Live Departure Boards

[somersetlever]

Is the progress of a passenger service top secret?

The staff version of the Live Departure Boards system enables the progress of a service to be tracked and displayed as many of you no doubt know. The public version however just lets us see when a service is due to arrive/depart at a particular station. I understand the need for hush-hush regarding some freight services, eg nuke and MOD etc, but for a passenger train??

Obviously, different levels of access enable different functions but I'm just talking about the basic information details being made public.

Be interesting to know what others think?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I think its an ease of use thing. The overwhelming majority of people who use these things don't care what time their train to Birmingham passed Ahyno Junction or whether it is being looped at Dorridge to allow an XC service through. They just want to know if it is running on time so the information presented to them only shows them that. It is pointless bombarding people with information that isnt really what they need to know.

That said, there are things like this online.

 

[craigwilson]

Is the progress of a passenger service top secret?

The staff version of the Live Departure Boards system enables the progress of a service to be tracked and displayed as many of you no doubt know. The public version however just lets us see when a service is due to arrive/depart at a particular station. I understand the need for hush-hush regarding some freight services, eg nuke and MOD etc, but for a passenger train??

Obviously, different levels of access enable different functions but I'm just talking about the basic information details being made public.

Be interesting to know what others think?

You can view the progress of a service easily with Thales' "Rail Planner Live" app on Android phones - see here. I'm sure you'd be able to do the same with the iPhone equivalent.

The app is quite useful, as when a service is delayed, the time expected is often based on the service making up time, rather than showing the real delay. A Virgin train delayed leaving Crewe could probably make that time back with the non-stop run to London, but a train that is 20 mins down leaving Ashford International will most likely still be 20 mins down at Sandwich (for example) - closely spaced stops, and no opportunity to make up time.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Does it really matter if you know where the train is? I have access to the staff version and very rarely use anything but the arrival/departure time at my station simply because no-one actually seems to care where the train is, just when it is going to arrive.

 

[stut]

I don't know who provides the data for LDB, but certainly for FCC, it's become less and less useful recently. It'll tell you if your train is a few minutes late, but any greater disruption and the information no longer seems to make it on there.

 

[HST Power]

I don't care where the train is, so long as it arrives on time.

And I doubt they'd implement the staff system into operation for the public, it would probably breach about 650,000 laws over safety and security.

Besides, thanks to Apple and Blackberry, you can know just about everything about your train by downloading an app. The colour of the carpets, the stitching on the seats, just top up your store account and you'll get it in seconds!

 

[Nicholas43]

National Rail Enquiries website "Show me live departures & arrivals" does tell you, if you click on 'details' in the list, how late the train is at each record point.
Don't see how that could easily be incorporated in the 'live' departure screens at stations, however.
What I find annoying at Oxford is that, for a train starting at Oxford, 'on time' can mean 'in the carriage sidings and ready to go', or 'we are trying to find a driver', or 'the carriages to form this are expected to arrive 43 minutes late from Paddington and we have no idea whether or when it will depart'.

 

[HST Power]

N
What I find annoying at Oxford is that, for a train starting at Oxford, 'on time' can mean 'in the carriage sidings and ready to go', or 'we are trying to find a driver', or 'the carriages to form this are expected to arrive 43 minutes late from Paddington and we have no idea whether or when it will depart'.

Unsurprising really, if I was a TOC owner I'd hardly want publicised a delayed or uncertain service until absolutely necessary to do so.

 

[CliveJones]

Is the progress of a passenger service top secret?

No. Go to Live Departure boards and click "details" it shows "Train last reported" point and how late it was at each point.

Here is an example (will expire in a few hours)

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/ldbdetails/hf+sfX2PNSqALkstlYRo2Q==

What I find annoying at Oxford is that, for a train starting at Oxford, 'on time' can mean 'in the carriage sidings and ready to go', or 'we are trying to find a driver', or 'the carriages to form this are expected to arrive 43 minutes late from Paddington and we have no idea whether or when it will depart'.

Unless a delay is manually entered computers do not know about things like that.

 

[Jonfun]

No. Go to Live Departure boards and click "details" it shows "Train last reported" point and how late it was at each point.

That simply shows the train's progress for its calling points only though, rather than all of its reporting points which the staff systems show. I personally don't see why there's the fear of making this information public - it's not like it says anything which could interfere with safety - does it matter if Joe Smith wants to track the progress of his train, like he can do within a couple of clicks with a flight? Fair enough sitting at a computer watching an icon of a plane move across a map might not be everyone's cup of tea, some may say it's pointless - but some people have uses for it. Same with headcodes and such - yes, on the face of it, it may seem pointless information, but I don't see why that has to translate to "we're not giving it to you". (Admittedly they do sometimes get shown, a Man Picc train departures board and the 'Service number' or whatever it's labelled as on the side of Pendos spring to mind).

The only convincing argument I've heard so far (and agree with) as to why the general public shouldn't have access to these sorts of things is the fact as the systems log delays, hence they could be used for fraudulent delay repay claims - though surely there must be a way to offer a cut down version that doesn't log delay minutes for a significant amount of time to prevent it? By all means if there's a serious argument against which I haven't yet considered, do say.

Cheers

 

[Mojo]

The screens embedded into the help points used at some FGW stations show the last station or location (if a timing point) which your train called at/passed.

I suspect one of the reasons full access isn't available is to avoid stupid questions being asked by those who don't know how the system works and shouldn't really be using the tool.

 

[The Planner]

The majoirty of timing points would be meaningless to the average punter, if your waiting at Stafford and you find out that your train has just passed Amington Jn, would you be any better off ?

 

[CliveJones]

That simply shows the train's progress for its calling points only though, rather than all of its reporting points which the staff systems show.

The OP only asked about the progress of the train being available. That seems to fulfill the states requirement.

 

[Jonfun]

Fair enough Clive - I interpreted the below as meaning he was aware that the current system allows one to track the progress of a train at a particular station and was interested in the more detailed progress info:

The public version however just lets us see when a service is due to arrive/depart at a particular station.

The majoirty of timing points would be meaningless to the average punter, if your waiting at Stafford and you find out that your train has just passed Amington Jn, would you be any better off ?

Some would, some wouldn't be - but noone would be worse off. I do take the point about potential for confusion though. I'm not hugely for or hugely against, I just do wonder why it's seen to need to hide so much from the public (more detailed running info, headcodes, fares manuals, etc) when it isn't going to compromise anything safety related and isn't really top secret stuff.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Well for me, I'd find it useful as I create activities for simulators and timetables for SimSig (which requires timing points). It's useful to see where the sleeper is so I know when to dive outside for it, but I can't.

It would be useful for me but yet it's still top secret that not even I would be allowed access for the simple reasons above

 

[somersetlever]

Well for me, I'd find it useful as I create activities for simulators and timetables for SimSig (which requires timing points).



Thats you and me both.

 

[snail]

The majoirty of timing points would be meaningless to the average punter, if your waiting at Stafford and you find out that your train has just passed Amington Jn, would you be any better off ?

It would if I was at home, checking to see if the person that caught the Euston train, last stop Warrington BQ, was still on time. Better than the wildly optimistic ETA times the site calculates for trains with long non-stop runs.

I would also like to be able to see what time the train arrived at Euston, not have it disappear from LDB as soon as it gets there. A short (say 1 hour) historical display would also be good if I'm on the last minute going to a station so I can see whether that 'late' train has left or not, without having to work out its next stop to view the stopping details.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That said, there are things like this online.

That's only based on published LDB timings though. The location points are purely statistical calculations from the last stopping point + timetable, not intermediate timing points.

 

[dbrb2]

There is currently an ORR investigation into what data NRE should make public via their public API, as there seems to be some ongoing uncertainty as to exactly who owns the data, and how free "or otherwise") it should be to developers of websites and apps.

My page does have a license:

http://livetrains.co.uk/

But one of the biggest limitations I find is precisely as mentioned by the OP - if I have a friend on a train from Glasgow to London, and they have vanished from the Glasgow departures board, but not yet appeared on the London arrivals board, then I have no way of finding the status of their train - short of trying every intermediate station until I find one one whose dep/arrivals board the service still appears.

The ability to have a unique id for a service, which could be used to request a status update for it across its entire journey, would be really handy for this kind of problem.