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Leicestershire train driver who ran red signal found five times over alcohol limit

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When I started with LUL in 1990 my first Station Supervisors post at Canon Street involved surviving Friday late shifts in the Grapes which was coded as "The Mess Room" for any and all interactions with anyone outside of the Group when bodies needed locating/messages responded too.

Just one of the reasons I was pleased the TWA1992 came in was because financially and liver-health-wise I couldn't keep up that pace.

Suffice to say in the transition from that old-world to new quite a few old soaks (former Inspectors, RCIs and DSMs) fell foul of testing. Zero tolerance really was (and is) zero, so this chap doesn't really have a wooden leg to stand on here.
 
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Zamracene749

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I agree with all you say here, but your moniker "beermaddavep" appears to glorify the issue/problem. Sorry if I've misunderstood it.
You've understood it perfectly well. It dates back to the very early days on this forum, at a time when alcohol was my escape from some rather unpleasant life events. As mentioned earlier, I have no idea how to change it!
Totally disagree. What do you suggest - a higher limit for driving a train than a car?
Of course I'm not suggesting a higher limit for rail or any other safety critical staff.

Sadly, alcoholism is a real issue, that no amount of sanctimony will make go away.
Very low limits just make alcoholics think 'might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb'.
It's a messed way of thinking, but it's how some will rationalise having a few more than they should, the idea of not having any at all is anathema to their stressed mind.
 

12LDA28C

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Of course I'm not suggesting a higher limit for rail or any other safety critical staff.

Sadly, alcoholism is a real issue, that no amount of sanctimony will make go away.
Very low limits just make alcoholics think 'might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb'.
It's a messed way of thinking, but it's how some will rationalise having a few more than they should, the idea of not having any at all is anathema to their stressed mind.

No sanctimony here. I agree that an open culture where anyone who has a problem is encouraged to come forward and seek help is absolutely the right approach. However, I also believe the very low limit is quite right and all the drivers I know (which is a great many) respect it and don't take the risk.
 

MarkWi72

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I work with people who used to do exactly that! The railway was a different world up until the early 1990s, and the culture is (rightly) totally different now, of course.

AIUI the 13mcg figure is as close to zero as possible, given that trace alcohol can be produced naturally by the human body, so an actual zero would be impossible.



Do we hear of many pilots being over the limit?! Their limit is (AIUI) the same as the railway limit and applies to cabin crew and other staff, also.
In 1990, the fatal accident at Stafford, when an EMU driver smacked into the rear of a Manchester- Plymouth (I think) train, could have been the catalyst for more stringent checking of alcohol levels on staff.
 

dk1

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In 1990, the fatal accident at Stafford, when an EMU driver smacked into the rear of a Manchester- Plymouth (I think) train, could have been the catalyst for more stringent checking of alcohol levels on staff.

From what I recall, nobody at the time paid any attention until the Hidden recommendations were implemented following the Clapham disaster a few years earlier.
 

chuff chuff

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From what I recall, nobody at the time paid any attention until the Hidden recommendations were implemented following the Clapham disaster a few years earlier.
Yeah it's got to be around then it got serious,miraculously it was also around then severance schemes came out allowing many of the worst offenders escape before being found out by the new rules.
 

dk1

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Yeah it's got to be around then it got serious,miraculously it was also around then severance schemes came out allowing many of the worst offenders escape before being found out by the new rules.

Yes the helping hand was offered to anyone who admitted to drink & substance issues.
 

falcon

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Going back 25 years now but i know a guy that worked in a signal box in Leicester and was fired for failing a breathalyser but kept his company pension though all travel privileges were withdrawn.
If a member of railway staff is sacked they do not lose their pension.

The pensions the member has accrued is in a separate entity and the railway has no control over the employees pension.

If the employee has been sacked for an offence that has cost the company money the company can apply to recover the losses from the members pension fund. The application is very limit as it cannot cause a hardship and is subject to challenge by the member.

The signal man did not have his travel privileges withdrawn because he was fired, he lost them because he left the railway. IE if he had left of his own vocation he would still have lost his travel privileges.
 

WAB

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Personally I think it's hypocrisy for a transport organisation to host functions where alchohol is served. When if an employee went to such a function outside working hours would possibly lead to disciplinary action

It also creates an impression that managment do not abide by the same rules as employees
If management are not undertaking safety-critical duties within the relevant period, then is there anything wrong with them consuming alcohol at a work event?
 

185143

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If management are not undertaking safety-critical duties within the relevant period, then is there anything wrong with them consuming alcohol at a work event?
No, but it's hardly a good example to set is it.

See the outrage over Boris and Co doing the same thing during 2020/2021!
 

matt_world2004

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If management are not undertaking safety-critical duties within the relevant period, then is there anything wrong with them consuming alcohol at a work event?
The consumption of alchohol is banned for all staff in the tfl drugs and alchohol policy not just operational ones. With it being permitted only at third party events ,

An event within a TfL building is not a third party event.
 

norbitonflyer

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If management are not undertaking safety-critical duties within the relevant period, then is there anything wrong with them consuming alcohol at a work event?
I used to work in a company (not rail related) which required many of its staff to drive, work at height, etc. All company premises, even if only offices and not operational, were "dry".
 

Clarence Yard

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In 1990, the fatal accident at Stafford, when an EMU driver smacked into the rear of a Manchester- Plymouth (I think) train, could have been the catalyst for more stringent checking of alcohol levels on staff.

It was Cannon Street (1991) that led to the restrictions and the testing regime. The Transport and Works Act 1992 was a direct consequence of that accident.
 

pitdiver

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I have had personal experience of what alcohol can do to the body. My son died of Alcoholic Ketoacidosis. Not a pleasant way to go. He was offered help by various agencies but sadly to no avail. He would be intoxicated when his support worker would call for him in the morning. Both my wife and i think alcohol is evil and therefore we don't consume it.
 

Fleetmaster

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If management are not undertaking safety-critical duties within the relevant period, then is there anything wrong with them consuming alcohol at a work event?
It sends out the wrong message. As much as I want to live in a country/society where workers don't adjust their levels of professionalism based on what managers do, even though as workers they typically have absolutely no understanding of the stress and strains of being a manager, this is what we are stuck with. One of the many burdens of management - considering how your actions will be perceived and potentially affect the business.
Sadly, alcoholism is a real issue, that no amount of sanctimony will make go away.
Very low limits just make alcoholics think 'might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb'.
It's a messed way of thinking, but it's how some will rationalise having a few more than they should, the idea of not having any at all is anathema to their stressed mind.
The best performing businesses in this country (which has never included the railways, neither public and depressingly not even private) are already well aware of the issues, and do things like allow for confidential help and advice, up to and including educating employees about the basics of alcoholism, such as the counterproductive mindsets it can lead to.

Blue riband outfits do everything they can to avoid the regulatory and legal aspects preventing employees doing the right thing, and managers are taught that this is squarely in the company's best interest. Sanctimony is absolutely discouraged.

But they're obviously not social workers or family members and they do have hard and fast liabilities and thus responsibilities. The culture of workers not reporting issues they should report for fear of being seen as snitches or company men, is a massive issue in workplaces that have yet to evolve.
I'm not sure how you think that could arise, unless you're suggesting it would result in being over the limit at the start of the next shift. I've attended a number of functions outside normal hours as a representative of my employer and never been told that drinking would be a problem. And that's been backed up by very senior staff getting the drinks in.
Nobody can prevent you drinking out of work if you're in compliance with the apllicable window rules. They can ask you why you drank if there was a reasonable possibility you would be fatigued as a result, for your next shift, and you'd get absolutely nowhere if you tried to argue that nobody told you it was a problem.

Assuming this is a factor in your role of course. Even if it isn't, it's wise to be wise to it, since there are very few typical jobs (especially where you might be representing an employer) where fatigue improves your performance or results in a safer environment.
So there’s the potential issue of going to a work team day, going off for some drinks afterwards, and then dropping back into work simply to pick up something out of the locker. Naturally you wouldn’t be in uniform for that situation, but in theory that is permissible.
The only issue here is what the employer has done (or not done) to give the impression to employees that returning to company property while intoxicated to visit the locker room or indeed do anything they somehow see as a personal rather than a work matter.

In those terms, the issue there is what is happening in practice, for whatever reason, and not any ambiguity in the theory, which unsurprisingly these days says don't do this, even if it's not written down. At a minimum, stay outside and get a colleague to fetch your gear or escort you (which by design discourages frivolous visits). To do otherwise is inherently unsafe when you consider the basic issue of fire safety - the safety of yourself, colleagues and the fire service.

This is why in certain industries, locker rooms are specifically sited and breaks/shifts are deliberately timed to make absolutely sure employees have no temptation or even opportunity to mistake a safety critical environment and a more casual almost home like work environment, even accepting that fire safety considerations apply everywhere.

I dare say that with the widespread use of even basic security measures like keypad entry where locations might be spread out or even unstaffed, means that even if the handbook isn't explicit, employees haven't a leg to stand on in the unlikely event something happens during this errand.
 

lammergeier

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I have had personal experience of what alcohol can do to the body. My son died of Alcoholic Ketoacidosis. Not a pleasant way to go. He was offered help by various agencies but sadly to no avail. He would be intoxicated when his support worker would call for him in the morning. Both my wife and i think alcohol is evil and therefore we don't consume it.
Goodness me. I have nothing to add to this thread, apart from to say I'm very sorry for your loss.
 

TPO

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Im not aware of the railway drink drive limit, as someone else posted further above has already stated it is treated as being zero. However I do believe that it is much lower than the road drink drive limit. I cannot accept the driver was five times over the drink drive limit as being that high he should be unconscious! Five times over the railway limit would be far more lilely but of course doesnt offer the reporters anywhere near as headline grasping sensationalisticism!

Two sets of limits.

(1) The Transport & Works Act 1992 makes it a criminal offence to be in charge of a bit of a rail transport operation e.g. driving a train when under the influence of alcohol. The level is same as for car driving and the breath sample must be taken by "a Constable in uniform."

(2) RSSB publish a set of Rail Industry Standards which train operators on the Mainline are mandated via their Track Access Contract to comply with, one of them is all about D&A. (This approach of RIS's has by and by large replaced Railway Group Standards) and in this case the RIS for D&A also ties back to Reg 24 of ROGs fitness & competence for safety critical duties. In the RIS for drugs and alcohol limits, that is where the alcohol limit is set at about 1/3 the car driving limit and the RIS also says HOW the testing must be done.

Non-mainline operators such as Tubelines must comply with (1) but not specifically the RIS in (2) albeit they will usually adopt their own version of the RSSB document as they must comply with Reg 24 of ROGs.

Which presumably means the occupational health/medscreen “on call” team breathalysed him. I’ve never heard of DMs being trained to do this personally, and really this is something that should be done by someone not known to the individual concerned.

The DM would probably act as the Responsible Manager as per the RIS process. The test house doing the screening needs to be UKAS approved so I doubt any DM is doing the screening, but they will ensure the protocol is followed until Medscreen arrive. Protocol usually includes stuff like being with the person and not allowing them to smoke or eat. The screening person is generally from a specialist contractor.

You can if you (say) take medication that you don’t disclose, or even use something you shouldn’t during your own time which shows up during a random medscreen when at work. Alcohol works through the system very quickly but other illicit substances can AIUI be detected for a month or more.

Even if you haven’t booked on, most D&A policies preclude you from being in non public areas while under the influence. In theory if you went into the depot to pick something up on the way home from the pub on day off you’d be caught.

Yes, many illegal drugs have long lasting metabolites and getting caught with such in your system (and no valid reason such as having been prescribed an opiod painkiller and declared it at the time of testing) is an immediate "fail" as the substances are illegal so should never be taken!

I can find the RIS reference if anyone is interested, the document is in the public domain (in a previous role part of my job was to act as the Responsible Manager for both random and for-cause screening, but it's been a while and I'm a tad rusty on the process, apologies).

TPO
 

MadMac

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(1) The Transport & Works Act 1992 makes it a criminal offence to be in charge of a bit of a rail transport operation e.g. driving a train when under the influence of alcohol. The level is same as for car driving and the breath sample must be taken by "a Constable in uniform"

I attended a briefing from a BTP Sergeant prior to the Act coming into force. He explained that there were two basic offences under the Act: "Under the influence" which would be initially determined by attending officers with subsequent examination by a Police Surgeon, and "Over the limit" for which he explained that the "Rules of the game" were the same as the Road Traffic Act i.e. testing only post-incident or where reasonable grounds for suspicion exist (no random testing) and only by uniformed officers. He also explained that the same limits/penalties applied (refusal was effectively a failure). The "Alcometer" was only to determine if an individual was at or near the limit, and the results of a blood or urine sample would be what determined if charges were to be brought.
 

43066

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Sadly, alcoholism is a real issue, that no amount of sanctimony will make go away.
Very low limits just make alcoholics think 'might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb'.
It's a messed way of thinking, but it's how some will rationalise having a few more than they should, the idea of not having any at all is anathema to their stressed mind.

But that isn’t an argument for not having low limits, it’s an argument for providing an environment where people with a problem can come forward and be supported, which AIUI the railway is pretty good at these days, alongside the increased focus on mental health more generally.

If someone is of the mindset that “I’m going to be caught anyway, so I may as well come to work leathered”, and is prepared to commit a serious criminal act by driving a train under the influence, then I’m afraid they need to be permanently removed from the job, alcoholic or not.

The DM would probably act as the Responsible Manager as per the RIS process. The test house doing the screening needs to be UKAS approved so I doubt any DM is doing the screening, but they will ensure the protocol is followed until Medscreen arrive. Protocol usually includes stuff like being with the person and not allowing them to smoke or eat. The screening person is generally from a specialist contractor.

That is also my understanding.

Yes, many illegal drugs have long lasting metabolites and getting caught with such in your system (and no valid reason such as having been prescribed an opiod painkiller and declared it at the time of testing) is an immediate "fail" as the substances are illegal so should never be taken!

And of course going to (say) Amsterdam for the weekend and using something perfectly legal there wouldn’t be a defence if it showed up in your system the following week in a work medscreen!
 
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Bill EWS

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The rule I got to know of, whether it was correct or not was eight hours clear after just one pint before booking on duty. It wasn't an issue with me as I was never a big drinker and could take it or leave it and mostly left it as I still do today after 17 years retired. I never let drink be an issue when it came to driving. If you have been in an situation where it has become an issue perhaps you should seriously consider cutting back a bit. I recall a few issues where it had become a serious issue with workmates from numerous depots and it was always sad when it caught up with them.
 

Haywain

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Protocol usually includes stuff like being with the person and not allowing them to smoke or eat.
Not smoke or eat or drink anything other than water. If they need the toilet they have to be accompanied. I only had to be the "minder" once and fortunately the person being tested was quite relaxed about it and, it transpired, had nothing to be worried about.
 

matt_world2004

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The rule I got to know of, whether it was correct or not was eight hours clear after just one pint before booking on duty. It wasn't an issue with me as I was never a big drinker and could take it or leave it and mostly left it as I still do today after 17 years retired. I never let drink be an issue when it came to driving. If you have been in an situation where it has become an issue perhaps you should seriously consider cutting back a bit. I recall a few issues where it had become a serious issue with workmates from numerous depots and it was always sad when it caught up with them.
We got told 11 hours in our department . Never been tested though there are a few people in my department who drink during their lunch break
 

Llanigraham

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The DM would probably act as the Responsible Manager as per the RIS process. The test house doing the screening needs to be UKAS approved so I doubt any DM is doing the screening, but they will ensure the protocol is followed until Medscreen arrive. Protocol usually includes stuff like being with the person and not allowing them to smoke or eat. The screening person is generally from a specialist contractor.

Which caused a major problem on our line when there was an incident one hour before shift change and Med Screen said they would not arrive for 4 hours!
 

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Not a safety role, but on Sundays at the end of the 1970s the day turn ticket collector at my station would just spend the afternoon snoozing in his box after visiting the BRSA in his (booked-off) lunch break. Any passenger getting off the few trains who was conscientious would leave their ticket on the shelf, while the Railman would appear a few minutes before departures and make sure that passengers went to the correct platform (of two).
 

mpthomson

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Do we hear of many pilots being over the limit?! Their limit is (AIUI) the same as the railway limit and applies to cabin crew and other staff, also.
Probably more than you'd think, rare but not unheard of in the UK, a small handful of incidents over the last 15yrs, but we don't carry out complete or random testing (pilots are normally only tested if someone raises a concern) so there'll be a greater number than that. In 2015 there were 10 instances of pilots failing a breath test in the US, in India in the same year 46 failed. So not a huge problem, but it's there nonetheless.

Alcohol above the limit is also a feature in about 8-10% of light aircraft crashes from the last published FAA data (so US only).

Yes, many illegal drugs have long lasting metabolites and getting caught with such in your system (and no valid reason such as having been prescribed an opiod painkiller and declared it at the time of testing) is an immediate "fail" as the substances are illegal so should never be taken!

I can find the RIS reference if anyone is interested, the document is in the public domain (in a previous role part of my job was to act as the Responsible Manager for both random and for-cause screening, but it's been a while and I'm a tad rusty on the process, apologies).

TPO
Just be aware that there have been recent tribunals, ie in the last 3 mths, (I was involved in one of them, not as the claimant!) where the judgement has disagreed with this, especially in relation to cannabis, as the none of metabolites present in urine are psychoactive. The judgement was that the presence of metabolites cannot be used to assume impairment or presence of psychoactive substances, even when the employee has admitted to long term cannabis use and use the night before the test.

It depends very much on the wording of the individual company policy, but I suspect that a lot will be tightened up over the next year, to specifically include cannabis metabolites or that testing must be able to pick up active cannabis byproduct. The issue is that this can only be done via saliva or blood, both of which are invasive procedures and therefore someone can't be compelled to consent.

Obviously the police have different powers in relation to this, but even they can’t force someone to have either a saliva or blood test.
 
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Ediswan

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Probably more than you'd think, rare but not unheard of in the UK, a small handful of incidents over the last 15yrs, but we don't carry out complete or random testing (pilots are normally only tested if someone raises a concern) so there'll be a greater number than that. In 2015 there were 10 instances of pilots failing a breath test in the US, in India in the same year 46 failed. So not a huge problem, but it's there nonetheless.
Since Feb 2022, all flight and cabin crew have been subject to alcohol testing, under the UK Ramp Inspection Programme.
 
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