Leeds Trams

[yoyothehobo]

Looking at the consultation, they're clearly trying to big up the option via Laisterdyke, Pudsey, and Wortley. It'll be interesting how they serve Pudsey, I can only assume it'll be through on-street running.

I'd agree about serving Tyersal, it's an estate that has long been forgotten about by Leeds City Council because of its geography.

I certainly think this would be the best option, the question is would you look at having a tram to train interchange at New Pudsey station/Owlcotes centre, though it is a dog leg from what would be the best route between the two

 

[Ken H]

Is it really though? The time penalty for crossing Bradford on a tram train to Huddersfield would be such that there is a minimal gains compared to just going via Leeds.

The people of the Aire Valley are nearly all travelling to Bradford and Leeds.

The study needs to identify the flows that have a lot of people and currently poorly catered for

Leeds/Bradford - Otley, Wetherby.

 

[thomalex]

I posted these to another forum (Skyscrapercity) on how you could go about reusing the old Pudsey railway line and this is the best I can do with the smallest amount of demolition involved. I also think if this were to happen a lot of the crossings would be level with the road rather than dug down into it's previous cutting and all the new bridges that would require.


Section 1. There would be 4 detached houses to demolish to get the line through here. Rather stupidly these were built relatively recently (in the past decade I believe) but there just isn't another way though here. The large empty area adjacent to Lowtown seems a good spot to site the first stop.

Section 2. Again looking to minimal demolition I think you could get the line down the centre of the sheltered housing estate with the addition of two new access roads. Some land would then need to be taken from the top of the allotments and a garage would be lost. There would then be 3 flats/houses buildings that would realistically have to be demolished. The green space to the right is currently having new houses built on it so that can't be used.

Section 3. This is an easy run along the existing railway to Robin Lane. I'm not sure how frequent you would want stations but certainly potential for a station here which is the closest to the town centre.

Section 4. This is again a nice easy run. I can't see them digging out the previous cutting so there would be some sections where the trams crossed the road, or some roads could be split so no traffic crosses the trams path.

Section 5. You should just be able to squeeze in the line in a gap just to the north of the sheltered housing to the east here. The warehouse building shown here would need to be demolished and we have our third stop on the site of the former Pudsey Greenside station. The line then descends under the Carlisle Road bridge and into Greenside tunnel towards Tyersal which I would expect to be the next stop.

It's certainly ambitious, and I can see a lot of opposition from those who would be affected, but conversely I can also see a lot of support and it's a better option than plowing down existing roads full of traffic and serves a town of 30k+ which currently has limited transport options. You have the added benefit of land that would be activated for development around Tyersal and down Bowling Back Lane towards the centre of Bradford. It's also a much quieter route in than going down Leeds Road traffic wise.

It can also be argued that the existing railway with New Pudsey station, Bramley station (and maybe with a reopened Stannningley station midway) already serve the corridor along Stanningley Road adequately without the need for an adjacent tram line that would largely be duplicating it.

 

[edwin_m]

It's quite common for tramways on former railways to cross intersecting roads on the level. Filling the cutting or removing the embankment makes more space for landscaping and sound barriers and if a stop is needed, it's better for actual and perceived security not to have it at street level.

From the photos in the previous post I'd say most of it looks a plausible alignment but passing through the sheltered housing in the second photo is probably marginal for acceptability.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Inserted is an image of the proposed routes at the moment, with options B2 and B3 both using the old line through Pudsey, as in your suggestion above. Not sure what the best way to get from Pudsey to Stanningley Road is as a balance of buildability vs cost vs people served. My thoughts would be its better to go up Swinnow Lane, however you run into the issue of the bridge near the Fire Station not being the biggest.

 

[rapmastaj]

It's exciting to see some actual plans at last! Pudsey is very poorly served by public transport at the moment, so a route via there could work nicely. It finally seems like this might really happen.

I'm guessing they prefer one of the Pudsey routes because those pass closer to the proposed new station in Bradford, though what purpose the new station will serve and whether it's worth it is still a bit of a mystery.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Nice that somethings happeing an last although not keen on parrelling the Leeds Bradford railway.
I was always of the opinion that the Aire Vally is being held back by the difficulties in crossing Bradford and Leeds. A tram or tram train from say Shipley to link with the transpennine around Huddesfield would not be too expensive as lots of dual carriageway and wide roads on the route.
K

There's probably room for a segregated tramway up Manchester Road out of Bradford to beyond Odsal, in place of the current guided busway. You might need to sacrifice a traffic lane in each direction but that's no bad thing really. Once you get past the end of the dual carriageway section it gets tricky though- do you try to find space alongside the road (difficult particularly down the hill through Idle Wyke to Bailiff Bridge), or drop down to Low Moor and use the trackbed of the Spen Valley route?

Are you doing trams right through to Huddersfield or is the main focus an interchange elsewhere with Trans-Pennine trains? In which case you'd be looking at trams terminating somewhere like Ravensthorpe or Mirfield which are (a) not able to be served by fast trains post-upgrade, and (b) a bit of a nothing destination unless you're travelling onwards by train.

 

[AndyHudds]

There's probably room for a segregated tramway up Manchester Road out of Bradford to beyond Odsal, in place of the current guided busway. You might need to sacrifice a traffic lane in each direction but that's no bad thing really. Once you get past the end of the dual carriageway section it gets tricky though- do you try to find space alongside the road (difficult particularly down the hill through Idle Wyke to Bailiff Bridge), or drop down to Low Moor and use the trackbed of the Spen Valley route?

Are you doing trams right through to Huddersfield or is the main focus an interchange elsewhere with Trans-Pennine trains? In which case you'd be looking at trams terminating somewhere like Ravensthorpe or Mirfield which are (a) not able to be served by fast trains post-upgrade, and (b) a bit of a nothing destination unless you're travelling onwards by train.

If you could somehow get it to Dewsbury from the Spen Valley at Ravensthorpe to interchange for Huddersfield? I'm not sure how you'd get it to Dewsbury from there though, logistically or without breaking the bank with the need for new heavyweight infrastructure. I do think they need to be targeting poorly served areas of West Yorkshire which are rail wastelands with thus scheme like the Spen Valley, Wetherby, LBA. I guess the serving any of these areas are light years away though, if ever.

 

[stuartmoss]

The Leeds - Armley - Laisterdyke route seems to be favoured from Bradford Council.

Bradford Council selects preferred route for tram to Leeds

Council wants line to regenerate area with potential for 'significant' housing growth.

www.bbc.co.uk

The council has selected an option that would take the tram system through Laisterdyke and Armley rather than see it pass through Stanningley or Wortley.

This proposal would utilise a disused railway line to the north of Holme Wood, a route through the Parry Lane Enterprise Zone and run along Bowling Back Lane to Wakefield Road.

It would then approach the city centre via Bridge Street and Market Street before stopping at Forster Square Station.

The council said the route had the best chance of directly serving the Southern Gateway area, which had been identified for regeneration and as having potential for new housing growth...

I'm not sure of the specifics of the exact route but would it provide a lifeline to Tyersal? Some of which is within Leeds and some of which is within Bradford.

I seem to remember from my last circular walk from New Pudsey station via Tyersal that what looked like a disused railway line went beneath the main road through Tyersal, which also served as the Leeds / Bradford border. Is this where the tram would go?

 

[thejuggler]

The Leeds - Armley - Laisterdyke route seems to be favoured from Bradford Council.

Bradford Council selects preferred route for tram to Leeds

Council wants line to regenerate area with potential for 'significant' housing growth.

www.bbc.co.uk

I'm not sure of the specifics of the exact route but would it provide a lifeline to Tyersal? Some of which is within Leeds and some of which is within Bradford. I seem to remember from my last circular walk from New Pudsey station via Tyersal that what looked like a disused railway line went beneath the main road through Tyersal, which also served as the Leeds / Bradford border. Is this where the tram would go?

Yes. The route between Laisterdyke and Pudsey on the map above is on the old railway route (still visible on Google Earth). The downside is it completely misses Tyersal and travels through greenbelt. If the tram is to provide public transport to residential areas it needs to be realigned to run through the housing estate.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

My friend from Leeds was telling me she's furious that a route to Bradford is being prioritised over other suburbs close to Leeds without a railway service.

 

[DanNCL]

My friend from Leeds was telling me she's furious that a route to Bradford is being prioritised over other suburbs close to Leeds without a railway service.

A Bradford route had to be done first, it was never going to get funding to get it off the ground if it only benefited Leeds. Later lines shouldn’t have that issue.

 

[daodao]

A Bradford route had to be done first

Why? There are already good rail passenger services via 2 routes from Bradford to Leeds.

 

[DanNCL]

Why? There are already good rail passenger services via 2 routes from Bradford to Leeds.

Politics. It would be politically unacceptable for the West Yorkshire Combined Authority to spend such a large amount of money on a project that would only benefit Leeds. A project that benefits both Leeds and Bradford on the other hand, much more likely to get past the politicians.

 

[thomalex]

Why? There are already good rail passenger services via 2 routes from Bradford to Leeds.

I think there’s a misunderstanding when it comes to trams between Leeds and Bradford being to travel between the two cities, it’s more the places in between that will benefit from having access to rapid transit and regeneration and development opportunities it will provide. And of course with it benefitting two cities that helps politically to get the funding.

 

[thejuggler]

Why? There are already good rail passenger services via 2 routes from Bradford to Leeds.

If you want to go centre to centre you do indeed use the heavy rail. If you only want to do some of the middle section of a 10 mile journey options are limited. Buses aren't reliable, are slow and aren't frequent enough leading to capacity issues at peak times.

 

[rapmastaj]

The 'Bradford' route will be much more useful to Leeds residents than the 'Leeds' route. The Bradford route will probably pass through Armley and Pudsey, giving tram access to large numbers of people, while (depending on which route is picked) the southern part of the Leeds route might end up mostly going through industrial estates.

 

[GardenRail]

The 'Bradford' route will be much more useful to Leeds residents than the 'Leeds' route. The Bradford route will probably pass through Armley and Pudsey, giving tram access to large numbers of people, while (depending on which route is picked) the southern part of the Leeds route might end up mostly going through industrial estates.

Great shame that it isn't getting pushed through to Wakefield from White Rose....

 

[rapmastaj]

Great shame that it isn't getting pushed through to Wakefield from White Rose....

I think they want to push it to Dewsbury. But that'll be in Phase 2.

 

[GardenRail]

I think they want to push it to Dewsbury. But that'll be in Phase 2.

Ahhh, I'll be dead by then

 

[TheWierdOne]

Mott MacDonald – Jacobs Consortium appointed as design development partner for transformative UK Transit Programme | Mott MacDonald

West Yorkshire Mass Transit Programme will connect communities and advance growth

www.mottmac.com

A Mott MacDonald and Jacobs consortium has been appointed as the Design Development Partner by the West Yorkshire Combined Authority (The CA) in the next phase of the West Yorkshire Mass Transit Programme – an advanced, high-capacity public transport system to be integrated with cycling, walking and rail, to connect communities across the region.

 

[thejuggler]

The report from the first round of consultation has now been released.

Your Voice

Stay informed by joining Your Voice

www.yourvoice.westyorks-ca.gov.uk

 

[TheWierdOne]

The report from the first round of consultation has now been released.

Your Voice

Stay informed by joining Your Voice

www.yourvoice.westyorks-ca.gov.uk

Good to see this released. At the risk of sounding slightly autocratic I don’t think I anyone doubted the desire for a tram system and most people would’ve wanted to get spades out rather than consult on the fine detail, but better to jump through the hoops and tick all the boxes than have some nutcase cancel it using a missed form as an excuse.

 

[Barry169]

IIRC Leeds and Bradford tram systems had different gauges.

There was one inter-urban line that had trams that could change gauge.

 

[EyeKay]

IIRC Leeds and Bradford tram systems had different gauges.

There was one inter-urban line that had trams that could change gauge.

That’s right. The gauge change happened at Stanningley. There was a tapered section of track and the wheels slid sideways on the axles. Bradford was 4ft and Leeds was standard gauge.

 

[geoffk]

Is it planned to follow Nottingham and part-fund the system through a Workplace Parking Levy? The Nottingham scheme (still the only one on Europe?) raised over £90m for sustainable transport.

 

[SkinnyFists]

Is it planned to follow Nottingham and part-fund the system through a Workplace Parking Levy? The Nottingham scheme (still the only one on Europe?) raised over £90m for sustainable transport.

The Nottingham workplace parking levy (WPL) is still the only one in the world except for 3 in Australia. Leeds city council, not wyca who are leading on mass transit despite this thread title, are working up a WPL. There was some press coverage last month and some of this revenue would go towards mass transit development and operation. Interestingly, the UK WPL legislation states that WPL revenue is hypothecated for sustainable transport provision.

 

[geoffk]

The Nottingham workplace parking levy (WPL) is still the only one in the world except for 3 in Australia. Leeds city council, not wyca who are leading on mass transit despite this thread title, are working up a WPL. There was some press coverage last month and some of this revenue would go towards mass transit development and operation. Interestingly, the UK WPL legislation states that WPL revenue is hypothecated for sustainable transport provision.

We ought to make more use of this legislation as we have fallen well behind France and Spain, which, like the UK, closed most of their tram systems during and after WW2 but which have opened many more new systems than the UK since the 1980s.

 

[Ben427]

The Nottingham workplace parking levy (WPL) is still the only one in the world except for 3 in Australia. Leeds city council, not wyca who are leading on mass transit despite this thread title, are working up a WPL. There was some press coverage last month and some of this revenue would go towards mass transit development and operation. Interestingly, the UK WPL legislation states that WPL revenue is hypothecated for sustainable transport provision.

Leeds City Council aren't leading on Mass Transit. WYCA are, and any claim to the contrary is incorrect.

The WPL is for the local contributions that all constituent LAs will have to make towards Mass Transit.

 

[YorksLad12]

Leeds City Council aren't leading on Mass Transit. WYCA are, and any claim to the contrary is incorrect.

Which is what he wrote:

The Nottingham workplace parking levy (WPL) is still the only one in the world except for 3 in Australia. Leeds city council, not wyca who are leading on mass transit despite this thread title, are working up a WPL. There was some press coverage last month and some of this revenue would go towards mass transit development and operation. Interestingly, the UK WPL legislation states that WPL revenue is hypothecated for sustainable transport provision.

In the specific case of Leeds though, I'd like to see some movement back towards the CAZ/LEZ plans that were abandoned, with any funds raised ploughed back into integrated transport schemes including Mass Transit.