Licensing Act 2003 and Free Water on Trains: What Are the Rules?

[w2w]

Exemption of Vehicles: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/17/part/9/crossheading/exemptions-etc/enacted

Provision of Water (point 3): https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/860/schedule/made


I've been curious about the regulations regarding the provision of free water on trains in the UK, specifically in relation to the Licensing Act 2003. As many of you may know, this act outlines the rules for the sale and supply of alcohol, including the provision of portable water.

Now, here's where it gets a bit tricky. The Licensing Act 2003 has a provision that exempts moving vehicles from requiring a license for the sale of alcohol. However, I'm wondering if this exemption applies to all aspects of the act, or if it solely pertains to the requirement for a license and if trains are still obligated to provide free water as per the act's other provisions.

So, my question is: Are train providers in the UK required to provide free water, despite the exemption from a license under the Licensing Act 2003 for moving vehicles? Does anyone have any insights or information on how this legislation applies to trains or any other moving vehicles? Your input would be greatly appreciated!

The Licensing Act 2003 indeed plays a crucial role in regulating the sale of alcohol, including prohibiting the sale of alcohol to minors. If trains or other moving vehicles are exempt from the licensing requirement, it does raise questions about whether there might be gaps in regulation when it comes to preventing minors from accessing alcohol during their journeys.

 

[Watershed]

Paragraph 3 of the Schedule you link to is a mandatory condition of any premises licence that's issued. But as the exemption you cite states, alcohol provided onboard a train making a journey isn't licenseable, so no licence is needed and thus it's irrelevant what conditions would apply if one were issued.

So in conclusion, no, TOCs are not required to provide free water on trains, even if alcohol is served.

 

[snowball]

including the provision of portable water.

or perhaps potable?

 

[Egg Centric]

Exemption of Vehicles: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/17/part/9/crossheading/exemptions-etc/enacted

Provision of Water (point 3): https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/860/schedule/made


I've been curious about the regulations regarding the provision of free water on trains in the UK, specifically in relation to the Licensing Act 2003. As many of you may know, this act outlines the rules for the sale and supply of alcohol, including the provision of portable water.

Now, here's where it gets a bit tricky. The Licensing Act 2003 has a provision that exempts moving vehicles from requiring a license for the sale of alcohol. However, I'm wondering if this exemption applies to all aspects of the act, or if it solely pertains to the requirement for a license and if trains are still obligated to provide free water as per the act's other provisions.

So, my question is: Are train providers in the UK required to provide free water, despite the exemption from a license under the Licensing Act 2003 for moving vehicles? Does anyone have any insights or information on how this legislation applies to trains or any other moving vehicles? Your input would be greatly appreciated!

The Licensing Act 2003 indeed plays a crucial role in regulating the sale of alcohol, including prohibiting the sale of alcohol to minors. If trains or other moving vehicles are exempt from the licensing requirement, it does raise questions about whether there might be gaps in regulation when it comes to preventing minors from accessing alcohol during their journeys.

Your link doesn't exempt moving vehicles just certain types. Anyone know the rules for buses or coaches?

Anyway it's not illegal for minors to drink and I cannot see a TOC authorising the sale of booze to them no matter what the legal position is so at worst we're talking about an adult supplying them with some in which case I'm not particularly bothered tbh as I tend to trust peoples good sense

 

[AlterEgo]

Exemption of Vehicles: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/17/part/9/crossheading/exemptions-etc/enacted

Provision of Water (point 3): https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/860/schedule/made


I've been curious about the regulations regarding the provision of free water on trains in the UK, specifically in relation to the Licensing Act 2003. As many of you may know, this act outlines the rules for the sale and supply of alcohol, including the provision of portable water.

Now, here's where it gets a bit tricky. The Licensing Act 2003 has a provision that exempts moving vehicles from requiring a license for the sale of alcohol. However, I'm wondering if this exemption applies to all aspects of the act, or if it solely pertains to the requirement for a license and if trains are still obligated to provide free water as per the act's other provisions.

Trains are not covered by alcohol licences at all, and hence the legislation simply doesn't apply. @Watershed (ironic name for this thread!) has summarised the situation succinctly.

 

[87electric]

Trains are not covered by alcohol licences at all, and hence the legislation simply doesn't apply. @Watershed (ironic name for this thread!) has summarised the situation succinctly.

It annoys me when announcements on train PA systems claim to serve alcohol from their licensed bar.
I challenged the staff (in a light hearted fashion), while buying cider, to show me the licence they refer to.
I got a blank stare back.
Sherlock Holmes and the Case of the Unlicensed Bar on the Orient Express.

 

[Watershed]

Trains are not covered by alcohol licences at all, and hence the legislation simply doesn't apply. @Watershed (ironic name for this thread!) has summarised the situation succinctly.

Ha, that didn't occur to me

It annoys me when announcements on train PA systems claim to serve alcohol from their licensed bar.
I challenged the staff (in a light hearted fashion), while buying cider, to show me the licence they refer to.
I got a blank stare back.
Sherlock Holmes and the Case of the Unlicensed Bar on the Orient Express.

Quite - seems to be a common announcement on railtours too ("we have a fully licensed bar")! Arguably, it's fully licensed to the extent legally required - not at all

I do wonder whether heritage railways qualify for this exemption? It probably depends on whether you could actually get off anywhere intermediately.

 

[Western 52]

Years ago when I occasionally worked on a bar on a heritage railway train, I was told we could serve alcohol but only when the train was actually moving. I've no idea why though, or whether that's still the case.

 

[Iskra]

Why are trains exempt from licensing requirements? Seems a bit odd really

If I opened a mobile bar, would it be exempt?

 

[Llanigraham]

Why are trains exempt from licensing requirements? Seems a bit odd really

If I opened a mobile bar, would it be exempt?

Perhaps because a train moves from one licencing authority to another as it proceeds on its journey, otherwise it would have to apply in every authorities aress.
A train from say Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury could be in 4 or more authorities.

 

[hexagon789]

If I opened a mobile bar, would it be exempt?

Tom Scott demonstrated an 'unlicensed' hovercraft bar in one of his videos.

 

[Iskra]

Perhaps because a train moves from one licencing authority to another as it proceeds on its journey, otherwise it would have to apply in every authorities aress.
A train from say Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury could be in 4 or more authorities.

Yes, but they have no problem with that issue when it comes to Environmental Health food safety inspections, I believe they just use the authority where the head office is located and EH officers travel as needed to sites.

 

[dk1]

Why are trains exempt from licensing requirements? Seems a bit odd really

If I opened a mobile bar, would it be exempt?

It’s always been that way. When I was young and we went on holiday licensing laws meant pubs closed between 2.30 & 5pm. We would catch the 14:42 Norwich-Liverpool St so they & those with us could continue drinking. Pubs were then open by the time we got to London.

 

[Krokodil]

Years ago when I occasionally worked on a bar on a heritage railway train, I was told we could serve alcohol but only when the train was actually moving. I've no idea why though, or whether that's still the case.

As far as I'm aware, just having a locomotive attached (on a multiple unit the motive power is already there) is enough.

 

[Iskra]

It’s always been that way. When I was young and we went on holiday licensing laws meant pubs closed between 2.30 & 5pm. We would catch the 14:42 Norwich-Liverpool St so they & those with us could continue drinking. Pubs were then open by the time we got to London.

Thanks for the anecdote and I like that work-around

 

[dk1]

Thanks for the anecdote and I like that work-around

Impressive isn’t it? I think lots of people did that at the time.

 

[DelW]

The exemption allowing sales of alcohol on board trains was widely (and gratefully) known in the days when much of north Wales was "dry" on Sundays. I think that it contributed substantially to the Ffestiniog Railway's income in early preservation days.

 

[Rescars]

Yes, but they have no problem with that issue when it comes to Environmental Health food safety inspections, I believe they just use the authority where the head office is located and EH officers travel as needed to sites.

There was a time when on-train catering was subject to the varying requirements of each environmental health authority as it passed through each of their geographical areas. Consequently the standards required at one end of a journey might differ from those demanded at the other end and be different again at intermediate points along the way. This became even more challenging if the stock in question had a diagram working over several routes in succession. I assume Iskra is right and common sense prevails nowadays.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The exemption allowing sales of alcohol on board trains was widely (and gratefully) known in the days when much of north Wales was "dry" on Sundays. I think that it contributed substantially to the Ffestiniog Railway's income in early preservation days.

And the same was true for the Scottish Paddle Steamers - Sunday being the Sabbath and so dry. They found a big market for cruises on the Clyde on Sundays!

Why are trains exempt from licensing requirements? Seems a bit odd really

If I opened a mobile bar, would it be exempt?

Boats are also exempt.

 

[Taunton]

Perhaps because a train moves from one licencing authority to another as it proceeds on its journey, otherwise it would have to apply in every authorities aress.

This is how it is in the USA, certainly for whether alcohol is served. Given that in some USA Counties the sale is banned, this gives the unusual approach in the lounge car as the train rolls along of the steward suddenly announcing "Lewis County, bar's closed", and no more alcohol is served, although if it's now in front of you, that's OK. 20 minutes later it's "Clark County, bar's open", and on you go. Among other things it needs a steward who knows the line well.

Collecting fees for county alcohol licences is something that, in the USA way, has led to innumerable court cases over time between county and railway, though I think the railway has always won. In recent years some places have even tried to collect these fees from airlines overflying them!

 

[Magicake]

It’s always been that way. When I was young and we went on holiday licensing laws meant pubs closed between 2.30 & 5pm. We would catch the 14:42 Norwich-Liverpool St so they & those with us could continue drinking. Pubs were then open by the time we got to London.

I've heard a similar story of the Humber Ferry being particularly popular during the afternoon with locals who rode backwards and forwards drinking until the pubs reopened

 

[dk1]

I've heard a similar story of the Humber Ferry being particularly popular during the afternoon with locals who rode backwards and forwards drinking until the pubs reopened

Sounds so perfectly 1970s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tom Scott demonstrated an 'unlicensed' hovercraft bar in one of his videos.

"Fully licenced bar" just seems to be a sort of "euphemism" for one that sells all kinds of alcoholic beverage.

 

[hexagon789]

"Fully licenced bar" just seems to be a sort of "euphemism" for one that sells all kinds of alcoholic beverage.

Well, quite

 

[Iskra]

"Fully licenced bar" just seems to be a sort of "euphemism" for one that sells all kinds of alcoholic beverage.

‘Unlicensed bar,’ automatically sounds a bit dodgy even if it’s perfectly legal and I can imagine a few punters questioning it if it was announced as such

 

[Bletchleyite]

‘Unlicensed bar,’ automatically sounds a bit dodgy even if it’s perfectly legal and I can imagine a few punters questioning it if it was announced as such

I think it more refers to having both an on and off licence and a cocktail licence.

 

[Phil from Mon]

And the same was true for the Scottish Paddle Steamers - Sunday being the Sabbath and so dry. They found a big market for cruises on the Clyde on Sundays!



Boats are also exempt.

The same is true to this day for airlines, when the drinks service while cease while overflying countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

 

[Darandio]

It annoys me when announcements on train PA systems claim to serve alcohol from their licensed bar.

But why? Strikes me as an odd thing to get annoyed about.

 

[hux385]

Are passengers allowed to take their alcohol off the train to consume? Also, since alcohol is banned on trains in Scotland, what happens for cross-border services? A 10-second countdown at Berwick-upon-Tweed over the tannoy to get people to drink up before they head north?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are passengers allowed to take their alcohol off the train to consume?

Never heard anything to say you couldn't, other than that it's banned at some stations.

Also, since alcohol is banned on trains in Scotland, what happens for cross-border services? A 10-second countdown at Berwick-upon-Tweed over the tannoy to get people to drink up before they head north?!

It is only banned on ScotRail services.