money is the best it has ever been.

 

[30907]

The service is back to nearly hourly from May, which I would bet good money is the best it has ever been.

Indeed so - and (getting back on topic) even the 2-hourly service is better than the early 70s service of 6tpd (including the Mails).

 

[Revilo]

Although not a large town in itself (well it is within one!) Kensington Olympia had a very poor service in the 1980s of just two trains a day and later through a few XC services with an additional rush hour shuttle.

 

[D6130]

Glenrothes in Fife - one of Scotland's five post-war new towns and the administrative centre of Fife Region, with a population of nearly 40,000 - didn't even have a station until may 1992 when Glenrothes with Thornton opened. In practical terms, the nearest staion was - and still is - Markinch, although some of the Western parts of the town may be nearer to Cardenden which, for many years in the 1970s and 1980s was only served in the morning and evening peak hours Mondays-Fridays.