Linguistic question - Welsh announcements

[U-Bahnfreund]

I was wondering about the grammar of the Welsh language announcements found at Arriva Trains Wales' stations.

As far as I understood from previous threads on this forum, the phrase "calling at (intermediate stations) and (destination)" translates in Welsh to "yn galw ym (intermediate stations) a/ac (destination)". I've seen that someone mutated the name of the stations, so that Penarth became Benarth. So, is it right to conclude that one has to apply the soft mutation (treiglad meddal) after "yn galw ym"? And if yes, does this apply to all the stations after it (e.g. "yn galw ym Gaerdydd Heol-y-Frenhines, Landaf a Dreherbert") or only to the first station named? Does the mutation also have to be done for English station names (e.g. does Grangetown have to be Rangetown)?

Diolch for anyone answering my questions. Please note that I don't speak Welsh (I wish I could), I just read a bit about the structure of the language.

And please, everyone, don't make this thread a debate about whether there should Welsh announcements or not. Thanks.

 

[kdoganorak]

Having spent a few hours at Cardiff Central over years i have only noticed any mutation of the place names when the final destination is named at the end of the list of calling points e.g. 'Heol Dingle a Benarth'. Grangetown is always grangetown. Final destinations without welsh names are rare but I think Nottingham is just Nottingham.

On my first couple of visits when FGW were at their peak unreliability i was always tricked by the welsh annoucement that the train was Dileu into thinking the train was just dekayed, not cancelled

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I was wondering about the grammar of the Welsh language announcements found at Arriva Trains Wales' stations.

As far as I understood from previous threads on this forum, the phrase "calling at (intermediate stations) and (destination)" translates in Welsh to "yn galw ym (intermediate stations) a/ac (destination)". I've seen that someone mutated the name of the stations, so that Penarth became Benarth. So, is it right to conclude that one has to apply the soft mutation (treiglad meddal) after "yn galw ym"? And if yes, does this apply to all the stations after it (e.g. "yn galw ym Gaerdydd Heol-y-Frenhines, Landaf a Dreherbert") or only to the first station named? Does the mutation also have to be done for English station names (e.g. does Grangetown have to be Rangetown)?

Diolch for anyone answering my questions. Please note that I don't speak Welsh (I wish I could), I just read a bit about the structure of the language.

And please, everyone, don't make this thread a debate about whether there should Welsh announcements or not. Thanks.

Welsh language is a very simple language to spell, once you learn the alphabet. We don't have silent letters. Everything is spelt as it is said.....but...there are may different ways of saying the same thing .

For example there are approx six way for saying yes or no depending on the question.

Back to place names.

Colwyn bay - Bae Colwyn can become Fae Colwyn.

Flint - becomes Y (the) Fflint

if you use a sentence using "in" Conwy in Welsh it becomes yng Nhgonwy.

A fluent Welsh speaker even I still get the grammatically correct one wrong sometimes. But people still understand what you mean and often use almost Welsh slang for lots of places.

 

[PHILIPE]

"Ym" is not actually a mutation but is used instead of "yn" (in) when the location starts with the letter "M", i.e. "ym Machynlleth".
Another thing is to Cardiff would be "i Gaerdydd", using "g" instead of "C" which is known as a soft mutation. If the location is an English name and has no Welsh equivalent, the mutation won't apply, i.e. "i Coryton".

 

[Hwnt52]

Mutations in Welsh are an integral part of the language and can be confusing for learners A mutation is a change of the initial consonant of a word according to the context. In place names it usually occurs after a preposition but what can make things confusing is that different prepositions cause different mutations. The three words ‘yn’ = in, ‘a’ = and, ‘i’ = to, all cause different mutations, so for example ‘to Pontypridd’ would be ‘i Bontypridd’, ‘and Pontypridd’ would be ‘a Phontypridd’ and ‘in Pontypridd’ would be ‘ym Mhontypridd’ (here ‘yn’ also changes to ‘ym’). The consonants affected are B, C, D, G, LL, M, P, RH, T.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Thank you very much for all your explanations.

So, if I gather everything together, an announcement would be like this: „the train now approaching is the [blah] service i <name with soft mutation>, yn galw yn/ym <nasal mutation>, <no mutation> a <aspirate mutation>.“ (all of this only affecting Welsh names)

So for example, this would be the way to say it:
[...] i Bontypridd, yn galw yn Nghaerdydd Heol-y-Frenhines, Cathays, Llandaf, Radur, Trefforest a Phontypridd. [...]

Am I correct?

 

[Hwnt52]

Thank you very much for all your explanations.

So, if I gather everything together, an announcement would be like this: „the train now approaching is the [blah] service i <name with soft mutation>, yn galw yn/ym <nasal mutation>, <no mutation> a <aspirate mutation>.“ (all of this only affecting Welsh names)

So for example, this would be the way to say it:
[...] i Bontypridd, yn galw yn Nghaerdydd Heol-y-Frenhines, Cathays, Llandaf, Radyr, Trefforest a Phontypridd. [...]

Am I correct?

7/10 here. Should be 'yng Nghaerdydd Heol y Frenhines'.
'yng' instead of 'yn' and no hyphens.
Radur not Radyr is the correct Welsh spelling.

 

[krus_aragon]

Having applied Hwnt52's corrections, you're spot on. Well done.

It may be useful to know that trains 'from X' ('o X') would see a soft mutation, just like 'to X'. (e.g "Y trên nesaf fydd y gwasanaeth o Gasnewydd.")

I'd also clarify that the list of consonants Hwnt52 gave applies to the soft mutation, but not all apply to the nasal and aspirate mutations. The lists are as follows:

Soft: (P, T, C,) (B, D, G,) (M, Ll, Rh)
Nasal: (P, T, C,) (B, D, G)
Aspirate: (P, T, C)
Note the progressive removal of letters from each list.

If you haven't already found it, Wikipedia's page on Welsh mutation may be helpful to you.


As Y Ddraig Coch notes, some placenames in Wales are known as "The X", such as Y Fflint, Y Trallwng, Y Barri. The definite article "y" is replaced with "yr" when the following word starts with a vowel, but becomes " 'r " when it is following a vowel. The Welsh words for "to", "from", as well as "and" are nothing but vowels (i/o/a), so you get "trên o'r Barri", "trên i'r Drenewydd, yn galw yn Y Rhyl a'r Trallwng" for example.

And finally, while mutations do not strictly apply to non-Welsh placenames, some fluent speakers do apply mutations to them. Take Birmingham as an example. The Pop group Tebot Piws' song D'yn Ni Ddim Mynd I Birmingham doesn't mutate the name, whereas the BBC's political correspondent Vaughan Roderick does mutate the name, while referencing the title of the previous song!

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

7/10 here. Should be 'yng Nghaerdydd Heol y Frenhines'.
'yng' instead of 'yn' and no hyphens.
Radur not Radyr is the correct Welsh spelling.

Thanks! So, when yn is followed by an m, it turns to ym, and if followed by ng it becomes yng. Any other exceptions?

I must have confused Radur and Radyr there, sorry. And regarding the hyphens, Arriva uses hyphens on its network map, but thanks for pointing out that this is incorrect.

Having applied Hwnt52's corrections, you're spot on. Well done.

Thanks!

It may be useful to know that trains 'from X' ('o X') would see a soft mutation, just like 'to X'. (e.g "Y trên nesaf fydd y gwasanaeth o Gasnewydd.")

I'd also clarify that the list of consonants Hwnt52 gave applies to the soft mutation, but not all apply to the nasal and aspirate mutations. The lists are as follows:

Soft: (P, T, C,) (B, D, G,) (M, Ll, Rh)
Nasal: (P, T, C,) (B, D, G)
Aspirate: (P, T, C)
Note the progressive removal of letters from each list.

If you haven't already found it, Wikipedia's page on Welsh mutation may be helpful to you.

I also found that Wikipedia page, but thanks for linking to it.

As Y Ddraig Coch notes, some placenames in Wales are known as "The X", such as Y Fflint, Y Trallwng, Y Barri. The definite article "y" is replaced with "yr" when the following word starts with a vowel, but becomes " 'r " when it is following a vowel. The Welsh words for "to", "from", as well as "and" are nothing but vowels (i/o/a), so you get "trên o'r Barri", "trên i'r Drenewydd, yn galw yn Y Rhyl a'r Trallwng" for example.

I didn’t know that, thanks for explaining.

And finally, while mutations do not strictly apply to non-Welsh placenames, some fluent speakers do apply mutations to them. Take Birmingham as an example. The Pop group Tebot Piws' song D'yn Ni Ddim Mynd I Birmingham doesn't mutate the name, whereas the BBC's political correspondent Vaughan Roderick does mutate the name, while referencing the title of the previous song!

That’s interesting. But I think I won’t mutate non-Welsh placenames, that seems to be what’s usually is done.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Having applied Hwnt52's corrections, you're spot on. Well done.

It may be useful to know that trains 'from X' ('o X') would see a soft mutation, just like 'to X'. (e.g "Y trên nesaf fydd y gwasanaeth o Gasnewydd.")

I'd also clarify that the list of consonants Hwnt52 gave applies to the soft mutation, but not all apply to the nasal and aspirate mutations. The lists are as follows:

Soft: (P, T, C,) (B, D, G,) (M, Ll, Rh)
Nasal: (P, T, C,) (B, D, G)
Aspirate: (P, T, C)
Note the progressive removal of letters from each list.

If you haven't already found it, Wikipedia's page on Welsh mutation may be helpful to you.


As Y Ddraig Coch notes, some placenames in Wales are known as "The X", such as Y Fflint, Y Trallwng, Y Barri. The definite article "y" is replaced with "yr" when the following word starts with a vowel, but becomes " 'r " when it is following a vowel. The Welsh words for "to", "from", as well as "and" are nothing but vowels (i/o/a), so you get "trên o'r Barri", "trên i'r Drenewydd, yn galw yn Y Rhyl a'r Trallwng" for example.

And finally, while mutations do not strictly apply to non-Welsh placenames, some fluent speakers do apply mutations to them. Take Birmingham as an example. The Pop group Tebot Piws' song D'yn Ni Ddim Mynd I Birmingham doesn't mutate the name, whereas the BBC's political correspondent Vaughan Roderick does mutate the name, while referencing the title of the previous song!

Brilliant - I recall having the PTG / etc mutations knocked into me when I did the Welsh O level in 1974 ...coming from West Wales , the actual Welsh was totally "slangified" , with oral Welsh bearing little resemblance to "proper" Welsh. Add an "o" to a verb and it is Welsh , ....anyway - never formally studied after the age of 12 , but was persuaded to sit the O Level exam , did about 2 hours revision and got grade 1. Standards must have been low that year. I can generally understand Welsh at reading level , but struggle to speak it well .... love the slang terms "skerbwd" for a chicken carcass to put in the bin . "witch-what" for someone who could not make up their mind etc.....

 

[ChiefPlanner]

"Ble it in dod o ...."Or Waun" .....up North that would mean Chirk ,around Ammanford it would be Gwaun Cae Gurwen .....knwn as "Y Waun" for brevity.

Sorry to bore you "maen ddrwg genyf I ...." etc

 

[rf_ioliver]

So for example, this would be the way to say it:
[...] i Bontypridd, yn galw yn Nghaerdydd Heol-y-Frenhines, Cathays, Llandaf, Radyr, Trefforest a Phontypridd. [...]

Am I correct?

Yes, apart from yn -> yng before Ng. You might start a grammatical war over whether the nasal mutation should be applied later in the sentence, ie: Trefforest -> Nhrefforest (the other's wouldn't change and the aspirate mutation after a/ac takes precidence at the end) I had one teacher would was religious about some aspects of the grammar - on the other hand he was from a different valley so...

Regarding non-Welsh placenames, /generally/ no mutation is applied *but* some speakers will apply a mutation when it sounds natural. For example, Mae'r tren yn galw ym Mirmingham sounds weird, but ym "Mreiton" (Brighton) would/could be heard, but certainly not in written Welsh.

There are a few very detailed books on the subject, I recommend Ball and Muller's Mutation in Welsh as a good evening's read.

Anyway, quite amazing to see a discussion of a fascinating part of the Welsh Language's grammar being discussed on a rail forum

As a completely unrelated question, are Llundain and Manceinion used in announcements? I'm pretty sure I've never heard Bryste for Bristol and it's been a while since trains have run to Yr Efrog, Caeredin and Glascoed from Cardiff...

t.

Ian

 

[leightonbd]

As a completely unrelated question, are Llundain and Manceinion used in announcements? I'm pretty sure I've never heard Bryste for Bristol and it's been a while since trains have run to Yr Efrog, Caeredin and Glascoed from Cardiff...

t.

Ian

Pretty sure I have heard both of those while on the platform at Abertawe before changing at Penybont on the way to get the plane to Caeredin ...

 

[Harbouring]

If I remember correctly one of the stations on the great western Portsmouth service gets announced in Welsh, I think it might be Salisbury. And iirc Portsmouth and Southsea is Portsmouth Y Southsea and Portsmouth Harbour is Harbwr Portsmouth

 

[headshot119]

Yes, apart from yn -> yng before Ng. You might start a grammatical war over whether the nasal mutation should be applied later in the sentence, ie: Trefforest -> Nhrefforest (the other's wouldn't change and the aspirate mutation after a/ac takes precidence at the end) I had one teacher would was religious about some aspects of the grammar - on the other hand he was from a different valley so...

Regarding non-Welsh placenames, /generally/ no mutation is applied *but* some speakers will apply a mutation when it sounds natural. For example, Mae'r tren yn galw ym Mirmingham sounds weird, but ym "Mreiton" (Brighton) would/could be heard, but certainly not in written Welsh.

There are a few very detailed books on the subject, I recommend Ball and Muller's Mutation in Welsh as a good evening's read.

Anyway, quite amazing to see a discussion of a fascinating part of the Welsh Language's grammar being discussed on a rail forum

As a completely unrelated question, are Llundain and Manceinion used in announcements? I'm pretty sure I've never heard Bryste for Bristol and it's been a while since trains have run to Yr Efrog, Caeredin and Glascoed from Cardiff...

t.

Ian

Llundain and Manceinion are regularly used. As is Bryste. Certainly at Caerdydd Canolog, Abertawe, Casnewydd, a Wrecsam Cyffredinol.

I must admit I miss the Welsh announcements now I live in Preston.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Yes I also heard/read Llundain Paddington, Manceinion Piccadilly and Bryste Temple Meads when I was in Caerdydd two weeks ago. Also Cryw for Crewe, and Harbwr Portsmouth.

 

[PHILIPE]

Yes I also heard/read Llundain Paddington, Manceinion Piccadilly and Bryste Temple Meads when I was in Caerdydd two weeks ago. Also Cryw for Crewe, and Harbwr Portsmouth.

Ac Amwythig for Shrewsbury. Others up the Marches as well.

 

[PHILIPE]

"Ble it in dod o ...."Or Waun" .....up North that would mean Chirk ,around Ammanford it would be Gwaun Cae Gurwen .....knwn as "Y Waun" for brevity.

Sorry to bore you "maen ddrwg genyf I ...." etc

I was sitting in a train at Chirk once and happened to be staring at the station name which was "Y Waun". Started wondering, why not "Yr Waun, "Yr" normally being used preceding a vowel instead of just "y", "W" being a vowel in the Welsh Language. Although a Welsh speaker myself it started me wondering the reason for this. The only conclusion I reached is because it starts with a "w" only due to it being a mutation of "Gwaun" so "Yr" didn't apply.
Any confirmation or otherwise regarding my theory would be welcome

 

[krus_aragon]

As a completely unrelated question, are Llundain and Manceinion used in announcements? I'm pretty sure I've never heard Bryste for Bristol and it's been a while since trains have run to Yr Efrog, Caeredin and Glascoed from Cardiff...

Llundain and Manceinion are certainly used in announcements: they're to be heard along the North Wales Coast as well.

It's been a few years since I left Cardiff, but my recollection is that Bristol Temple Meads and Parkway were announced in Welsh as "Bryste Temple Meads" and "Bryste Parkway", the latter contrasting oddly with "Parcffordd Glyn Ebwy" for "Ebbw Vale Parkway".

Birmingham New Street and International are untranslated, as I recall. I don't think they use "Caerwysg" for Exeter in their announcements either.

 

[krus_aragon]

If I remember correctly one of the stations on the great western Portsmouth service gets announced in Welsh, I think it might be Salisbury. And iirc Portsmouth and Southsea is Portsmouth Y Southsea and Portsmouth Harbour is Harbwr Portsmouth

I think you're right for both the Portsmouths, but it would be written "Portsmouth a Southsea". I can't recall hearing "Caersallog" on the announcements when I lived down south, though.

 

[krus_aragon]

I was sitting in a train at Chirk once and happened to be staring at the station name which was "Y Waun". Started wondering, why not "Yr Waun, "Yr" normally being used preceding a vowel instead of just "y", "W" being a vowel in the Welsh Language. Although a Welsh speaker myself it started me wondering the reason for this. The only conclusion I reached is because it starts with a "w" only due to it being a mutation of "Gwaun" so "Yr" didn't apply.
Any confirmation or otherwise regarding my theory would be welcome

Your theory appears compeltely plausible to me. Alternatively: As a natural language, there are exceptions to most rules of grammar. Two relevant examples I can think of are "y wal" and "y wennol" (the wall, the swallow). I can't say for certain which catergory Chirk falls into.

(I recall from reading texts on Welsh poetry and cynghanedd that the letter 'w' is sometimes considered a vowel, and sometimes a consonant. That may be the cause of the above exceptions.)

 

[rf_ioliver]

Llundain and Manceinion are regularly used. As is Bryste. Certainly at Caerdydd Canolog, Abertawe, Casnewydd, a Wrecsam Cyffredinol.

I must admit I miss the Welsh announcements now I live in Preston.

Same here...except I live in Finland...(tri lingual announcements, sometimes tetra lingual)

ps: thanks to all who answered my question!

t.

Ian

 

[Hwnt52]

Your theory appears compeltely plausible to me. Alternatively: As a natural language, there are exceptions to most rules of grammar. Two relevant examples I can think of are "y wal" and "y wennol" (the wall, the swallow). I can't say for certain which catergory Chirk falls into.

(I recall from reading texts on Welsh poetry and cynghanedd that the letter 'w' is sometimes considered a vowel, and sometimes a consonant. That may be the cause of the above exceptions.)

'W' is both a vowel and a consonant in Welsh so Y Waun is correct, Waun pronounced as 'Wine', the red stuff that comes in a bottle.

By the way, the announcer in Welsh is Eryl Jones and he is to be commended for his clarity and accuracy.

 

[krus_aragon]

'W' is both a vowel and a consonant in Welsh so Y Waun is correct, Waun pronounced as 'Wine', the red stuff that comes in a bottle.

Indeed, but in "Yr Wyddgrug" (Mold) it's treated as a vowel. :roll:

Digging through the University of Wales Dictionary, I've reminded myself that the full name for the bird swallow is "gwennol", and learned that the word "wal" (borrowed from the Old English weall) was also spelled "gwal" for much of the 15th to 19th centuries. So they do indeed follow the same rule as "Gwaun" (in that the 'g' mutates away after the definite article), but that modern speakers don't always remember that they there used to be a 'g' before the 'w'. I don't know why "Gwyddgrug" above bucks the trend. I guess that's just what makes languages more interesting.

(As a tangent, Wrecsam used to be known as Gwrecsam, but this form fell out of use in the early 20th century.)

 

[Llanigraham]

Talking to one of the Welsh lecturers at Aberystwyth Uni, he reckons that the use of the mutation is gradually disappearing in everyday spoken Welsh, although still there in the written word.

 

[PHILIPE]

Talking to one of the Welsh lecturers at Aberystwyth Uni, he reckons that the use of the mutation is gradually disappearing in everyday spoken Welsh, although still there in the written word.

I once heard a tutor say if you miss a mutation "nobody is going to look at you as though you've got horns growing out of your head"

 

[krus_aragon]

Talking to one of the Welsh lecturers at Aberystwyth Uni, he reckons that the use of the mutation is gradually disappearing in everyday spoken Welsh, although still there in the written word.

I'd agree that their use will become less prevalent, as a growing proportion of Welsh speakers come from non-Welsh-speaking (or mixed-language) households. Those that hear Welsh spoken at home (with full use of mutations) are more likely to use them naturally themselves, for others it's another element of the language that has to be learned. It's just one of a vast number of elements of the language that is still evolving. (*)

I went through the education system at a time when educational philosophy said not to waste time teaching grammar, as most kids will pick it up naturally. Educated in the higher tier for languages (and in a predominantly Welsh-medium school), I recall only one Welsh lesson that concentrated on the rules of mutation! (Such technical things were seemingly put off until A-level, which I didn't take.) I had an interesting conversation with a friend in that class, on how I didn't really know any of the rules of mutation (I just knew by ear what to do, and where) because I'd been raised in a bilingual home, whereas he, raised in an English-speaking home, learned them as he had to use them to know when to mutate words.

(Policy has now swung about such that the full rules of grammar are taught through primary and secondary school. That made life fun for me when working as a school teacher, when many of the youngsters had a better formal understanding than I did, despite being totally fluent in the language!)


* See the growing use of periphrastic verbs: Rather than learning and using all the various concise forms of a verb ("neidiais, neidiaist, neidiodd" for I/you/he jumped) many now use the forms of the verb "to be" with the unchanged verb ("dw'i wedi neidio, rwyt ti wedi neidio, mae o wedi neidio"), and slot in the relevant verb for all purposes. (e.g. "Dw'i wedi neidio, dw'i wedi sythrio, dw'i wedi codi") Having learned the forms of the verb "to be", you can avoid learning the various forms of all the other verbs!

 

[krus_aragon]

I once heard a tutor say if you miss a mutation "nobody is going to look at you as though you've got horns growing out of your head"

Quite right. The core objective of language is to be understood. If you've communicated your meaning, you've used language successfully. After that, it's polishing and perfecting thte little things.

(Although, when a new headmaster came to my secondary school, the fact that he never used mutations sounded very strange to our ears. After some months he started using mutations, but not always in the right place, whcih could be more confusing! He once talked in assembly of abseiling down the Marquis' Column, but instead of "Tŵr" actually said "i lawr Dŵr y Marcwis" - down the Marquis' Water!)

 

[headshot119]

I'd agree that their use will become less prevalent, as a growing proportion of Welsh speakers come from non-Welsh-speaking (or mixed-language) households. Those that hear Welsh spoken at home (with full use of mutations) are more likely to use them naturally themselves, for others it's another element of the language that has to be learned. It's just one of a vast number of elements of the language that is still evolving. (*)

I went through the education system at a time when educational philosophy said not to waste time teaching grammar, as most kids will pick it up naturally. Educated in the higher tier for languages (and in a predominantly Welsh-medium school), I recall only one Welsh lesson that concentrated on the rules of mutation! (Such technical things were seemingly put off until A-level, which I didn't take.) I had an interesting conversation with a friend in that class, on how I didn't really know any of the rules of mutation (I just knew by ear what to do, and where) because I'd been raised in a bilingual home, whereas he, raised in an English-speaking home, learned them as he had to use them to know when to mutate words.

(Policy has now swung about such that the full rules of grammar are taught through primary and secondary school. That made life fun for me when working as a school teacher, when many of the youngsters had a better formal understanding than I did, despite being totally fluent in the language!)


* See the growing use of periphrastic verbs: Rather than learning and using all the various concise forms of a verb ("neidiais, neidiaist, neidiodd" for I/you/he jumped) many now use the forms of the verb "to be" with the unchanged verb ("dw'i wedi neidio, rwyt ti wedi neidio, mae o wedi neidio"), and slot in the relevant verb for all purposes. (e.g. "Dw'i wedi neidio, dw'i wedi sythrio, dw'i wedi codi") Having learned the forms of the verb "to be", you can avoid learning the various forms of all the other verbs!

Having lived in Wales throughout my education, I did Welsh in Infant, Junior, and Secondary School.

I was relegated to only take Foundation Welsh at GCSE, so never did any of the lessons on grammar. Always seemed a bit backward to me.

 

[krus_aragon]

Having lived in Wales throughout my education, I did Welsh in Infant, Junior, and Secondary School.

I was relegated to only take Foundation Welsh at GCSE, so never did any of the lessons on grammar. Always seemed a bit backward to me.

Would I be right in guessing that you went through the education system in the 1990s/2000s? That would match up with my understanding of the change in policy toward grammar. (In five years of studying French at high school, we weren't taught any formal grammar for at least the first three years: it was all by absorbtion / polly-parrot.)