Leeds to newbury racecourse: delay due to missed connection

[Richard Hall]

Hi

I travelled from Leeds to newbury racecourse via KX, Paddington and Newbury on Monday

1515 from Leeds
1803 from Paddington arrived late into Newbury
1851 from Newbury left without us so missed connection with over an hour wait

Did I have to stick to the suggested timings on the app or like I have done jump on the quickest trains to claim a delay repay?

 

[JN114]

Hi

I travelled from Leeds to newbury racecourse via KX, Paddington and Newbury on Monday

1515 from Leeds
1803 from Paddington arrived late into Newbury
1851 from Newbury left without us so missed connection with over an hour wait

Did I have to stick to the suggested timings on the app or like I have done jump on the quickest trains to claim a delay repay?

Your delay was on GWR, who do not operate a delay repay scheme. Compensation may be due, but it depends on exactly how late you were and whether it is deemed the root cause of your delay was within the control of the railway industry.

https://t.co/kZncdam7bx

 

[Tetchytyke]

Did I have to stick to the suggested timings on the app or like I have done jump on the quickest trains to claim a delay repay?

There is a minimum connection time across London, which will be respected within the journey planner. There are also rules that (generally) prevent doubling-back through the destination station and there is no specific easement allowing you to double-back through Newbury Racecourse.

Had you stuck to your itinerary you would have arrived two minutes late, therefore I do not see how you could claim compensation for a late arrival.

 

[island]

I’m afraid the cause of your delay is that you doubled-back between Newbury Racecourse and Newbury, which is against your ticket’s conditions. Whilst the 18:03 Paddington to Penzance isn’t a strictly valid connection (in principle the first valid connection would have been the 18:15 to Swansea) your mistake was not alighting that train at Reading at 18:28 and awaiting the 19:10 to Newbury which would have got you to Newbury Racecourse for 19:39. Whilst your desired connection (the 18:51 Newbury to Paddington), had you made it, would have got you to Newbury Racecourse at 18:53, and in the event the available train would have got there at 20:14 (did you even take it or did you just walk from Newbury?), compensation cannot be paid as you broke the conditions of your ticket.

If I am wrong and doubling-back is permitted on the ticket, the claim would still fail as the 18:03 Paddington to Penzance was not a valid connection from the 17:27 arrival at Kings Cross – this is a 45-minute connection.

 

[moliones]

I’m afraid the cause of your delay is that you doubled-back between Newbury Racecourse and Newbury, which is against your ticket’s conditions. Whilst the 18:03 Paddington to Penzance isn’t a strictly valid connection (in principle the first valid connection would have been the 18:15 to Swansea) your mistake was not alighting that train at Reading at 18:28 and awaiting the 19:10 to Newbury which would have got you to Newbury Racecourse for 19:10. Whilst your desired connection (the 18:51 Newbury to Paddington), had you made it, would have got you to Newbury Racecourse at 18:53, and in the event the available train would have got there at 20:14 (did you even take it or did you just walk from Newbury?), compensation cannot be paid as you broke the conditions of your ticket.

If I am wrong and doubling-back is permitted on the ticket, the claim would still fail as the 18:03 Paddington to Penzance was not a valid connection from the 17:27 arrival at Kings Cross – this is a 45-minute connection.

I can get National Rail Enquiries to give a connection from Leeds to Newbury Racecourse via Kings Cross, Paddington, and Newbury (though it doesn't show it for the 1515 departure from Leeds, I guess because of the cross-london transfer)
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/LDS/NRC/190218/1445/dep?via=Newbury

 

[Starmill]

There are also rules that (generally) prevent doubling-back through the destination station

There is no general rule that says this. There is a specific rule that doubling back (defined as passing through the same station more than once) is not permitted when tracing mapped routes. These might sound like the same thing but they are often not. NRE allows this, although I do not have time right now to investigate beyond this for myself.

This:

compensation cannot be paid as you broke the conditions of your ticket.

...seems like a very serious accusation to make without being completely certain

 

[Tetchytyke]

These might sound like the same thing but they are often not. NRE allows this, although I do not have time right now to investigate beyond this for myself.

I played with a couple of options and couldn't get NRE to allow the double-back. I'm happy to be corrected.

But in any event, so far as I can see neither the connection in London nor the connection at Newbury is valid, as the latter was less than five minutes (1847 to 1851). Had the OP stuck to his itinerary he would have been exactly 2 minutes late, so no compensation.

 

[sheff1]

I’m afraid the cause of your delay is that you doubled-back between Newbury Racecourse and Newbury, which is against your ticket’s conditions.

I can't see where the type of ticket held by the OP is stated. Have I missed something ?

NRE routinely gives itineraries via Newbury for walk up tickets (but, as already stated, not for the 1515 from Leeds due to the cross London connection time)

 

[najaB]

There is no general rule that says this

It's a good thing then that @Arctic Troll didn't say that there was.

 

[island]

As I said, even if I am wrong that the OP performed an invalid double-back, the point about the 18:03 train not being a valid connection still stands.

Arctic Troll’s point about an invalid connection at Newbury would not, however – the 18:03 Paddington to Penzance arrives at Newbury at 18:45 (and departs at 18:47), giving six minutes to make the 18:51.

 

[Richard Hall]

National rail Paddington advises 1803 from Paddington to newbury racecourse via newbury as a valid connection

 

[Haywain]

But not from the arrival time at Kings Cross in the OP's case.

 

[Richard Hall]

I was the OP

 

[Haywain]

So you were, but that doesn't alter the fact that National Rail does not show the 18:03 as a valid connection from the 15:15 departure from Leeds.

 

[najaB]

Let me see if I got this correct:

• You travelled on the 1515 from Leeds to Kings Cross arrival time 1727
• You then had to travel from Kings Cross to Paddington, this involved
  • The minimum transfer time at Kings Cross of 15 minutes,
  • The cross-London link of 15 minutes
  • The minimum transfer time at Paddington of 15 minutes
• Which means the earliest valid departure from Paddington would have been at 1812

I can't see how you have a claim.

 

[Muzer]

Yeah. The fact that the claim is for the journey and not an individual leg of it works both ways. Though it means you can claim for missed connections due to a delay of a few minutes which delays your complete journey by a much longer period, it also means you can't claim when a section of your journey is delayed that means the overall journey is still "on time". While a claim might be accepted depending on how much info you leave out in your claim to GWR, this would not, in fact, be valid, and in fact I suspect some legal experts on this forum would tell you that doing this is fraud.


In terms of the validity of the double-back via Newbury, off the top of my head I cannot think of anything that would disallow it.

 

[yorkie]

Hi

I travelled from Leeds to newbury racecourse via KX, Paddington and Newbury on Monday

1515 from Leeds
1803 from Paddington arrived late into Newbury
1851 from Newbury left without us so missed connection with over an hour wait

Did I have to stick to the suggested timings on the app or like I have done jump on the quickest trains to claim a delay repay?

The question does not make sense, but delay compensation is based on valid itineraries. You do not state your ticket type but I assume you were travelling on a flexible fare.

The 1515 from Leeds has an earliest official arrival time into Newbury Racecourse of 1939. So, with either of those trains, the earliest officially contracted arrival time for delay compensation purposes is the 1939 arrival into Newbury Racecourse. Any delay has to be measured against that time.

A Leeds to Newbury Racecourse walk-up fare is permitted to travel via Newbury; the 1803 does have a valid connection into the 1851 departure, due to arrive Newbury Racecourse 1853.

You don't state your actual arrival into your destination, nor your ticket type, which makes it difficult for us to assist you. I believe the next train was the 2011, which had an actual arrival time into Newbury Racecourse at 2019.

Your overall delay can therefore considered to be 40 minutes. You can claim on that basis.

But I strongly advise you ensure your Delay Repay claims, as well as any posts on this forum, are easy to follow

 

[Muzer]

The question does not make sense, but delay compensation is based on valid itineraries. You do not state your ticket type but I assume you were travelling on a flexible fare.

The 1515 from Leeds has an earliest official arrival time into Newbury Racecourse of 1939. So, with either of those trains, the earliest officially contracted arrival time for delay compensation purposes is the 1939 arrival into Newbury Racecourse. Any delay has to be measured against that time.

A Leeds to Newbury Racecourse walk-up fare is permitted to travel via Newbury; the 1803 does have a valid connection into the 1851 departure, due to arrive Newbury Racecourse 1853.

You don't state your actual arrival into your destination, nor your ticket type, which makes it difficult for us to assist you. I believe the next train was the 2011, which had an actual arrival time into Newbury Racecourse at 2019.

Your overall delay can therefore considered to be 40 minutes. You can claim on that basis.

But I strongly advise you ensure your Delay Repay claims, as well as any posts on this forum, are easy to follow

If that's the case, then unless GWR don't follow their own rules (not unheard of; I've had more compensation than I was due awarded before due to GWR being confused by their own stupid rules!), a forty-minute delay on a long-distance service is not eligible for any compensation.

 

[island]

The question does not make sense, but delay compensation is based on valid itineraries. You do not state your ticket type but I assume you were travelling on a flexible fare.

The 1515 from Leeds has an earliest official arrival time into Newbury Racecourse of 1939. So, with either of those trains, the earliest officially contracted arrival time for delay compensation purposes is the 1939 arrival into Newbury Racecourse. Any delay has to be measured against that time.

A Leeds to Newbury Racecourse walk-up fare is permitted to travel via Newbury; the 1803 does have a valid connection into the 1851 departure, due to arrive Newbury Racecourse 1853.

You don't state your actual arrival into your destination, nor your ticket type, which makes it difficult for us to assist you. I believe the next train was the 2011, which had an actual arrival time into Newbury Racecourse at 2019.

Your overall delay can therefore considered to be 40 minutes. You can claim on that basis.

But I strongly advise you ensure your Delay Repay claims, as well as any posts on this forum, are easy to follow

Disagreed for the reasons posted by myself and Muzer.

 

[yorkie]

The GWR form has "30-59 minutes" as an option: https://www.gwr.com/help-and-support/refunds-and-compensation/delay-compensation

You are right that clicking the almost hidden grey text stating "How it works" brings up a complicated set of limitations, in which detailed knowledge is required of historical services, and those with such knowledge may well reach the conclusion that the value of the claim would be zero. As Muzer says, the rules are "stupid" and they may well pay out anyway due to confusion.

I would argue "Your overall delay can therefore considered to be 40 minutes. You can claim on that basis." is still technically correct. They may not pay out, but you can legitimately still put the claim in on the basis of a 40 minute delay and you may get compensation though it is not guaranteed.

 

[JamesRowden]

The GWR form has "30-59 minutes" as an option: https://www.gwr.com/help-and-support/refunds-and-compensation/delay-compensation

You are right that clicking the almost hidden grey text stating "How it works" brings up a complicated set of limitations, in which detailed knowledge is required of historical services, and those with such knowledge may well reach the conclusion that the value of the claim would be zero. As Muzer says, the rules are "stupid" and they may well pay out anyway due to confusion.

I would argue "Your overall delay can therefore considered to be 40 minutes. You can claim on that basis." is still technically correct. They may not pay out, but you can legitimately still put the claim in on the basis of a 40 minute delay and you may get compensation though it is not guaranteed.

The passenger would arrive at the destination station before 19:39 by walking.

 

[JamesRowden]

The arrival time of 20:19 can only be produced by specifying via Newbury. Via Newbury has the scheduled arrival time of 20:19 if one caught the 15:15 from Leeds.

 

[tiptoptaff]

According to journey planner, the first valid literary shows the 1815 PAD-RDG then 1910 RDG-NRC.

The 1815 was 7 minutes late, but connection was maintained with the 1910, which arrived Newbury Racecourse 9 minutes late.

As such, on that literary upon which a claim for this journey can be based, you would not get any compensation for being 9 minutes late.

You didn't take an officially valid connection, and if you had, you'd have only been 9 minutes late. I don't see how you can have a valid claim because you ended up delayed on a service that you (technically) should not have been on.

 

[cactustwirly]

If that's the case, then unless GWR don't follow their own rules (not unheard of; I've had more compensation than I was due awarded before due to GWR being confused by their own stupid rules!), a forty-minute delay on a long-distance service is not eligible for any compensation.

But Paddington to Newbury comes under the Thames valley rules ,which states they will pay out if you are delayed by 30 minutes or more, on a journey less than an hour.

 

[najaB]

But Paddington to Newbury comes under the Thames valley rules which states they will pay out if you are delayed by 30 minutes or more on a journey less than an hour

Which would be fine if the journey being made was from Padding to Newbury.

 

[yorkie]

The arrival time of 20:19 can only be produced by specifying via Newbury. Via Newbury has the scheduled arrival time of 20:19 if one caught the 15:15 from Leeds.

I am unsure what point you are trying to make, but as I said above, the contracted scheduled arrival time on an itinerary from Leeds is 1939. But there is nothing to stop someone taking the 18:03 from Paddington, which is a valid connection into the 18:51 from Newbury.

According to journey planner, the first valid literary shows the 1815 PAD-RDG then 1910 RDG-NRC.

The 1815 was 7 minutes late, but connection was maintained with the 1910, which arrived Newbury Racecourse 9 minutes late.

As such, on that literary upon which a claim for this journey can be based, you would not get any compensation for being 9 minutes late.

You didn't take an officially valid connection, and if you had, you'd have only been 9 minutes late. I don't see how you can have a valid claim because you ended up delayed on a service that you (technically) should not have been on.

As explained, the delay is 40 minutes.

Making an earlier train from Paddington does not invalidate a claim, nor does it change the contracted scheduled arrival time.

It must be fairly unusual that a passenger would initially make an earlier connection than planned, but then later in the journey end up missing a connection that makes them later than if they had not made that earlier connection. But it can happen, and it did in this case.

Which would be fine if the journey being made was from Padding to Newbury.

If the Paddington to Newbury route is one which entitles to a customer for compensation if the delay was 30 minutes or more, then clearly the delay experienced in this case does qualify.

 

[najaB]

If the Paddington to Newbury route is one which entitles to a customer for compensation if the delay was 30 minutes or more, then clearly the delay experienced in this case does qualify.

Surely it's the journey being made that matters. You can't have it both ways.

 

[JamesRowden]

I am unsure what point you are trying to make, but as I said above, the contracted scheduled arrival time on an itinerary from Leeds is 1939. But there is nothing to stop someone taking the 18:03 from Paddington, which is a valid connection into the 18:51 from Newbury.

As explained, the delay is 40 minutes.

Making an earlier train from Paddington does not invalidate a claim, nor does it change the contracted scheduled arrival time.

It must be fairly unusual that a passenger would initially make an earlier connection than planned, but then later in the journey end up missing a connection that makes them later than if they had not made that earlier connection. But it can happen, and it did in this case.

If the Paddington to Newbury route is one which entitles to a customer for compensation if the delay was 30 minutes or more, then clearly the delay experienced in this case does qualify.

Via Newbury the contracted arrival time was 20:19, not 19:39.

 

[Muzer]

Via Newbury the contracted arrival time was 20:19, not 19:39.

So what? The same fare is valid both via Newbury and direct from Reading. The contracted arrival time is therefore 19:39. Because the passenger arrived early at Paddington they are perfectly entitled to catch an earlier train that would get them in earlier than this by valid connections if it's valid on their ticket.

 

[JamesRowden]

So what? The same fare is valid both via Newbury and direct from Reading. The contracted arrival time is therefore 19:39. Because the passenger arrived early at Paddington they are perfectly entitled to catch an earlier train that would get them in earlier than this by valid connections if it's valid on their ticket.

If one can walk faster than scheduled within London Terminals then why can't one walk the 17 minutes from Newbury to Newbury Racecourse and arrive before 19:39 rather than waiting over an hour for a train? Did the OP really wait over an hour for a train or did they just walk or get a lift to their ultimate destination?