Less than 50% of delay repay being claimed

[Bletchleyite]

So where does the 47% figure come from?

Goodness knows. Some sort of assumption I guess, e.g. assuming people always follow booked itineraries even on walk up tickets on the basis that it'll even out with people who don't follow the itinerary and don't get delayed vs don't follow it and do get delayed.

 

[Djgr]

Which, presumably, nowadays gets mostly remitted to the Department for Transport / Treasury as revenue so that they can then fund Network Rail's delay compensation budget? Is so, then one has to wonder how much money is being spent to administer an utterly pointless activity.


This is so RailUKforums. Every company I worked for would have put its effort into providing a service that ran to time, so avoiding the need to ever actually pay any Delay Repay. Providing ever more sophisticated/easy/elaborate ways of paying compensation seems, to me, to be missing the point.

Perhaps if they paid out the full compensation morally due they might try harder.

I absolutely 100% believe that if private companies receive financial reward for success (which they can use for islands, castles etc.) then they should receive the full financial punishment for failure.

 

[moogal]

Just done one now (LNR's 0747 from LBZ - EUS this morning was 4 cars instead of 12, meaning it turned up full and standing with barely anyone able to board) - and my goodness their delay repay website is appalling. I can easily see why people would get frustrated trying to do the claim, think "ah they'll only give me a couple of quid anyway" and give up in disgust.

 

[mad_rich]

I find the Delay Repay system surprisingly generous - especially when a small delay can lead to a large refund if you miss a connection.

That said, I always claim when I'm eligible, simply because that's the system that's been set up. A chunky refund every now and then more than makes up for an hours delay usually, and helps mitigate the high prices.

Having sent three claims in the last week to three operators, and had to set up three new accounts (separate from the existing accounts at those operators!) for what is essentially a branded version of the exact same website ... I am tempted to think the thing that would improve everybody's life would be a single Delay Repay account for all operators. I can buy my ticket from any retailer, so they should all be able to administer the Delay Repay for me.

 

[1D54]

I was asked to fill in a form and send in paper tickets so didn't bother. Not worth the hassle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having sent three claims in the last week to three operators, and had to set up three new accounts (separate from the existing accounts at those operators!) for what is essentially a branded version of the exact same website ... I am tempted to think the thing that would improve everybody's life would be a single Delay Repay account for all operators. I can buy my ticket from any retailer, so they should all be able to administer the Delay Repay for me.

There was a thread on this a while back, just searched but can't find it, but it was in Speculative if anyone else is better at the search function than me.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

Goodness knows. Some sort of assumption I guess, e.g. assuming people always follow booked itineraries even on walk up tickets on the basis that it'll even out with people who don't follow the itinerary and don't get delayed vs don't follow it and do get delayed.

Edit: the quote above was in reply to https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/less-than-50-of-delay-repay-being-claimed.258410/post-6518389 asking "where does the 47% come from?"

The 47% is from a survey among people who are signed up to one of several multi-purpose survey panels. There were 10,028 passengers who used rail in the last 12 months. Of the 10,028 rail passengers, 4,744 passengers (i.e. 47%) reported that they had experienced a delay that was eligible for compensation. (From the report referenced earlier, p13).

 

[Bikeman78]

Only ever claimed 3 times,
twice got bounced between two companies (through journeys), had to follow up
other time were they adamant train was 29 minutes late (even though doors weren't released to get off until 30 minutes and few seconds (per station digital clock), so didn't get any money

I've noticed that the the stated arrival time on RTT often differs from reality. Clearly the system needs to guess based on the time the train moves into the track circuit but the time the wheels stop turning varies a lot depending upon how cautious the driver is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've noticed that the the stated arrival time on RTT often differs from reality. Clearly the system needs to guess based on the time the train moves into the track circuit but the time the wheels stop turning varies a lot depending upon how cautious the driver is.

Indeed. I did once successfully appeal a case like this, but doggedly sticking to that does give the impression of a customer-unfriendly approach, just like where a cancellation on a half hourly service is seen as 29 minutes because the trains always arrive a minute early.

Setting the actual thresholds to 13/28/58/118 minutes (but continuing to advertise the "round" times) would deal with these issues.

 

[Rail Quest]

Perhaps if they paid out the full compensation morally due they might try harder.

I absolutely 100% believe that if private companies receive financial reward for success (which they can use for islands, castles etc.) then they should receive the full financial punishment for failure.

Whilst I agree in principle with this, just look at the already nationalised operators, specifically TfW and Northern (the examples I have the most experience with). Neither will be using any money saved from not paying DR to pay out to shareholders and yet still - both operators are terribly poor performers.

Whilst forcing companies to pay all compensation on moral grounds may indeed make some companies try harder in other industries, I doubt our railway operators would if the same happened with them.

 

[Taunton]

You might get 47% from those on this forum, comprising rail geeks, but in the real world I suspect the actual figure is nearer 5%.

It must surely be straightforward to calculate, taking various delayed arrivals, having a pretty good estimate of numbers on board, and then finding later how many claims had been paid out for those services.

 

[miami]

Went to claim for one avanti on arrival at euston, but it wouldn't accept it, so gave up and forgot about it.

I normally travel london midland or whatever it's called this week, I tend to claim before I've even left the platform, makes a big difference.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Perhaps if they paid out the full compensation morally due they might try harder.

I absolutely 100% believe that if private companies receive financial reward for success (which they can use for islands, castles etc.) then they should receive the full financial punishment for failure.

Can you give examples of private rail operating companies (or their owners/directors) buying islands or castles out of their rewards under the current arrangements?

 

[lordbusiness]

Personally I think the whole delay repay should be done away with, or it is applied to roads as well.

If my bus is late I don't get anything back from them.
If I'm late or get diverted miles because the council or highways are digging the road up I don't get any compensation.
If someones car breaks down and causes a massive traffic jam I don't sue the car owner.

Why should rail be any different- s**t happens.

Level it up or scrap it.

 

[northwichcat]

Personally I think the whole delay repay should be done away with, or it is applied to roads as well.

If my bus is late I don't get anything back from them.

I think the rules about what happens if the last service is cancelled should apply to buses as well.

If I'm late or get diverted miles because the council or highways are digging the road up I don't get any compensation.

If you're driving you get a choice of whether to divert or not and whether to leave early because of the roadworks. You can't ask a train operator for the service to leave early so that it arrives on time.

If someones car breaks down and causes a massive traffic jam I don't sue the car owner.

Well next time a train breaks down let gets a police officer to guide the trains around the broken one and see how well that works.

Level it up or scrap it.

Don't forget that long distance and international trains compete with flights. Airlines are required to compensate for delays under certain circumstances.

 

[Krokodil]

Can somebody explain exactly how a private company makes a profit from not paying out Delay Repay? I thought that currently the (non-publicly owned) DfT operators basically got a 'fixed fee/percentage'. If revenue is down or refunded it is the Treasury that takes the hit. The DfT is liable for all of the costs, including those extra ones associated with disruption such as staff overtime, taxis or replacement buses for stuck passengers and hotel costs for anyone stranded overnight.

I.e. it's basically 'the taxpayer' who is worse off and the 'TOC' is very largely insulated.

Or have I got this wrong?

No, you're correct. But it's also correct to say that the owning groups are profiting out of this - they make a profit either way.

I find the Delay Repay system surprisingly generous

It's certainly far more generous than anything you'd get in Europe.

Personally I think the whole delay repay should be done away with, or it is applied to roads as well.

If my bus is late I don't get anything back from them.
If I'm late or get diverted miles because the council or highways are digging the road up I don't get any compensation.
If someones car breaks down and causes a massive traffic jam I don't sue the car owner.

Why should rail be any different- s**t happens.

Level it up or scrap it.

Indeed. I was on a bus just now that arrived about 12 minutes late, missing a two-hourly train as a result. I ended up getting another bus to complete my journey, with a total delay of around half an hour. So Arriva have ended up with more money than they would have done had they run to time.

Perhaps Arriva should charge the local council delay minutes. If they did then the council would be incentivised to double-yellow one side of the street, so that without the on-street parking it becomes wide enough for two buses to actually pass.

I think the rules about what happens if the last service is cancelled should apply to buses as well.

To be fair, when this happened to me I phoned the local office (information about bus cancellations is often hard to come by incidentally) and was told to get a taxi and claim it back. Arriva paid up without an issue.

Well next time a train breaks down let gets a police officer to guide the trains around the broken one and see how well that works.

That's exactly what does happen. We even call the person responsible for directing trains down the other line "the Bobby".

 

[al78]

Personally I think the whole delay repay should be done away with, or it is applied to roads as well.

If my bus is late I don't get anything back from them.
If I'm late or get diverted miles because the council or highways are digging the road up I don't get any compensation.
If someones car breaks down and causes a massive traffic jam I don't sue the car owner.

Why should rail be any different- s**t happens.

Level it up or scrap it.

In the vast majority of situations where you are paying for goods or services and they are not of satisfactory quality, you are entitled to compensation. Why should rail be any different?

 

[1Q18]

I travel around frequently by rail on business; when I started this job my colleagues would usually claim delay repay where it was due, but several years ago my employer added a line to our business expenses policy to say that any delay repay should be claimed as travel vouchers and then posted off to our travel agents to be credited against our account… shockingly enough very few of us bother to claim any more because it’s just a bunch of admin to do on top of the inconvenience of having been delayed travelling.

 

[Kite159]

Edit: the quote above was in reply to https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/less-than-50-of-delay-repay-being-claimed.258410/post-6518389 asking "where does the 47% come from?"

The 47% is from a survey among people who are signed up to one of several multi-purpose survey panels. There were 10,028 passengers who used rail in the last 12 months. Of the 10,028 rail passengers, 4,744 passengers (i.e. 47%) reported that they had experienced a delay that was eligible for compensation. (From the report referenced earlier, p13).

So the remaining 53% didn't experience a delay that was eligible for compensation or no delay at all?

 

[LickeyIncliner]

So the remaining 53% didn't experience a delay that was eligible for compensation or no delay at all?

The remaining 53% didn't experience any delay at all, or only a delay that wasn't eligible for Delay Repay compensation - or possibly just don't remember any such delay.

Note that 53% is the original proportion of survey respondents who didn't experience an eligible delay. The data was then weighted so as to be more representative of all rail users in terms of age, gender and region/nation of residence, e.g. if 1% of the survey responses were from Scottish males aged 45-54, but they are believed to make 3% of all rail journeys, each such response was counted as one and a half.

After that adjustment, 52% had experienced an eligible delay, so the proportion who didn't experience any delay at all, or only a delay that wasn't eligible for Delay Repay compensation, would fall to 48% (page 25).

NB the example is my understanding of how the weighting was done - it's not precisely explained, but must be that or something very like (page 24).

 

[Ianmel1969]

Last claim I put in for with GWR was rejected, I appealed and miraculously it was accepted. Makes you wonder if they reject many other claims to try and put people off appealing. Wouldn't put it passed them.

 

[TheSmiths82]

I have claimed for probably around 35% of my journeys in 2023. However most of them have been longer distance ones and I have had a lot of bad luck. I always seem to travel on the day Euston decides it no longer wants to be a train station.

If it is less than £20 unless the journey was particularly bad I wouldn't claim though. My biggest claim was in 2022 when my journey back from Edinburgh went so badly wrong it took over 8 hours to get from Edinburgh to Manchester. Ended up getting my off peak return ticket back.

 

[northwichcat]

That's exactly what does happen. We even call the person responsible for directing trains down the other line "the Bobby".

From my experience on a 2 track line if a train fails the most that gets sent down the wrong way is a rescue train or loco. They may even suspend services in the open direction to allow the rescue to be undertaken.

To be fair, when this happened to me I phoned the local office (information about bus cancellations is often hard to come by incidentally) and was told to get a taxi and claim it back. Arriva paid up without an issue.

I didn't get anything from D&G Bus when due to their driver delaying an already late bus by a further 10 minutes by pulling up to take a phone call then stopping to rant to another driver about parked cars, I missed a connecting bus and had to additionally pay for an Arriva bus to reach my destination. Just a "we'll speak to the driver in question" reply.

Last claim I put in for with GWR was rejected, I appealed and miraculously it was accepted. Makes you wonder if they reject many other claims to try and put people off appealing. Wouldn't put it passed them.

I had the same thing with Northern following a cancelled service on the Manchester-Northwich-Chester line, when I had a return ticket to Manchester. It would be more understandable if it was a journey with multiple legs and more than one train ran behind schedule.

 

[sheff1]

I always claim Delay Repay as a matter of principle.

Or how many people wish to claim but the gateline assistant forces them to put their tickets into the gates which gets captured even after explaining that you were delayed?

I have ever actually encountered such behaviour but if I did I would not put my ticket into the gates no matter how much a assistant {sic} insisted.

I think what is more concerning than the fact that under 50% of people are claiming Delay Repay is how many legitimate claims are being rejected by Tocs on the first occasion. I would estimate in my albeit limited sample size that at least a third of my claims have been rejected by the Toc in the first instance.

Echo this - an effective regulator would clamp down on TOCs who had a system in place which routinely rejected valid claims.

There is a widespread belief that split tickets make you ineligible for delay repay on the full journey

Some TOCs appear to hold that belief as well - LNER, XC for two.

It's certainly far more generous than anything you'd get in Europe.

Quite right too - in my experience everyday reliability/punctuality here in recent years is notably worse than elsewhere, although Germany seems to be making a valiant effort to 'catch up'. I would much prefer my journey to take place in accordance with the timetable than receive compensation for delays in getting where I want to be.

 

[jfollows]

I always claim Delay Repay as a matter of principle.

I agree with you.
I didn't use to claim it, but I now realise that it's the industry's excuse for not holding reasonable connections, and essentially operating the railway for the average overall good rather than for you or me as a person travelling. That's a choice that's been made, and so I'll claim Delay Repay when I fall foul of it, or when I'm delayed for other reasons.

 

[Krokodil]

From my experience on a 2 track line if a train fails the most that gets sent down the wrong way is a rescue train or loco.

It is a lot easier where the signalling is bi-directional. I remember flying past several queued up trains stuck behind a knackered EMU in Deansgate because we hadn't passed the crossover like they had.

Where it isn't a signalled move it's more difficult but not impossible. I was on a southbound Pendolino once that used the trailing crossover that used to be present at Halton Junction to avoid the downed wires between there and Weaver Junction. Unfortunately ground frame controlled emergency crossovers are seldom used as the MOM is needed these days but resignalling is steadily catching up.

 

[johnr57]

I too always claim, with LNER the whole process can be automated. I remember being on the 1900 Kgx Edb and had my automated refund in my bank before I realised it was to cancelled at Doncaster

 

[Tetchytyke]

I always used to claim as a matter of principle, especially with London Midland who were always abysmal.

These days I’m not travelling so frequently so I don’t, especially as I no longer have the accounts needed. Most recently delayed Manchester Piccadilly-Airport, a 20 minute delay but the payout would have been about 50p. Not worth the effort.

Can you give examples of private rail operating companies (or their owners/directors) buying islands or castles out of their rewards under the current arrangements

Gloag bought herself a lovely castle, although of course her rampant profiteering was out of the previous- far more restrictive and ungenerous- compensation regime.

 

[lrailadventure]

Northern have delayed me so many times over the last couple of months that I've resorted to always putting in a claim even if it's only £0.50 worth. Money's tight, if I'm not getting the service they imply they're providing, they're not keeping all my pennies

Only exception is when I've been delayed by emergency services dealing with an incident. I still put in the claim, but let them give the money to charity.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

I claim delay repay, mostly from GTR. I used to have loads of rejections, which I appealed (sometimes multiple appeals) and they all paid out.
Most were due to missing a connection, on a 2 trains a hour service.
The worst one I had to appeal 5 times for a 30min delay, the 6th appeal to customer services send me to rail voucher for the full fare as a apology.

However, since GTR updated their system where you select the trains you used and where you changed trains, I've had no rejections at all.