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Links between railways and slavery to be explored in new research project

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LNW-GW Joint

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Applying a 21st century standard to an 18th century situation is pointless, all participants have long since passed away.
Be glad it was abolished.

Slavery might have been abolished by the mid-19th century, but there were still infamous methods used in developing countries using British capital.
Have a look at the history of Lever Bros (now Unilever) in the Belgian Congo after WW1.
UK soap and cosmetics came from palm oil obtained by forced labour by Lever's Congo subsidiary.
Lever's exemplary treatment of its UK workers at Port Sunlight (like Cadbury in Birmingham) contrasted with its exploitation of people and resources in Africa.
They are still one of the largest consumers of palm oil on the planet.
Everything has a modern context: South African gold, Caribbean bananas, Gulf oil, Chilean copper and nitrates, Indian tea, Afghan opium, Malaysian rubber...
We may not be in control of those trades and industries today, but we surely had a major hand in how they started.
 
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ainsworth74

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I somehow doubt you’d be complaining about FPTP if Labour had a majority.
Watch me. It was as ridiculous that Labour won a majority of 66 seats on 35.2% vote in 2005 as it is that the Tories won an 80 seat majority on 43.6% of the vote in 2019 as it is that UKIP won 12.6% of the vote for one seat, the Lib Dems won 7.9% of the vote and got eight seats whilst the SNP won 4.7% of the vote and got 56 seats all in 2015! These are tremendously unhealthy things to happen. Millions of people voted UKIP in 2015 and got just one seat. One! That's stunning indictment of our democracy.

What useful purpose does this kind of research actually have?

Dunno! But that's surely the point of research? How can we know the outcomes before we've actually looked into something? If we took that view on scientific matters we'd be struggling slightly as all sorts of things have been discovered accidently whilst looking for something else or when we weren't expecting to find them. Just saying "oh it isn't useful we shouldn't do it" is a frankly bizarre attitude to take to research. You might think it's pointless but clearly the Universities funding it don't and I think it might increase our knowledge on the subject in question. As I said as far as I can tell the only people "suppressing the narrative" are those on this thread that are suggesting the research shouldn't take place for reasons that are rather hard to understand.

It’s interesting that for the all the obsessing about western colonialism in the past we hear little about things that are actually happening now: China’s current check book colonialism of African countries, modern slavery in the Middle East etc.

You want to talk about that? Great let's do it! I think its abhorrent that China is currently committing genocide against the Uyghurs in Xinjiang and that for the most part the rest of the world is shrugging it's shoulders and at best issuing sternly worded letters. It's damning that we've allowed ourselves to become so beholden to one country to supply so much of our everyday items that basically governments are terrified of going to far in case it costs them dearly. Whilst the Belt & Road initiatives in Africa and elsewhere on the one hand seem to be positives as they do bring massive infrastructure investments to these desperately poor countries but just what happens now that they're also beholden to China? It's a serious problem which western Governments are not doing enough to tackle. Banning Huawei from our 5G telephone network was a good first step but more is required. Meanwhile modern slavery is a blight. It's frankly disgusting that we're all going along with the FIFA World Cup being held in Qatar despite dozens (or by some estimates hundreds or even thousands) of 'migrant' workers have been died building the stadiums. The only drive anyone should need to adopt renewable energy and electrify as much of our transport infrastructure as possible should be so we can tell the Gulf States to go for a long walk off a short pier.

It's perfectly possible to be concerned by our history and want to learn more about it. Especially to flesh out the narratives that have, until very recently, been little talked about and researched and also hold a great deal of concern for the problems we face in the modern day. These are not exclusive concepts. Researching more about how the railways were funded in their early days does not come at the expense of looking at what's happening to the Uyghurs or any other group or nation.
 

Vespa

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Slavery might have been abolished by the mid-19th century, but there were still infamous methods used in developing countries using British capital.
Have a look at the history of Lever Bros (now Unilever) in the Belgian Congo after WW1.
UK soap and cosmetics came from palm oil obtained by forced labour by Lever's Congo subsidiary.
Lever's exemplary treatment of its UK workers at Port Sunlight (like Cadbury in Birmingham) contrasted with its exploitation of people and resources in Africa.
They are still one of the largest consumers of palm oil on the planet.
Everything has a modern context: South African gold, Caribbean bananas, Gulf oil, Chilean copper and nitrates, Indian tea, Afghan opium, Malaysian rubber...
We may not be in control of those trades and industries today, but we surely had a major hand in how they started.
Actually Lord Lever is against the production model in Congo and is on public record stating this view, he did desire to improve the working conditions on the Congolese, his influence on the Belgian Government is limited.

I have in front of me a very interesting booklet explaining this.
 

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eldomtom2

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So you mean all academics (and esp historians) are left wing?

You obviously didn't meet my politics professor who was an advisor to Margaret Thatcher, or Prof Patrick Minford. As to historians, plenty of them I have encountered who were in no sense left wing.
Not all academics or historians are left wing, of course, especially when it comes to economics (though they of course have their own biases and prevailing ideologies). But this does not prevent the field as a whole from leaning hard-left when the field is examined in its totality. We can say that Boston and Skegness is heavily Conservative while acknowledging that over 6,000 voters there voted Labour in the last election.

Little research has been done on academic bias, and even less on specifically British academic bias (but of course nowadays academics from all over the world read and are influenced by each others' work). A 2016 study of American professors' party registration in Econ Journal Watch (generally considered right-wing, but well-respected and the paper in question has been highly cited) found that historians were by far the most likely to be Democrats rather than Republicans, at a staggering 33.5 Democrats per 1 Republican.
 

stuu

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Rather than dismissing a view you don’t agree with as “nonsense” perhaps you should try asking a few Tory voters - and traditional Labour voters for that matter - about what they think of wokeism. Perhaps if the Labour Party asked same question they’d be doing rather better in the polls!

The endless obsession with identity politics cuts little ice with most ordinary right thinking people who frankly have much bigger things to worry about than using correct pronouns and hand wringing about statues and what happened two hundred years ago.

We had a referendum on electoral reform a few years ago and the decision was taken to stick with the existing system, that’s just how democracy works I’m afraid. I somehow doubt you’d be complaining about FPTP if Labour had a majority.
I don't doubt that lots of people are put off by identity politics, me included, but I don't believe it was anything like as big a factor as Brexit and Corbyn's popularity, or lack thereof

We had a referendum on a particularly rubbish alternative, which was doomed to fail because of it's inherent pointlessness and the link with the Lib Dems... And re would I complain about FTFP if Labour were in power, yes, it doesn't make it right. I think it was a travesty that UKIP got 15% of the vote and 1 MP, even though I disagree with every single word they have ever said. It's not right that so many are unrepresented. Like a tory in Rotherham or a Socialist in Guildford, their votes are meaningless and that is wrong.

Little research has been done on academic bias, and even less on specifically British academic bias (but of course nowadays academics from all over the world read and are influenced by each others' work). A 2016 study of American professors' party registration in Econ Journal Watch (generally considered right-wing, but well-respected and the paper in question has been highly cited) found that historians were by far the most likely to be Democrats rather than Republicans, at a staggering 33.5 Democrats per 1 Republican.
Although the obvious questions then are: are left-leaning people more interested in history? Or does the study of history tend to lead to people being more left wing?

Causation or correlation
 

JB_B

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Not all academics or historians are left wing, of course, especially when it comes to economics (though they of course have their own biases and prevailing ideologies). But this does not prevent the field as a whole from leaning hard-left when the field is examined in its totality. We can say that Boston and Skegness is heavily Conservative while acknowledging that over 6,000 voters there voted Labour in the last election.

Little research has been done on academic bias, and even less on specifically British academic bias (but of course nowadays academics from all over the world read and are influenced by each others' work). A 2016 study of American professors' party registration in Econ Journal Watch (generally considered right-wing, but well-respected and the paper in question has been highly cited) found that historians were by far the most likely to be Democrats rather than Republicans, at a staggering 33.5 Democrats per 1 Republican.

Can you explain what you think you mean by "leaning hard-left"? Is supporting the Dems in the US indicative of a "hard-left" view point?

I don't think you could reasonably claim that it is.
 

WesternLancer

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Not all academics or historians are left wing, of course, especially when it comes to economics (though they of course have their own biases and prevailing ideologies). But this does not prevent the field as a whole from leaning hard-left when the field is examined in its totality. We can say that Boston and Skegness is heavily Conservative while acknowledging that over 6,000 voters there voted Labour in the last election.

Little research has been done on academic bias, and even less on specifically British academic bias (but of course nowadays academics from all over the world read and are influenced by each others' work). A 2016 study of American professors' party registration in Econ Journal Watch (generally considered right-wing, but well-respected and the paper in question has been highly cited) found that historians were by far the most likely to be Democrats rather than Republicans, at a staggering 33.5 Democrats per 1 Republican.
causal or co-incidence.
could it be that more highly educated people have decided that leaning hard left is the way to go (or - less well educated people are right wing...):lol:
 

urbophile

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Perhaps things than were long hidden/ignored shall be brought to light at last. Very good I think, as a member of a minority group.
Quite. 'Political correctness' is a long overdue corrective to the political whitewash that has conditioned generations of British people into believing the Empire was an unmixed blessing for all.

If 'rewriting history' means falsifying the record, of course it is wrong.But that's not what is happening here nor in most current cases: it is correcting the record in the light of newly discovered evidence, or evidence that has been swept under the carpet.
 
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eldomtom2

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Can you explain what you think you mean by "leaning hard-left"? Is supporting the Dems in the US indicative of a "hard-left" view point?

I don't think you could reasonably claim that it is.
That is more a claim from personal experience of reading academic articles; views that are not anti-capitalist outside of economic history are rare. America is much more a two-party state than here and so most leftists have to operate within the Democratic Party regardless of their disagreements with it.
Although the obvious questions then are: are left-leaning people more interested in history? Or does the study of history tend to lead to people being more left wing?
I believe the very few studies out there indicate the former; while this is generally presented as proof that universities are not "indoctrination machines", in fact it indicates that academic bias is not based on "reality having a left-wing bias" or anything of that nature.
 

stuu

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I don't know what antisemitism has to do with this. The definition I found does not mention antisemitism. That perhaps is just your interpretation?
No. Like pretty much all right-wing loon conspiracies, cultural marxism has antisemitism at it's heart. The very fact that Marx was Jewish should be a clue. There isn't a cabal of (Jewish) Marxists trying to gain hegemony over the world. There just isn't
 

43066

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You want to talk about that? Great let's do it! I think its abhorrent that China is currently committing genocide against the Uyghurs in Xinjiang and that for the most part the rest of the world is shrugging it's shoulders and at best issuing sternly worded letters. It's damning that we've allowed ourselves to become so beholden to one country to supply so much of our everyday items that basically governments are terrified of going to far in case it costs them dearly. Whilst the Belt & Road initiatives in Africa and elsewhere on the one hand seem to be positives as they do bring massive infrastructure investments to these desperately poor countries but just what happens now that they're also beholden to China? It's a serious problem which western Governments are not doing enough to tackle. Banning Huawei from our 5G telephone network was a good first step but more is required. Meanwhile modern slavery is a blight. It's frankly disgusting that we're all going along with the FIFA World Cup being held in Qatar despite dozens (or by some estimates hundreds or even thousands) of 'migrant' workers have been died building the stadiums. The only drive anyone should need to adopt renewable energy and electrify as much of our transport infrastructure as possible should be so we can tell the Gulf States to go for a long walk off a short pier.

I wholeheartedly agree with the above. Especially the World Cup bit! What an embarrassment and reminds me why I’m glad I’m not a football fan!

It's perfectly possible to be concerned by our history and want to learn more about it. Especially to flesh out the narratives that have, until very recently, been little talked about and researched and also hold a great deal of concern for the problems we face in the modern day. These are not exclusive concepts. Researching more about how the railways were funded in their early days does not come at the expense of looking at what's happening to the Uyghurs or any other group or nation.

For me history is something that should certainly be studied, and indeed learned from (as a way to predict the future).
That doesn’t extend to attacking this country today for things that happened centuries ago to fit a political narrative which, I fear, is what is motivating this particular political research project.
 

XAM2175

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That is more a claim from personal experience of reading academic articles; views that are not anti-capitalist outside of economic history are rare.
Just how much personal experience, pray tell, have you had along those lines in your twenty years of life so far?

And as a supplementary question - what in that same span of time has lead you to be so concerned about "leftists" in academia?
 

43066

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Just how much personal experience, pray tell, have you had along those lines in your twenty years of life so far?

And as a supplementary question - what in that same span of time has lead you to be so concerned about "leftists" in academia?

I must object to this ageist condescension. At age 20 I was up to to my eyes in academic articles! A lot of people are at university around that age.

Rest assured, as someone twice his age who graduated from one of London University’s most prestigious law schools, left wing academics were well and truly in evidence, and are still a cause from concern to this day.
 

WesternLancer

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I must object to this ageist condescension. At age 20 I was up to to my eyes in academic articles! A lot of people are at university around that age.

Rest assured, as someone twice his age who graduated from one of London University’s most prestigious law schools, left wing academics were well and truly in evidence, and are still a cause from concern to this day.
So somehow despite having right of centre or actively rt wing govts in UK for most of the last 100 years - the university sector has somehow become under govt watch a bastion of the left.

Pull the other one.
 

DarloRich

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I will ask again: What is there to scared of in this research? What are you worried about? Do people think Mallard is going to be chucked in the sea because: Slavery?
 

XAM2175

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Rest assured, as someone twice his age who graduated from one of London University’s most prestigious law schools, left wing academics were well and truly in evidence, and are still a cause from concern to this day.
Then I'll ask you the same question: why the concern?
 

eldomtom2

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So somehow despite having right of centre or actively rt wing govts in UK for most of the last 100 years - the university sector has somehow become under govt watch a bastion of the left.

Pull the other one.
This is a truly inexplicable claim. Are the unions all Tories now because we've mostly had Tory governments for the past century?
I will ask again: What is there to scared of in this research? What are you worried about? Do people think Mallard is going to be chucked in the sea because: Slavery?
I think people have a right to be concerned about research being undertaken for ideological ends by a semi-public body.
 

DarloRich

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I think people have a right to be concerned about research being undertaken for ideological ends by a semi-public body.
More words - why are you frightened? What ideology? You and your fellow worried commentators seem to be inventing an "ideology" to define a bogey man. I just don't get it.
 

43066

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I will ask again: What is there to scared of in this research? What are you worried about? Do people think Mallard is going to be chucked in the sea because: Slavery?

I don’t think anyone has said they’re “scared”. Shock horror some of us are still proud to be British and enjoy living in what is, despite the weather, a benign and tolerant democracy. Some of us are also deeply frustrated at the steady chorus of left wing agitators who seem to absolutely loathe this country and insist on judging events well before living memory by 21st century standards. This kind of loaded “research” project serves no useful purpose and is adding fuel to their fire.


So somehow despite having right of centre or actively rt wing govts in UK for most of the last 100 years - the university sector has somehow become under govt watch a bastion of the left.

Pull the other one.

Universities, and especially students unions, are often hotbeds of left wing political activism, yes. Note the recent events at the LSE, for example. Surely that doesn’t come as a surprise to anyone who has been to university?


We had a referendum on a particularly rubbish alternative, which was doomed to fail because of it's inherent pointlessness and the link with the Lib Dems... And re would I complain about FTFP if Labour were in power, yes, it doesn't make it right. I think it was a travesty that UKIP got 15% of the vote and 1 MP, even though I disagree with every single word they have ever said. It's not right that so many are unrepresented. Like a tory in Rotherham or a Socialist in Guildford, their votes are meaningless and that is wrong.

Yes it was a pretty rubbish alternative. But do you honestly detect much appetite to change the current system?
 

DarloRich

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I don’t think anyone has said they’re “scared”. Shock horror some of us are still proud to be British and enjoy living in what is, despite the weather, a benign and tolerant democracy. Some of us are also deeply frustrated at the steady chorus of left wing agitators who seem to absolutely loathe this country and insist on judging events well before living memory by 21st century standards. This kind of loaded “research” project serves no useful purpose and is adding fuel to their fire.
So to be clear: Criticising this research is just a tool to further your own crusade of attacking those who don't agree with you and aren't prepared to see Britain as perfect and beyond criticism. Personally, I am very proud be British but I am also perfectly comfortable to look at and understand how we got here. We should acknowledge that our past is both good and bad. Why does that worry you and others so much?

Universities, and especially students unions, are often hotbeds of left wing political activism
My university wasn't. Mine was a hot bed of binge drinking and trying to sleep with people. Perhaps I mixed with the wrong crowd.

PS Surely there have always been "right on students"? I know when I was at university we just laughed at them.
 
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deltic

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Little research has been done on academic bias, and even less on specifically British academic bias (but of course nowadays academics from all over the world read and are influenced by each others' work). A 2016 study of American professors' party registration in Econ Journal Watch (generally considered right-wing, but well-respected and the paper in question has been highly cited) found that historians were by far the most likely to be Democrats rather than Republicans, at a staggering 33.5 Democrats per 1 Republican.

Thanks for posting - interesting paper, as an economist not sure what to make of the quote

Another reason, no doubt, is that economists, on the whole, are somewhat less attracted to either of the two parties and are somewhat less inclined toward moral outlooks that make voting a significant matter of personal meaning and selfhood.
 

43066

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So to be clear: Criticising this research is just a tool to further your own crusade of attacking those who don't agree with you and aren't prepared to see Britain as perfect and beyond criticism. Personally, I am very proud be British but I am also perfectly comfortable to look at and understand how we got here. We should acknowledge that our past is both good and bad. Why does that worry you so much?

I’ve never said it’s perfect or beyond criticism, but I simply fail to see the benefit of scrutinising events from centuries ago. Can somebody please explain who is going to benefit and why, and don’t we have bigger fish to fry dealing with the here and now?!

My university wasn't. Mine was a hot bed of drinking and trying to sleep with people. Perhaps I mixed with the wrong crowd.

Yep, those of us who read law soon realised our mistake of subject choice - a lot of the law students displayed disturbingly sociopathic tendencies - ripping pages out of library text books that were required reading for assessed essays, for example. We had far too much reading to do to waste time with such fripperies as drinking and chasing women. Oh to have done English or History, cruising to a 2:1 spending most of your time propping up the student bar.

Excellent preparation for life on the railway….
 

coppercapped

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Coming back to this debate after a couple of days. I endorse entirely O L Leigh’s summary of his position in post 123.

Whilst now appreciating that the proposed research is not solely concentrated on the UK but has an international aspect, one of the conclusions I draw from the posts is that it is considered by some that the subject of slavery and the slave trade has been ignored or played down in UK historical research and that the popular historical narrative of British, or more specifically, English, history is inaccurate.

’Twas ever thus…

In 1845 Benjamin Disraeli wrote, in Sybil, or the Two Nations, about the history of England:
Generally speaking, all the great events have been distorted, most of the important causes concealed, some of the principal characters never appear, and all who figure are so misunderstood and misrepresented, that the result is a complete mystification, and the perusal of the narrative about us about as profitable to an Englishman as reading the Republic of Plato or the Utopia of More.

One has to be careful to separate the popular memory of events with the accuracy and detail expected in works of scholarship. Much ‘memory’, individual or collective, is fiction, and no less powerful for that; historical academic research has a different purpose. It enables one to look at the present and explain why things are as they are because of an event, or many events, in the past.

The problem, which is reflected by posts in this thread, is that much scholarship is hidden from the public gaze in the pages of learned journals and scholarly monographs and articles and as a result is often ignored.

My contention is that the slave trade and its economic, social and personal impact, both in Britain and aboard, has already been the subject of volumes of academic research. It is inaccurate and ill informed to suggest that little has been done as opening any serious text book about English, British, French or Spanish history will show.

The pity is that history is no longer taught as a narrative - my son for example was taught at school about the Tudors, Nazi Germany and the Russian Revolution with no material showing how, or why, these things were linked together. Nominally the course was intended to teach the students how to look for and interpret the documents available but as one of the major points of school education is - or should be - to teach people to think critically, this was disingenuous and lazy.

Much information is already available, it only has to be looked for.

Added in Edit:

One final point - or this will be TLDR...

Any analysis has to be complete. For example the role of compensation payments made by the Act of 1837 (mentioned above) in the supply of capital to the railways in their infancy should also consider the effects of the Railway Mania less than ten years later which wiped out much of the invested capital. The effects of the cotton trade on the income of some railway and canal companies had a different effect - but the American Civil War put paid to slavery by 1865 and changed the cost and quantity of the raw materials.

But the biggest winner of the American Civil War was Egypt which stepped in to supply cotton as hostilities stopped the supply.

As soon as the Civil War broke out, around the world farmers with suitable climates planted some cotton as prices had risen by up to 150 percent. As soon as it became clear that Britain wouldn’t enter the war on the side of the Confederacy, many of these farmers concentrated on cotton.

No one, however, seized on the opportunity quite like the Egyptians. Between 1861 and 1863, Egypt had more than doubled its cotton exports and by the end of the 19th century, it derived 93% of its export revenues from cotton.

So, did Egypt benefit from slavery because slavery assisted in creating a market for cotton - or did it benefit from the Abolition because it became a major supplier?
 
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DarloRich

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but I simply fail to see the benefit of scrutinising events from centuries ago
That is an argument for not looking at history. Ever!

Can somebody please explain who is going to benefit and why,
I would say we would all benefit from having a wider base of knowledge, greater contextualisation and an enhanced understanding of how we came to be where we are today.

Yep, those of us who read law soon realised our mistake of subject choice - a lot of the law students displayed disturbingly sociopathic tendencies - ripping pages out of library text books that were required reading for assessed essays, for example. We had far too much reading to do to waste time with such fripperies as drinking and chasing women. Oh to have done English or History, cruising to a 2:1 spending most of your time propping up the student bar.
I think there might have been something wrong with your university! I have a law degree and while I recognise the hours I had to put in to get it I cant say I ever found any vandalised text books.

I spent a lot of time drinking and chasing women, at least in my first 3 years. I failed at the later more than I scored mind! I would have got a first if I did something easy like History or reading books ( or English literature as it is called)
 

bspahh

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My university wasn't. Mine was a hot bed of binge drinking and trying to sleep with people. Perhaps I mixed with the wrong crowd.
I went to Bath University. Simon Hoggart once reported from a hustings between election candidates in the Student Union lounge. He described it as a "hotbed of student rest".

If you want to know more about King Leopold II and the Congo, these episodes of the "Behind the Bastards podcast" are worth a listen.

 
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43066

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That is an argument for not looking at history. Ever!

Apologies, I had actually meant to say scrutinising events from centuries ago with a 21st century eye.

I would say we would all benefit from having a wider base of knowledge, greater contextualisation and an enhanced understanding of how we came to be where we are today.

Yes but that can be done objectively without making history about “goodies and badies” and selectively scrutinising the nastier aspects of western history while ignoring everything else.

I think there might have been something wrong with your university! I have a law degree and while I recognise the hours I had to put in to get it I cant say I ever found any vandalised text books.

I spent a lot of time drinking and chasing women, at least in my first 3 years. I failed at the later more than I scored mind! I would have got a first if I did something easy like History or reading books ( or English literature as it is called)

It was a strange place (over the road from the LSE, in fact they nicked our union mascot at one point). It was full of emotionally stunted people who were chippy about why Oxbridge had rejected them despite their stellar A level grades.

Yep English was cruisy, but they let just about anybody in to study that. As law students, we knew we were cleverer, and it mattered to us. ;)
 

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who is going to benefit and why
Me. If I go to a museum and see some information on connections with slavery I will think huh that's interesting. Not good how intrinsic slavery was in our lives. then I will go home and carry on living like I always have, with just some extra information in my brain.
 

43066

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Me. If I go to a museum and see some information on connections with slavery I will think huh that's interesting. Not good how intrinsic slavery was in our lives. then I will go home and carry on living like I always have, with just some extra information in my brain.

Maybe you should stop to consider that if you’d been alive 200 years ago you’d have very different views and opinions to what you have currently…
 
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