LED colour Banner Repeaters now in use?

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scott118

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Whilst passing through Streatham last night, i witnessed a green LED BR signal. Whilst i appreciate the meaning of these, how long have these been in operation? Is it a trial or likely to be rolled out, nationally?
 
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LowLevel

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There's loads of them now, they've been rolled out in lots of places, I think when Rugby was modernised was first.

For clarity I assume you're referring to banner repeaters (my first thought was old style signal heads with LED light engines replacing the traditional signal lamps!).
 

bengley

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They're the new standard - most resignalling schemes now incorporate them. Probably been around for 3 years or so now, at a guess.
 

scott118

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There's loads of them now, they've been rolled out in lots of places, I think when Rugby was modernised was first.

For clarity I assume you're referring to banner repeaters (my first thought was old style signal heads with LED light engines replacing the traditional signal lamps!).

those are the banners, yes. Had never come across them before, however that was before i ventured out last night...
 

robvulpes

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If you mean Streatham Common on the Victoria - Brighton main line, these new signals were brought into use a few weeks ago (the early May bank holiday weekend, or the previous weekend, IIRC).

Rob
 

Cherry_Picker

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They're the new standard - most resignalling schemes now incorporate them. Probably been around for 3 years or so now, at a guess.

Longer than that. The banners on the Chilterns were fitted with LED type heads during Evergreen 3, and that was back in 2011. Dorman (one of the major manufacturers of signalling equipment) announced they had a secured a contract to replace filament banners with LED types back in 2009 and had been replacing filament position light signals with LED types as long ago as 2004. I guess with trials you might find there are locations with LED banners in place which are at least a decade old.
 

1D53

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Longer than that. The banners on the Chilterns were fitted with LED type heads during Evergreen 3, and that was back in 2011. Dorman (one of the major manufacturers of signalling equipment) announced they had a secured a contract to replace filament banners with LED types back in 2009 and had been replacing filament position light signals with LED types as long ago as 2004. I guess with trials you might find there are locations with LED banners in place which are at least a decade old.

The 'three aspect' banner repeaters (ie capable of showing a green aspect) are far newer than 2001 though.
 

scott118

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If you mean Streatham Common on the Victoria - Brighton main line, these new signals were brought into use a few weeks ago (the early May bank holiday weekend, or the previous weekend, IIRC).

Rob

Thanks Rob - these are the very one's i saw. I'd never seen a 'non white' BR, led, type signal before, as all the BR's that are on my route card, only display a white aspect.

Is this the first route to have these new type of BR's, that mimic the hidden aspect, to be installed?
 

ComUtoR

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They have been up towards Pancras <> Bedford for quite some time.
 

Sunset route

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But they are not the first to be installed on the he BML as they were installed last year as part of the Balcombe full Bi-Directional re-signalling.
 

John Webb

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They have been up towards Pancras <> Bedford for quite some time.
Yes, WH75BR, one of the new 'Tri-state' banner repeaters, was installed on the Down Fast, repeating the signal at the North end of St Albans City Station platform 4, in July 2013. This was part of the preparations for increasing the line speed last year.
 

AndrewE

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The 'three aspect' banner repeaters (ie capable of showing a green aspect) are far newer than 2001 though.

What do they show, red (white?) horizontal, yellow and green diagonals? Maybe black horizontal on white ground, etc?
 
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Shaw S Hunter

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Definitely started to appear on the WCML as part of the upgrade works. IIRC there are examples visible from platforms at Lichfield Trent Valley (Down) and Wigan North Western (Up), the former would likely have appeared at the same time as the aforementioned example at Norton Bridge, the latter as part of the slightly later Wigan area scheme. As usual their use is dictated by a combination of sighting distance and linespeed.
 

edwin_m

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Banner repeaters are positioned on the approach to signals that have particularly poor sighting. The original reason was so that a driver expecting to find the signal at danger didn't have to slow right down to a crawl before the signal itself became visible - if the signal had cleared in the meantime the train could start accelerating away on seeing the repeater.

More recently the two-aspect repeater was provided on the approach to any signal that didn't meet the normal sighting time. The Cross Country line speed improvements in the early 2000s installed a lot of these. However the sighting time is only relevant when approaching the signal at line speed when the signal will normally be either green or double yellow (single yellow in three-aspect areas). So an indication of whether it is showing red or "something else" isn't much use, except for the rare occasions when it has dropped back to danger or been replaced or the driver has ignored caution signals, when there is the possibility of getting the brakes on a few seconds earlier. Basically the banner is acting as a rather expensive "signal round the corner" warning sign.

The green banner was a response to this, giving the confirmation that the signal is showing green so the driver does not need to brake, or just showing an inclined bar on white which indicates the signal is showing a caution aspect and the driver had better think about getting the brakes on. Then somebody realised that the meaning of the inclined bar on white is different at a banner that can also show green, so the green banners were indicated by (I think) a "screw head" symbol on the number plate. I believe all new ones will be of this form but there is no plan to upgrade existing white-only banners.
 
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driver_m

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Definitely started to appear on the WCML as part of the upgrade works. IIRC there are examples visible from platforms at Lichfield Trent Valley (Down) and Wigan North Western (Up), the former would likely have appeared at the same time as the aforementioned example at Norton Bridge, the latter as part of the slightly later Wigan area scheme. As usual their use is dictated by a combination of sighting distance and linespeed.

No, the green banner at Norton Bridge was a one off for some time in the WC. If you compare it to regular ones installed since the green aspect is quite dim. Unless you mean the high level which I don't sign, there aren't any banners on the platforms at Lichfield TV. The signals are in sight at the end of the down platform at Lichfield.
 

John Webb

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Here is a photo, taken from St Albans South box, of the Green banner signal mentioned in my previous post:

Note the "Screwhead" symbol, mentioned by edwin_m, on the identity plate.

The white banner signal on the down slow is the more usual 'two-state' as that has line speeds which are significantly lower.
 
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driver_m

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Some of the three state banners don't have the symbol on the plate even though they probably should. They are a massive help in a way to providing customer comfort, for instance there is now at Wolverton on the Up Fast, if it is off but white, then I have plenty of time to get the brake, whereas previously I would have had to do a very heavy brake application to prepare to stop at the red. As well as also having to contend with potential adhesion problems around there, specially in Autumn. There probably should be a plan to change all banners to three state as they are far more common now, Stafford and Watford resignallings has seen them almost routinely installed, with a couple of obvious exceptions at junctions where a green won't show in the signal. There is apeculiar one near Stafford which was meant to only show green if the two signals in front were both green but this has now seemingly being kept as a two state banner for some reason.
 

HSTEd

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The ever increasing cost and complexity of conventional signalling systems on the increasingly densely operated network is the best argument for ERTMS I've seen really.
Ever more equipment to maintain, and for the driver to remember the location and meaning of.
 

HSTEd

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In what way is conventional signalling increasing in complexity or cost? A lot of the new LED signals (not just banner repeaters) are like for like swaps. For example, the resignalling of the Gresty Lane area of Crewe has seen minor signal relocations, but on the whole like for like swaps. Traditional filament bulb signals have been swapped out for LED signals and Gresty lane 'box has also gone; control moving to a new panel in Crewe power box. There is a saving on the upkeep of a knackered old structure straight away.

Given that LEDs have a much longer service life than traditional filament bulbs,it seems odd to think that replacing something that will last ten times longer is a cost increase.

We have banner repeaters appearing like mushrooms, and attempts to increase to reduce block lengths have signals appearing all over the place.
All this requires an exponetially increasing amount of support equipment.
Even though each individual component is getting cheaper to maintain does not mean the system is doing so.

It is hard to believe that the net expenditure on signalling is actually shrinking as time goes by.
 

moggie

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Norton Bridge was a trial installation as I recall to prove the concept. There was another at Watford. The first at Rugby on the Down was commissioned late 2008 as part of the WCML works. Quite a few other locations were similarly fitted around the same time. It's now more unusual to spec a 2 aspect style banner these days.
 

HSTEd

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Can't say I've seen many banners 'mushrooming' on the routes I sign, but as they are an aid to the aspect of the signal I can't see around the corner, they are a welcome addition.

Lots seem to have appeared in the vicinity of Grantham station in recent years.

Additionally cab signalling is the ultimate banner repeater ;)
And is much simpler to engineer using ERTMS type technologies.
 

Barn

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Maze Hill had a classic "white only" banner repeater installed recently due to a platform extension moving the signal back on the down line.

Now that I understand that one of the main purposes of the green version is actually to allow trains to maintain their speed, I wonder whether the newer style wasn't needed here as most trains will stop at the platform anyway?
 
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