Leaked documents contradict the killing at Stockwell Tube

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Dave A

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BBC - [url said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4159310.stm][/url]'Shoot-to-kill' suspension call


An image leaked to ITV shows
Mr de Menezes lying dead on the tube


The family of a man shot dead by police who mistakenly suspected him of being a suicide bomber are calling for the "shoot-to-kill" policy to be suspended.

It comes after leaked documents contradicted previous accounts of the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes at Stockwell Tube station on 22 July.

Investigation papers, leaked to ITV, suggest the Brazilian was restrained before being shot eight times.

His family say they want a full judicial inquiry to reveal the "truth".

Denim jacket

The documents, seemingly from the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) investigation into the shooting, contradict first reports which suggested Mr de Menezes did not hurdle the barrier at Stockwell tube station and was not wearing a padded jacket that could have concealed a bomb.

They also suggest Mr de Menezes had walked into Stockwell Tube station, picked up a free newspaper, walked through ticket barriers, had started to run when he saw a train arriving and was sitting down in a train when he was shot.

In the immediate aftermath of the incident - which happened a day after the 21 July failed bomb attacks in London - police said Mr de Menezes had been acting suspiciously and suggested he had vaulted the ticket barriers.

Police also said the 27-year-old electrician had worn a large winter-style coat - but the leaked version suggested he had in fact worn a denim jacket.

Mr de Menezes' cousin Allessandro Pereira said: "My family deserve the full truth about his murder. The truth cannot be hidden any longer. It has to be made public.

"Everything we have said has been proved to be true.

"Jean was an innocent man who was shot in cold blood. We now know that he wasn't wearing a bulky jacket, that he wasn't acting suspiciously or that he was told to stop by the police.

"He was being restrained when he was shot and killed."

He said the police should have stopped his cousin before he got to the bus stop after leaving home in Tulse Hill. "He would have helped the police," he said.

"They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone, any English person."

'Security high'

In a statement, the IPCC said it does not know where the documents came from and that its priority was to keep Mr de Menezes family informed.

It would not comment on the details of the leak, adding the family "will clearly be distressed that they have received information on television concerning his death".

Its statement added: "The IPCC made it clear that we would not speculate or release partial information about the investigation, and that others should not do so. That remains the case."

The commission said it operated a "very high degree of security" on all of its investigations.

Asad Rehman, spokesman for the Justice4Jean Family Campaign said: "The overwhelming majority of the people of London join us in believing that there can be no alternative but the immediate suspension of the shoot-to-kill policy before another innocent Londoner becomes its victim.

"The home secretary must now use his powers to order a full judicial inquiry into the killing.

"This is the minimum required if we are to have any faith in those responsible for our security and safety.

"We must show that nobody is above the law and that those responsible for the killing will be identified and brought to justice and that we will learn the lessons from this tragic death."

Information 'terrifying'

Harriet Wistrich, solicitor for the family of Mr de Menezes, said the information the leaked documents contained was "terrifying".

She also urged the government and police to review the shoot-to-kill policy.

"What sort of society are we living in where we can execute suspects?" she said.

"First of all it tells us that the information that was first put out, which was first reported in the news, is almost entirely wrong and misleading.

"There was no suggestion that this person was a suspect in any way, that he was running from the police".

She said it also suggested the information given to the pathologist who carried out the post-mortem examination on Mr de Menezes was incorrect.

Scotland Yard and the Home Office have so far said it would be inappropriate to comment.
I posted this specifically for the part in red. When reading it I got a feeling of shock and worry. IF, this is true, then its not a nice feeling. My brother looks of mediterranean decent, even though he is English, does that mean he will get shot because of this :?

Of course in this time of hightened security many people are happy to see armed police. But its not a feeling of security I get when they may shoot at anyone :shock:
 
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Tom B

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If it is true that he was acting normally, the whole thing could have been prevented but for a copper going to the loo etc. AND he was restrained and incapable of doing anything - then it is disgusting.
 

yorkie

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London Tube said:
I posted this specifically for the part in red. When reading it I got a feeling of shock and worry. IF, this is true, then its not a nice feeling. My brother looks of mediterranean decent, even though he is English, does that mean he will get shot because of this :?
If he runs for a train, and if the police act the same as they did before, then very possibly. :shock: They've already warned it could happen again. :shock: :x

They will, of course, get away with it. This investigation is purely to pretend something will be done. They'll cover it all in secrecy, the murderer will NEVER be known, be given an extention to his existing paid holiday and will be defended as "only doing his job", and we'll be told by Bliar that this country is all the greater and safer for the police's actions. Yeah, right. :roll:
 

ChrisM

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Scarey stuff and hope the whole "security issue" doesn't get out of control.
Wonder if we will ever know what really happened on that day,remember the media aren't well known for the truth.
 

Dave A

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yorkie said:
London Tube said:
I posted this specifically for the part in red. When reading it I got a feeling of shock and worry. IF, this is true, then its not a nice feeling. My brother looks of mediterranean decent, even though he is English, does that mean he will get shot because of this :?
If he runs for a train, and if the police act the same as they did before, then very possibly. :shock: They've already warned it could happen again. :shock: :x

They will, of course, get away with it. This investigation is purely to pretend something will be done. They'll cover it all in secrecy, the murderer will NEVER be known, be given an extention to his existing paid holiday and will be defended as "only doing his job", and we'll be told by Bliar that this country is all the greater and safer for the police's actions. Yeah, right. :roll:
When has "Bliar" ever said anything of use to anyone :roll:

It is very worrying and I have told him to take it very seriously. He's only 13 but has been mistaken for 18 many times. :( :(
 
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Well he shouldnt of been here really.... neither should alot of people! I be glad when some of these hate preachers get deported. I have no problem with religion, colour or creed, but some just step the line too much and dont deserve to be in this country! but still if the reports ARE true, then its a pretty grim ending. But i will remain sceptical until it all comes out through the investigation, court case etc
 

Dave A

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Bonnie Prince Charlie said:
Well he shouldnt of been here really.... neither should alot of people! I be glad when some of these hate preachers get deported. I have no problem with religion, colour or creed, but some just step the line too much and dont deserve to be in this country! but still if the reports ARE true, then its a pretty grim ending. But i will remain sceptical until it all comes out through the investigation, court case etc
I agree with your statement about the "hate preachers". There's Free Speech, then there's FREE Speech

But, the truth will probably never come out through investigation, not if Bliar has his way. When has it ever since 1997? Well, maybe after 5 years of independant investigations and a lot of interfeering by different people :roll:
 

Dave A

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yorkie said:
Unfortunately the terror in this case was caused by the police.
IMO, I think it stretches a lot further than that :(

In this country, mysterious things happen, people get targeted for no reason, the government does not like people who speak out against them and, as history shows, they are dealt with! :( :x
 

David

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150265 said:
Wonder if we will ever know what really happened on that day, remember the media aren't well known for the truth.
The media is still a lot better than the govornment, especially the Prime Minister. Tony Blair said there was WMD in Irag, so we need to go to war, 2 years later, and how many WMD have been found?

IMO, this so-called "War on Terror", is just a front for Tony Blair and George W. Bush to "Eliminate" people they don't like by calling them terrorists.
 

TheSlash

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I support the police on this one. As far as the armed police were aware, there was a suicide bomber onboard with a bomb and it was plausable that the suspect would make every attempt possible to detonate the bomb, it was a very tense situation for the police and they had to make a decision, its easy to say after the situation that they made the wrong one...
 

Tom B

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Yes, but he didn't have a bag or a bulky jacket as previously reported, so how could he have been a suidice bomber?
 

The Snap

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I personally think that the killing of this poor guy is terrible! Fair enough, he COULD have been a bomber, but he wasn´t, and there was no need to shoot him 8 times! :shock:
 

jd

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The latest on this case is that the Met Police 'resisted' the involvement of the IPCC (Independant Police Complaints Commission). Very fishy indeed...
 

Tom B

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There is this stupid notion that because terrorism had a tenuous link, normal procedure goes out the window. A bit like the fact that, as with all civilised societies, you can't be locked up without trial - unless it's terrorism you're suspected of, if the Government gets their way.
 

David

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RichardH said:
I personally think that the killing of this poor guy is terrible! Fair enough, he COULD have been a bomber, but he wasn´t, and there was no need to shoot him 8 times! :shock:
I agree. 8 shots from 2 officers is way over the top. This was nothing but cold blooded murder.
 
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Cockfosters said:
There is this stupid notion that because terrorism had a tenuous link, normal procedure goes out the window. A bit like the fact that, as with all civilised societies, you can't be locked up without trial - unless it's terrorism you're suspected of, if the Government gets their way.
if you are suspected of terrorism, you should be locked up until proved innocent. Terrorism is something we now have to live with, would you like someone suspected of being a terrorist, or have links with known terrorists to wonder the streets of Britian? Its a scary thought that they are people around us who hate our country and openly support terriorsm. The police have got one hell of a hard job to do and at the end of the day we are humans, we make mistakes.
 

Tom B

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But you should not be locked up unless it is *proved* you are guilty. If you've been involved in terrorism you should be charged and go through the judicial process, and if you were invovled in terrorism you will be found guilty. You can't lock people up on a *suspicion* - it MUST be on a *certainty*.
 
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Cockfosters said:
But you should not be locked up unless it is *proved* you are guilty. If you've been involved in terrorism you should be charged and go through the judicial process, and if you were invovled in terrorism you will be found guilty. You can't lock people up on a *suspicion* - it MUST be on a *certainty*.
Do it your way then, our judicial process is **** anyway so you may as well not bother putting anyone under trial anyway. Some of the sentences ive seen given... waste of time.

You can lock anyone up Mr Beevers, think all over the world now where people are locked up, being tortued. Go and fight thier case and see how far you get, you will probably end up the same way.
 

Tom B

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I was referring to our country. There are people locked up for no reason abroad (Guantanamo Bay anyone?), luckily we have not reached this stage yet.
 
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Cockfosters said:
I was referring to our country. There are people locked up for no reason abroad (Guantanamo Bay anyone?), luckily we have not reached this stage yet.
Well hopefully not to that extent over here, but terrorism is on our doorstep and we need to do something about it.
 

Tom B

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Indeed. And people can be convicted for terrorism offences, if only the intelligence gathering were better.
 

TheSlash

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You lot are being sucked in by the hatchet job the British press are doing on the police, remember they aren't interested in the right or wrong, they are interested in the sales figures
This bloke was suspected of being a suicide bomber who would detonate his bomb however possible, cuffing his hands may well of not been enough.

The otherside of the coin is that if people are punished for the shooting of a suspected terrorist, then when police follow similar suspects in future, who really are suicide bombers, the suspect may detonate their bomb and win the day because the police are too afraid to act incase they get bullocked for getting it wrong.
 

David

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Bonnie Prince Charlie said:
if you are suspected of terrorism, you should be locked up until proved innocent.
What the (Expletive) happened to the addage "Innocent until proven guilty"?

TheSlash said:
The otherside of the coin is that if people are punished for the shooting of a suspected terrorist, then when police follow similar suspects in future, who really are suicide bombers, the suspect may detonate their bomb and win the day because the police are too afraid to act incase they get bullocked for getting it wrong.
I agree. They are inbetween a rock and a hard place. They can't win no matter what they do. Although I stick to my earlier post that this was nothing but murder.
 

yorkie

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When does CCTV evidence disappear? When it suits the police, of course.

They've done it before, they murdered a 5 year old ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/24/newsid_2535000/2535421.stm ), and got away with it.

The same will happen now. And you know what? They'll do it again, and get away with it, again.

There will be no public enquiry. If there's a trial he'll be found not guilty.

Who will be next? :(
 

Tom B

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That's really weird, I was looking at that On This Day page about half an hour ago!

If the politicians introduce detention without trial (whatever the Daily Mail may say), the terrorists have won. They are trying to get their way of thinking introduced here - and if detention without trial is introduced, they will have won.
 
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