Lewisham station potential improvement proposed

[NorthKent1989]

That first part is a load of nonsense, they defintley won't. Only reason that would happen would be if the railways budget was ever destroyed, but then you can bet that Overground services would also be getting cut.

The idea that many stations across SE London (an area of population growth by the way) having only 2tph or a vastly reduced service would have been considered “a load of nonsense” as you put it, a year ago too… and look at where we are now…

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The idea that many stations across SE London (an area of population growth by the way) having only 2tph or a vastly reduced service would have been considered “a load of nonsense” as you put it, a year ago too… and look at where we are now…

Nah I wouldn't agree with that, the signs were there since covid with the financial pressure imposed on GTR and Southeastern by the DfT. The next step down would mean something catastrophic would be happening with the railways budget.

 

[LLivery]

The biggest shame about Lewisham is the way it was built. The re-development of the area is huge, with more planned - such as the shopping centre rebuild, and yet we've got suburban trains bypassing it

I think they’ll eventually do away with all Southern services on the Sydenham line and make it an Overground only service.

No metro station in SE should be 2tph at this point, there is zero justification for it.



Elephant & Castle should have been refurbished during the Thameslink upgrade in the 2010s, as the second core entry point station it pales in comparison to London Bridge.

If that happened I think you'd see real anger. Sydenham and Forest Hill, can't talk for the others, have well organised community groups that'll make their views known. I remember when Charing Cross services were axed back in the day. They carried a coffin on to the last service! And they were concerned about the proposal to divert Hayes trains to Victoria (personally I'd welcome an extra 2tph doing that, rather than diverting them).

Anyway, Southern services are too busy - the Overground couldn't handle peak services without Southern. Even if there was devolution, I'm pretty sure TfL actually wanted to increase London Bridge services to 6tph.

As for E&C I agree. It should've been done as part of Thameslink Programme, or even funded through local developments. They're going to have to do something

Yeah but Penge West has good links on the Overground and it’s not too far by bus from Sydenham or Crystal Palace

I live in Sydenham and I'm not happy. Axing East Croydon services has been a right pain in the backside. Norwood Junction with suitcases is the absolute worst after a long flight to Gatwick and the connection times at London Bridge can really screw you over.

 

[SE%Traveller]

The idea that many stations across SE London (an area of population growth by the way) having only 2tph or a vastly reduced service would have been considered “a load of nonsense” as you put it, a year ago too… and look at where we are now…

I Think 'pre pandemic' rather than a 'year ago' more realistic, time flys post apocalypse...

I don't think we're anywhere near 'the next level down', just squeezing levels to the minimum they can get away with.... the peaks have (i believe) been left round about where they were.

It depresses me as short sighted from both the rail enthusiast and environmentalist in me. I think the aspiration pre pandemic for 4tph was a good one, but now in SE Metro Land i believe only the Hayes, Sidcup, Woolwich & Grove Park lines have 4tph to the same london terminus where as before hand Bexhleyheath, Greenwich*, Bromley South and Catford Loop all did too.

*counting London Bridge as 'same london terminus' and discounting any service worse than 20/10 intervals (which DFT set as min in the abandoned refranchising of SE land)

I hope it get's to be reversed before too long, but i'm guessing we'll be at where we are for the next couple of years.

 

[Taunton]

It depresses me as short sighted from both the rail enthusiast and environmentalist in me. I think the aspiration pre pandemic for 4tph was a good one, but now in SE Metro Land i believe only the Hayes, Sidcup, Woolwich & Grove Park lines have 4tph to the same London terminus where as before hand Bexleyheath, Greenwich*, Bromley South and Catford Loop all did too.

Not what you would think. Although there are four trains per hour on the Sidcup line, and all from Charing Cross, they are timetabled at intervals of 3 and then 27 minutes apart. You have to wonder what idiot did this. The second train can run into signal checks if the first one has got at all delayed. We change at Lewisham from the DLR, which only the first of the flight stops at, and is infuriating to just miss this, and see a few minutes later the second one pass on the avoiding line.

I think someone has looked at a specification of "4tph" and given no thought to them being spread evenly.

 

[PGAT]

Not what you would think. Although there are four trains per hour on the Sidcup line, and all from Charing Cross, they are timetabled at intervals of 3 and then 27 minutes apart. You have to wonder what idiot did this. The second train can run into signal checks if the first one has got at all delayed. We change at Lewisham from the DLR, which only the first of the flight stops at, and is infuriating to just miss this, and see a few minutes later the second one pass on the avoiding line.

I think someone has looked at a specification of "4tph" and given no thought to them being spread evenly.

It looks like 6/24 intervals from Charing Cross, but I do agree that the spacing is atrocious

 

[Taunton]

It looks like 6/24 intervals from Charing Cross, but I do agree that the spacing is atrocious

Yes, but we get it down the line at Lee.

 

[londonteacher]

The EL is only useful if you’re in Abbey Wood or Woolwich, Plumstead is in between both stops and still relies heavily on SE and there is no EL west of Woolwich, not to mention the Bexleyheath line customers abandoning SE, they’re too far away to get any real EL benefits.

What a load of rubbish!

Take Plumstead as an example. I lived on Griffin Road right next to the station from 2013 - 2022. It’s a 10 minute walk or a 2/3 minute bus journey from Plumstead High Street to Woolwich Elizabeth Line service and 10/15 minutes bus to Abbey Wood. Stations such as Belvedere and Erith have a quick bus service to Abbey Wood via the 229 or 180 bus service. From other stations from Slade Green onwards yes SE would be relied on.

 

[Samzino]

Quite a lot of Charlton, Welling, Eltham and Bexleyheath residents to name a few make the trip to either Woolwich or Abbey Wood Lizzy Line stations aswell as those Kent side. It offers mostly even with delays more reliable and incases faster service to London and the West than SE especially with the Cuts. The bus links from those areas to the stations aren't bad either. 301 and 96 cover quite a bit of that aswell as the 180 from north Greenwich.

 

[NorthKent1989]

What a load of rubbish!

Take Plumstead as an example. I lived on Griffin Road right next to the station from 2013 - 2022. It’s a 10 minute walk or a 2/3 minute bus journey from Plumstead High Street to Woolwich Elizabeth Line service and 10/15 minutes bus to Abbey Wood. Stations such as Belvedere and Erith have a quick bus service to Abbey Wood via the 229 or 180 bus service. From other stations from Slade Green onwards yes SE would be relied on.

Okay but what if you don’t require the EL? That was my point, East of Abbey Wood is okay, but west of Woolwich and the Bexleyheath line doesn’t have the EL to rely on, so it’s not as you so eloquently put it “a load of rubbish”

I shall however give you the Plumstead point, but your last paragraph regarding Slade Green makes zero sense as that station, Erith and Belvedere can change at Abbey Wood…

No need to be rude in your first line.

I Think 'pre pandemic' rather than a 'year ago' more realistic, time flys post apocalypse...

I don't think we're anywhere near 'the next level down', just squeezing levels to the minimum they can get away with.... the peaks have (i believe) been left round about where they were.

It depresses me as short sighted from both the rail enthusiast and environmentalist in me. I think the aspiration pre pandemic for 4tph was a good one, but now in SE Metro Land i believe only the Hayes, Sidcup, Woolwich & Grove Park lines have 4tph to the same london terminus where as before hand Bexhleyheath, Greenwich*, Bromley South and Catford Loop all did too.

*counting London Bridge as 'same london terminus' and discounting any service worse than 20/10 intervals (which DFT set as min in the abandoned refranchising of SE land)

I hope it get's to be reversed before too long, but i'm guessing we'll be at where we are for the next couple of years.

2020 to early 2022 is one giant lump.

It is indeed very short sighted, as I mentioned the area from Deptford & Lewisham down to Gravesend is an area of population growth, loads of new houses and flats.

Woolwich line between Charlton to Slade Green still has 6tph (2tph CST via Greenwich, 2 tph CST via Lewisham, 2tph Thameslink to Luton) but it’s 4tph on a Sunday and it’s 4tph at Belvedere and Erith still (2tph on a Sunday) and uneven gaps along the Greenwich line, breaking it down this way makes the cuts all the more insane.

I think we’re indeed a long way off before anything improves for the SE metro network.

The biggest shame about Lewisham is the way it was built. The re-development of the area is huge, with more planned - such as the shopping centre rebuild, and yet we've got suburban trains bypassing it



If that happened I think you'd see real anger. Sydenham and Forest Hill, can't talk for the others, have well organised community groups that'll make their views known. I remember when Charing Cross services were axed back in the day. They carried a coffin on to the last service! And they were concerned about the proposal to divert Hayes trains to Victoria (personally I'd welcome an extra 2tph doing that, rather than diverting them).

Anyway, Southern services are too busy - the Overground couldn't handle peak services without Southern. Even if there was devolution, I'm pretty sure TfL actually wanted to increase London Bridge services to 6tph.

As for E&C I agree. It should've been done as part of Thameslink Programme, or even funded through local developments. They're going to have to do something



I live in Sydenham and I'm not happy. Axing East Croydon services has been a right pain in the backside. Norwood Junction with suitcases is the absolute worst after a long flight to Gatwick and the connection times at London Bridge can really screw you over.

Yes the anger at the loss of CHX trains from the Sydenham line was known, I supported the line keeping CHX, unfortunately the way the tracks into London Bridge are now post Thameslink means there can never be such services again.

I do sympathise with Sydenham line users, 2tph to London Bridge, no direct link to East Croydon.

The Hayes to Victoria service was an odd proposal since it basically parallels the Penge East and Catford lines, Clock House > Kent House, New Beckenham > Beckenham Jnc, Lower Sydenham > Penge East, Catford Bridge > Catford then a change at Denmark Hill, Ladywell > Crofton Park then a change at Denmark Hill.

I know the Victoria to Lewisham line is set to go 4tph in the near future but I think the service to Hayes has bend dropped.

E&C station has to be in line for redevelopment, shiny new towers being built, it’s a prime station too being on the Thameslink.

 

[Horizon22]

In regards to Ealing, can you just see planners suggesting cutting either the Jubilee or Central line from Stratford to Bond Street just because of the Elizabeth line also serves there?

That has genuinely been mooted, particularly for the Central line from Ealing Broadway branch and sending more trains Ruislip way.

Yeah but Penge West has good links on the Overground and it’s not too far by bus from Sydenham or Crystal Palace

Totally different part of London compared to Victoria though.

2tph for the Bromley South line is cut from what was a very long-standing 4tph all the way to Orpington (2 cut back to Bromley South post-Thameslink 2018).

As for Lewisham, it needs something, but its more about what that is. It's now very hemmed in by all the developments, and the location of the DLR station must complicate matters too. The previous entrances would be a fair evader's wet dream not that revenue protection is something that has ever been high on Southeastern's priority list.

The "everywhere to everywhere" used to put massive strain on Lewisham Junction and it almost became a meme when "Due to a fault with the signalling system at Lewisham..." was paged out on twitter on the CIS. I am with some that also believe London Bridge really isn't as bad as people make it out to be to change at; it's a big station so naturally it will take a little bit of time to navigate but at concourse level all escalators to platforms are very close to each other.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The "everywhere to everywhere" used to put massive strain on Lewisham Junction and it almost became a meme when "Due to a fault with the signalling system at Lewisham..." was paged out on twitter on the CIS. I am with some that also believe London Bridge really isn't as bad as people make it out to be to change at; it's a big station so naturally it will take a little bit of time to navigate but at concourse level all escalators to platforms are very close to each other.

But now that strain is on London Bridge, where you have hordes of people decamping off a Cannon Street train to hurriedly make their way over to a Charing Cross train.

The past six months I’ve never been more delayed by trains than pre December, Lewisham Junction at worse was a few minutes wait but the time was more than made up by then in stop run to London Bridge.

 

[Horizon22]

Okay but what if you don’t require the EL? That was my point, East of Abbey Wood is okay, but west of Woolwich and the Bexleyheath line doesn’t have the EL to rely on, so it’s not as you so eloquently put it “a load of rubbish”

I shall however give you the Plumstead point, but your last paragraph regarding Slade Green makes zero sense as that station, Erith and Belvedere can change at Abbey Wood…

No need to be rude in your first line.

It is currently also an unhelpfully scheduled 4tph which are poorly spaced out. If they were actually at near 15 minute intervals it would work and considering Thameslink's more complex integrated timetable, it would probably be Southeastern's service more like to be recast/

2020 to early 2022 is one giant lump.

It is indeed very short sighted, as I mentioned the area from Deptford & Lewisham down to Gravesend is an area of population growth, loads of new houses and flats.

Woolwich line between Charlton to Slade Green still has 6tph (2tph CST via Greenwich, 2 tph CST via Lewisham, 2tph Thameslink to Luton) but it’s 4tph on a Sunday and it’s 4tph at Belvedere and Erith still (2tph on a Sunday) and uneven gaps along the Greenwich line, breaking it down this way makes the cuts all the more insane.

I think we’re indeed a long way off before anything improves for the SE metro network.

Probably. Almost like a managed decline.

Yes the anger at the loss of CHX trains from the Sydenham line was known, I supported the line keeping CHX, unfortunately the way the tracks into London Bridge are now post Thameslink means there can never be such services again.

I do sympathise with Sydenham line users, 2tph to London Bridge, no direct link to East Croydon.

The Hayes to Victoria service was an odd proposal since it basically parallels the Penge East and Catford lines, Clock House > Kent House, New Beckenham > Beckenham Jnc, Lower Sydenham > Penge East, Catford Bridge > Catford then a change at Denmark Hill, Ladywell > Crofton Park then a change at Denmark Hill.

I know the Victoria to Lewisham line is set to go 4tph in the near future but I think the service to Hayes has bend dropped.

E&C station has to be in line for redevelopment, shiny new towers being built, it’s a prime station too being on the Thameslink.

Sydenham gets lots of trains (10tph), but only 2tph to London Bridge of course. And the lack of East Croydon being the huge interchange it is, is frustrating requiring what should be unnecessary trains down the line. Hayes to Victoria is indeed odd, because in this part of Bromley / Beckenham / Lewisham area, people can genuinely walk to the station for the location they need.

A lot of this appears to be maximising capacity for trains but without actually thinking if any of that is useful for passengers.

But now that strain is on London Bridge, where you have hordes of people decamping off a Cannon Street train to hurriedly make their way over to a Charing Cross train.

The past six months I’ve never been more delayed by trains than pre December, Lewisham Junction at worse was a few minutes wait but the time was more than made up by then in stop run to London Bridge.

And London Bridge is much, much better suited to that strain than Lewisham or indeed the unreliability of having trains to all destinations. You can't really compare now to pre-December; you'd have to compare it to December 2019 timetable or - considering that didn't get much of a run in - the May '19 timetable. That's a long way back.

 

[ComUtoR]

As for Lewisham, it needs something...

The "Haykerloo" has also been mooted.

 

[Horizon22]

The "Haykerloo" has also been mooted.

I more meant the station. Ideally it would be demolished, lines skewed, and then a six platform station (including the main lines - possibly demolish New Cross) and rationalise around it. But it would be so disruptive and expensive it seems highly unlikely (and is speculative anyway!)

I think the Bakerloo line to Hayes would make the line even slower than it already is!

 

[NorthKent1989]

And London Bridge is much, much better suited to that strain than Lewisham or indeed the unreliability of having trains to all destinations. You can't really compare now to pre-December; you'd have to compare it to December 2019 timetable or - considering that didn't get much of a run in - the May '19 timetable. That's a long way back

Not really, the station is often overcrowded, three times this year it’s been to dangerous levels.

 

[Taunton]

The "everywhere to everywhere" used to put massive strain on Lewisham Junction and it almost became a meme when "Due to a fault with the signalling system at Lewisham..." was paged out on twitter on the CIS.

It's difficult to believe this stuff about how the Lewisham junctions were treated as a key critical asset when, to look at them long term, they were allowed to become some of the worst weed-strewn tracks on the whole of the network, right across the formation, looking like some contender for a model of the Amazon Jungle in the Eden Project. There were multiple comments about this apparent complete lack of care and attention on various posts even here. No wonder there were issues when the mechanical parts and the drainage was being allowed to become choked by the vegetation like this was the general opinion.

 

[stuu]

What's funny is with all the service reductions, SE still runs 4 car Dartford to London Victoria trains ffs. Still always a nightmare to board at Lewisham. You'd have thought they'd have a few more rolling stock spare for an 8 or 10 set.

Totally off topic but Elephant and castle station although not as much used is also years over due for improvement. It looks like something from the steam age now compared to all the towers and soon more apartments.

It's fairly astonishing that with all the new towers being built and the shopping centre redeveloped that nothing has been demanded to fix the station and E&C. It's shockingly bad

 

[Samzino]

It's fairly astonishing that with all the new towers being built and the shopping centre redeveloped that nothing has been demanded to fix the station and E&C. It's shockingly bad

Honestly gave up hope with it. Considering the state Blackfriars was before it finally got upgraded, I'd have thought E&C would have seen its own upgrade in tandem with that upgrade. It sticks out like a sore thumb now not just in the area but as well on the line considering the next 3 stations Up the line towards the City(Blackfriars, City Thameslink and St Pancras) all look in date now.

Leaves for me little hope for Lewisham. What is funny is that Deptford got an upgrade before Lewisham and E&C which is astonishing.

 

[MPW]

Could there be room made to rationalise the tracks layout as part of the shopping centre and carpet right development, especially if bakerloo happens? Further tracks/platforms could be added or the angle of tracks coming together could be softened.

Yes, I'm literally using crayon but only to illustrate the point. I don't think this too crazy. Molesworth street is bigger than it needs to be for the traffic it handles and station road could be moved or have a viaduct over it.

Could there be room made to rationalise the tracks layout as part of the shopping centre and carpet right development, especially if bakerloo happens? Further tracks/platforms could be added or the angle of tracks coming together could be softened.

Yes, I'm literally using crayon but only to illustrate the point. I don't think this too crazy. Molesworth street is bigger than it needs to be for the traffic it handles and station road could be moved or have a viaduct over a

Maybe even a flying junction station with stacked platforms, if that solves anything. I don't really know how this would work but have not seen any discussion which consider all this land soon to be developed.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Could there be room made to rationalise the tracks layout as part of the shopping centre and carpet right development, especially if bakerloo happens? Further tracks/platforms could be added or the angle of tracks coming together could be softened.

Yes, I'm literally using crayon but only to illustrate the point. I don't think this too crazy. Molesworth street is bigger than it needs to be for the traffic it handles and station road could be moved or have a viaduct over it.


Maybe even a flying junction station with stacked platforms, if that solves anything. I don't really know how this would work but have not seen any discussion which consider all this land soon to be developed.

The Lewisham redevelopment has really screwed over the railway around there, they’ve basically boxed the area in.

But we’re basically stuck with this layout now until if they decide to demolish the towers around the station in a few decades, unlikely of course.

As it stands, SE have made their timetable so unattractive that people are abandoning the railway in their droves due to how awkward they’ve made travelling on its services now, so maybe Lewisham won’t be as used as much with fewer trains, imagine trying to save money by mucking up services only to lose more money, no wonder ridership of the DLR & EL have skyrocketed since December.

 

[Recessio]

The Lewisham redevelopment has really screwed over the railway around there, they’ve basically boxed the area in.

But we’re basically stuck with this layout now until if they decide to demolish the towers around the station in a few decades, unlikely of course.

As it stands, SE have made their timetable so unattractive that people are abandoning the railway in their droves due to how awkward they’ve made travelling on its services now, so maybe Lewisham won’t be as used as much with fewer trains, imagine trying to save money by mucking up services only to lose more money, no wonder ridership of the DLR & EL have skyrocketed since December.

How long have the towers been there? My memory is that rejigging the track layout through Lewisham has been floated for a few years (I think TfL mentioned it in their 2016 Metroisation document). I'm amazed it wasn't considered protected land when the planning permission for the towers was being considered.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm amazed it wasn't considered protected land when the planning permission for the towers was being considered.

Who would have protected the land and how?

 

[Recessio]

Who would have protected the land and how?

I was thinking along the lines of how land along rail routes can be safeguarded against future developments. One example I can think of is the land that will be needed for Crossrail 2 is currently protected. https://crossrail2.co.uk/discover/safeguarding/

If the land is essential for a redesign of the track layout at Lewisham, as was stated up thread, then I was wondering why it wasn't safeguarded against development in this way. Otherwise, as the planning permission went ahead and the towers were built, was the land really that essential?

 

[NorthKent1989]

How long have the towers been there? My memory is that rejigging the track layout through Lewisham has been floated for a few years (I think TfL mentioned it in their 2016 Metroisation document). I'm amazed it wasn't considered protected land when the planning permission for the towers was being considered.

The Towers have been there for a few years maybe 6 to 8 years, the whole area was changed over in the early 2010s iirc

 

[MPW]

I was thinking more about the remaining sites (shopping centre and carpet right, where bakerloo land is) and roads next to the southern station approach (eg Molesworth st). Based on responses it seems these are not in the right place to help, is that right? Maybe adding more tracks or platforms here does nothing to help with the tangle of tracks, or is it just not useful enough of space?

 

[Bald Rick]

I was thinking along the lines of how land along rail routes can be safeguarded against future developments. One example I can think of is the land that will be needed for Crossrail 2 is currently protected. https://crossrail2.co.uk/discover/safeguarding/

If the land is essential for a redesign of the track layout at Lewisham, as was stated up thread, then I was wondering why it wasn't safeguarded against development in this way. Otherwise, as the planning permission went ahead and the towers were built, was the land really that essential?

Safeguarding land in that way is done by central Government based on initial level of early design development of a project with an objective and some funding. To my knowledge there has never been a project for doing anything with the tracks at Lewisham. It is reasonable to assume it hasn’t been safeguarded because no organisation has investigated any proposal there and therefore wouldn’t know what to safeguard.

 

[hkstudent]

Safeguarding land in that way is done by central Government based on initial level of early design development of a project with an objective and some funding. To my knowledge there has never been a project for doing anything with the tracks at Lewisham. It is reasonable to assume it hasn’t been safeguarded because no organisation has investigated any proposal there and therefore wouldn’t know what to safeguard.

I think back in the time of 2000s, the government likely feel that the DLR would have already eased the capacity issue of Lewisham and not thinking of any need to upgrade Lewisham Station.

It’s only until Thameslink programme that the second track going down Tanners Hill junction have enabled a dedicated track usage to Charing Cross service, with full segregation of Cannon Street and Charing Cross from Tanners Hill junction in mind, the usage of the diamond junction. Think that wasn’t intended but that’s the end result.

Obviously of course, noone would have imagined south London can have such a high density development. Even Canada Water built 15 years ago was just about half dense as the current Lewisham to be.

Of course, last thing would be, the delay of Bakerloo Line extension would cause overloading of the current SER service. I think DLR is already at the track capacity with the extension of Stratford service to Lewisham.

 

[ScotGG]

"Obviously of course, noone would have imagined south London can have such a high density development."

How far back are we looking? London's population was rising sharply since the mid to late '90s so at least 25 years now. It's had a backlog of needed homes compared to demand for 30 years too.

By the early 2000s - 20 years ago now - it was clear large-scale housebuilding was needed. Around stations was logical and part of govt policy at various levels for a long time. But plans never translated into actual action to help mitigate and provide in so many instances, so its a case of chasing what should have been done 20 years ago.

Next will be the Old Kent Road. It'll get so busy the Bakerloo extension will have to be built - when it'll cost more and be far more disruptive. That at least has some safeguarding though.