Liverpool Lime St. - Norwich

[WillPS]

First of all - I'm a bit of a n00b with all this. Although I absolutely adore travelling by train and I've always had a passing interest, I don't consider myself to be an enthusiast.

I have, for many years now, been making use of the former Central Citylink service that runs between Liverpool and Norwich; my family home is in Nottingham, my grandparents and cousins live up in Norfolk not far from Thetford, and since I've started university I've lived in Sheffield. Additionally, a close friend of mine lives in Liverpool, so as I'm sure you can see it's a pretty good service for me...

And I must say it can't be only me it's useful for, as it's pretty much always been reasonably busy (by that I mean at least a third to three quarters of all seats taken).

Central Trains, whilst having a pretty abysmal record on their local services (I personally can recall being stuck at Uttoxeter on their Alton Towers all inclusive, waiting for a delayed train which never arrived followed by a cancellation followed by a train shortened to Derby - and of all the places to be stuck Uttoxeter is probably one of the least interesting places I can imagine, I digress) actually in my experience ran their CityLink services rather well.

Perhaps it was only good luck on my part, but a 3-car Turbostar always used to turn up when it was busy, and a 2-car Sprinter always used to turn up at quieter times. In any case, there was never really that much of a problem with overcrowding in my view. I think at worst I saw a couple of standees on a Turbostar between Peterborough and Ely once.

This has seriously deteriorated under East Midlands Trains. Not only do we no longer have the luxury of Turbostars, we have to put up with 2-car Sprinters pretty much all the time. I understand that is down to CT/NX providing bad information to the DfT in terms of passenger levels - but in any case since the end of last year we've had a pretty inadequate level of space on board.

This is made worse by the fact that 158's are (from a totally passenger based point of view) entirely inferior to Turbostars. Turbostars are clearly designed more with standees in mind with their large centre doors and lack of that annoying vestibule 158s have - I have had to stand on a packed journey from Thetford to Nottingham in that Vestibule area and it is completely disgusting. Not only do you have to put up with being close to so many people in that confined space (I'm by no means claustrophobic, I just don't enjoy standing around a load of smelly people), you must also endure people clambering through to get to the toilet. Aside from that, there's the fact that Turbostars are newer, and just an all round nicer train to be aboard.

Add to this the problem that the Sprinters East Midlands Trains have are so wildly varied in themselves - occasionally you get that lovely South West Trains unit with the declassified First Class seating (nobody seems to understand that you're allowed to sit there - not that I'm complaining!), sometimes you get one of the old Central Trains unit which are a bit tired generally, and sometimes you get one of those mad maroon 'big N' trains with the remnants of about 5 different operators visible on them - which are also a bit past it inside. The worst is when you get a 'dogbox' - pretty uncomfortable generally, not to mention dirty and frankly knackered - then some moron gets on and opens a window and you have to ponder over when and how it's polite to go back and close it when you know everyone else on the train does not appreciate that window was opened. I hope the variations in fleet are sorted by the refurbishment that's underway.

Refurbishment or no, the fact will remain that the trains EMT currently give us are just not fit for purpose. What annoys me (and I guess this also applies as a gripe about privatisation in general) is that what with one thing and another I don't know who I should be annoyed with:

• East Midlands Trains - Initially I was annoyed with East Midlands Trains, though with a little reading into it it's difficult to see how up to now much has been their fault, aside from sending out a dogbox on the route and then one of the nicer 158s on the nearly empty Robin Hood Line
• Central Trains/National Express - a lot of stuff I've read has suggested there was a lot of bad information passed between Central Trains and East Midlands Trains which at best hasn't helped things and at worst has completely messed up projected passenger numbers etc.
• Department for Transport
  • first of all for the franchise reshuffle, which I don't really see has benefitted anyone other than the new franchisees particularly. In my view having one 'out of London' franchise and one local/cross-country franchise makes sense, as was the case with Midland Mainline and Central Trains.
  • Then of course for not allocating decent enough stock to EMT
  .

Here's my real gripe though: the new timetable is coming and with it so is EMT's chance to make a real positive impact on customers. Supposedly EMT is getting their hands on Hull Trains' Pioneers - and where are they going? To flipping Corby. I simply don't understand how a town with a population of just a little over 50,000 is going to provide the demand for a 4/5 car Pioneer direct to London. Okay, so Kettering are going to be making use of the service too but surely it would have made more sense to jig some more of the other services St. Pancras services to go through Kettering and then have a refurbished dogbox or two forming the branch between Kettering and Corby. Or hell - why not just run that service with 158s - is the idea of 158s running into St. Pancras completely unrealistic?

Perhaps it's the socialist in me that just wants everything in the public interest to be dealt with on a needs basis, but I think that the many people who use the former Citylink service are being completely stung here. I can't help but think that none of this would have happened under BR - and if it would have then it could have been rectified far quicker than is currently the case.

 

[mumrar]

You can't really assess demand for the amount of carriages purely by the route it takes to get there, if so the 17:49 New St-Nottingham which goes via Coleshill Parkway to be different, must only require a single 153 or Parry people mover.

You say you caught a 3-car to Thetford to visit family, well according to Wikipedia that has a population under half that or Corby.

Whilst I understand the gripe about a lack of space on EMT services, the argument seems baseless or at least needs more basis on facts along the entire route served rather than one station

 

[WillPS]

You say you caught a 3-car to Thetford to visit family, well according to Wikipedia that has a population under half that or Corby.

The train had come from Liverpool, and was bound for Norwich. I was only on board for the Nottingham-Thetford stretch but the train was busy when I got on, and busy when I got off. Off the top of my head the only stop after Thetford is Norwich, a city with over twice the population of Corby

Whilst I understand the gripe about a lack of space on EMT services, the argument seems baseless or at least needs more basis on facts along the entire route served rather than one station

I'm not quite sure what you mean. I have used all parts of the service twixt Liverpool and Thetford (at seperate times, mind). My gripe is that a service principally serving Kettering (population ~50000) and Corby (population ~50000) is getting preferential treatment over a crosscountry service that is already facing overcrowding.

I don't want to dwell too much on population as unless you're playing Transport Tycoon I understand it doesn't always directly correllate to a greater demand for service. Indeed, London has a population of 7m+, but of course the number of those who will find a service direct to Corby useful is limited.

I simply am sceptical of the plans for Corby, and think that the trains could be put to use better elsewhere.

 

[djw1981]

You could also blame your local socialist politicians. It seems that those in the North West bleated louder (or for longer) about their lack of rolling stock, and thus were given 3 cl180's for 2 years. As on this route, they cannot run at 125mph on much of their chosen route in the North West, but will provide additional capacity.

Maybe with a East Midlands MP now bin the hot seat instead of a North West MPO you may see some changes.

 

[WillPS]

You could also blame your local socialist politicians. It seems that those in the North West bleated louder (or for longer) about their lack of rolling stock, and thus were given 3 cl180's for 2 years. As on this route, they cannot run at 125mph on much of their chosen route in the North West, but will provide additional capacity.

Maybe with a East Midlands MP now bin the hot seat instead of a North West MPO you may see some changes.

Sadly I think you're right. Bizarrely it seems that privatisation has bought on a bizarre spat of political pleasing. This definitely seems to be the case with Corby in any case.

I'm sure I've heard/read it that Stagecoach regularly make healthy donations to the Labour party, and funnily enough before 1997 used to make healthy donations to the Conservatives, so yeah I wouldn't put it past them that this is what it all boils down to.

Just to qualify on that socialist comment I made - I'm not up for outright socialism; I don't subscribe to the Socialist Worker or any of that. I just am of the opinion that public services should be provided on a needs basis, but I guess that's just craving BR really, which doesn't help much here and now.

 

[Coradia]

In some respects it had little difference with the 170s, if a two car one turned up it would just just as much chaos as a 2 car 158. I think the next few months will tell the sucess of this route with the refurbished 158s. If EMT are correct i saying they have much more seating capacity, and the fact that they are cleaner (but for how long?) will make the journey slightly more pleasurable.

Having sida that though there might still be a chance of 222's on this route. Surely they would't be doing all this testing to Liverpool and Ely for no reason.

 

[Aureol]

I think the next few months will tell the sucess of this route with the refurbished 158s. If EMT are correct i saying they have much more seating capacity, and the fact that they are cleaner (but for how long?) will make the journey slightly more pleasurable.

Having sida that though there might still be a chance of 222's on this route. Surely they would't be doing all this testing to Liverpool and Ely for no reason.

The refurbished EMT 158s will (do) have 158 seats, including the fold-down ones in the vestibules.
Also, I think there are to be 5 222s on the Liverpool-Norwich runs, though I am happy to be corrected on this.

 

[Coradia]

If the route does get these Meridians, alongside the refurbed 158s should be by far better. I think it hasn't helped the route in the slightest with the Bradway Tunnel works. Was on a service to Chesterfield a month agoand the majorty of pax carried onwards to Sheffifled and even onboard a ridiculously crowded 185 to Manchester (since they depart earlier than the connecting EMT 158s there).

This made me wonder why they bother terminating them at Chesterfield and have a separate one at Sheffield to Liverpool (to which you can't get because it takes 35 mins to get to Sheff so end up getting a tpx instead) if so many passengers stay onboard to Manchester/Liverpool. Why not have the service run Norwich-Nottingham, then via the freight only line to Derbyshire then connect to the Uttoxeter line and run direct to Crewe (allowing Stockport & Manchester pax to alight for another service from Crewe) then run it from Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[AlexS]

The general issue is that the Central Trains operation was a very convoluted one - you did literally find a unit in Cambridge in the morning and it would be on a Shrewsbury local service by mid afternoon.

This allowed them to use all of their units everywhere to provide capacity where required - as a result a 3 car train could be diagrammed on Liverpool to Norwich in the afternoon and end up on a terminating Nottingham train then head to Birmingham in the evening.

With the split of franchise, you have what is a very different issue. Each operator can only use their own units. London Midland took several 3 car 170/6s which operate Birmingham to Shrewsbury, Birmingham to Stafford (soon to become Rugeley) and Birmingham to Hereford. The rest went to Cross Country, who struggle to provide enough capacity at peak times with their fleet being biased towards 2 car units.

EMT got stuck with a sprinter fleet as they mainly operate local services. The Scouse to Norwich service gets stuck in the middle as a 'local-express' much like the Brum to Stansted train.

The result is London Midland operates it's local services with 170s while you might get a 156 on a Liverpool to Norwich train.

 

[WillPS]

The general issue is that the Central Trains operation was a very convoluted one - you did literally find a unit in Cambridge in the morning and it would be on a Shrewsbury local service by mid afternoon.

This allowed them to use all of their units everywhere to provide capacity where required - as a result a 3 car train could be diagrammed on Liverpool to Norwich in the afternoon and end up on a terminating Nottingham train then head to Birmingham in the evening.

With the split of franchise, you have what is a very different issue. Each operator can only use their own units. London Midland took several 3 car 170/6s which operate Birmingham to Shrewsbury, Birmingham to Stafford (soon to become Rugeley) and Birmingham to Hereford. The rest went to Cross Country, who struggle to provide enough capacity at peak times with their fleet being biased towards 2 car units.

EMT got stuck with a sprinter fleet as they mainly operate local services. The Scouse to Norwich service gets stuck in the middle as a 'local-express' much like the Brum to Stansted train.

The result is London Midland operates it's local services with 170s while you might get a 156 on a Liverpool to Norwich train.

Central Trains may well have suffered similarly when BR was broken up, that extra degree of flexibility is lost. Of course it also means that if there's a problem on the line, for your example, near Cambridge, then the Shrewsbury service will suffer later, whereas now problems are more isolated (in theory anyway).

Five 222s on Norwich - Liverpool? Crikey that's good - how many trains already run on here? Surely enough to couple up the leftover 158s to form 4 car units. Does this document tell any tales at all?

 

[xtradj]

isnt this one of the longest busiest services in the uk, yet still it stops nearly everywhere and is ran by old 158's at best

i think this route is to big for EMT, and the reason they keep it is because of the money it generates

its about time XC took this route over, and cut out the minor Widnes, Dore, Alfreton, March stations.. and concentrated on the main cities, major towns to make it more of an express route

i honestly think if XC took over and provided it with voyagers, you'd see a massive uprise in passenger numbers

i simply refuse to travel EMT from liverpool, and instead use the FTP when going to manchester, which is alot cleaner and spacious

 

[Aureol]

cut out the minor Widnes, Dore, Alfreton, March stations..

Errr, excuse me, Alfreton's a minor station and town? Being from Alfreton myself I know just how many thousands live here, and the platforms at Alfreton can be fairly busy at the best of times (about 15 - 20 people off peak and as many as 40 have been noted on one platform during peak hours). It certainly is not a "minor" station. It may be small with only 2 platforms (both full length for a HST), but it's quite a busy one, thus generating plenty of income for EMT.

 

[MCR247]

I will barely ever choose to go on an EMT to Manchester/Liverpool. Normally I get a train from Derby-Crewe and Crewe-Manchester/Liverpool. One thing also is that on Sundays they have a Corby-Kettering shuttle to connect, but why not have it as a Class 153x2/3 or a 158 and a 156? Why waste a 4/5 car meridian that could be working a Liverpool-Norwich.

158's cant live up to 170 standards on liverpool to norwich because I have NEVER seen one leave Nottingham ontime towards Norwich!!

 

[Pumbaa]

Aye - and Widnes can be surprisingly busy as well, being a dormitory town and all for both Manchester and Liverpool.

 

[P156KWJ]

its about time XC took this route over, and cut out the minor Widnes, Dore, Alfreton, March stations.. and concentrated on the main cities, major towns to make it more of an express route

Alfreton station is very well used. We shouldn't be turfing people off the trains! I think it'd be more manageable if we simply had more trains. The advantage with the 170s was they were compatible with 158s, unlike the problems we see with FTPE, where 170s aren't compatible with 185s.

i honestly think if XC took over and provided it with voyagers, you'd see a massive uprise in passenger numbers

if we had a massive uprise in passengers, we'd ahve the same problem again :roll: and where are these voyagers coming from, XC is struggling as it is!

 

[djw1981]

isnt this one of the longest busiest services in the uk, yet still it stops nearly everywhere and is ran by old 158's at best

i think this route is to big for EMT, and the reason they keep it is because of the money it generates
<snip>

i simply refuse to travel EMT from liverpool, and instead use the FTP when going to manchester, which is alot cleaner and spacious

Liverpool to Manchester you should be using the local train not the intercity. people doing this is perhaps part of the problem.....

Also what makes you think MT want this headache? DfT decide the franchise and routes, and to an extent the rolling stock.

 

[First class]

Haha,you're kidding about getting the local to Manchester arent you?

A single 142 during peak time stopping at ALL stations to Oxford Road only, taking 1hr20mins versus an express 158/185 at 50mins.

Then you have to remember a lot of passengers would pay 1st class if it was available, mainly during the peak...

I think maybe making Widnes & Warrington pickup stops only might help, as the local isn't too bad for those stations.

That Network Rail letter link is just basically asking for permission to run these 222s as and when required, which is only supposed to be selected summer Saturdays.

Also amusing how you call the service 'intercity'. The DfT see it as a 'local' hence the 158s. If the DfT did decide to view it as intercity, it would almost certainly see new rolling stock.

 

[yorkie]

Liverpool to Manchester you should be using the local train not the intercity. people doing this is perhaps part of the problem......

Arguably there is no InterCity service. The choice is of regional expresses or stoppers. In this case the regional express is extended for a very long distance, but distance itself doesn't make it 'InterCity'.

Changing subject to the stock, I think that the people who moan at 158s vs 170s have probably never travelled on a SWT refurbished 158, as if they had they would realise that these trains are far superior to the ex-Central tatty 170s. Of course the ex-Central 158s are even more tatty than the 170s.

The 158s were ordered to be an Express DMU for shorter, almost InterCity-style journeys. It has an InterCity style interior with end vestibule doors and is therefore more suitable for long distance services.

The 170s are more suited for crowded, short distance services with their 2/3 door layout and extra standing room. They have less seats per vehicle than 158s.

The solution is for longer trains. 158s are fine, but they should be 4 car, perhaps with a first class section, and they should be refurbished to the same standard as SWTs.

Perhaps there is a market for an additional service along the core route using the Dore curve to provide faster journey times between Nottingham and Manchester.

 

[me123]

You moan about 158s on that route, but we used to have them all the way to Manchester!!!

 

[David]

Perhaps there is a market for an additional service along the core route using the Dore curve to provide faster journey times between Nottingham and Manchester.

2 reasons why that wont happen.

1. The main flows are Nottingham - Sheffield and Sheffield - Manchester/Liverpool. Not that many people (compared to overall passenger numbers) make the through journey between Nottingham and Manchester/Liverpool.

2 Without a significant upgrade, the Hope Valley is just about at full capacity anyway. There is perhaps 1 spare path every 2 hours each way. Even with a big upgade of the line, you still have the bottlenecks at Totley and Cowburn tunnels.

 

[Waverley125]

It does need to have longer trains on the route, with fewer stops. The early morning service stops can be justified, as these are commuter stops. However, I can't help but feel that 2 158s are the minimum that should be allowed. End to End it's one of the longest operations in the country, and would IMO be far better off running as an XC service. But for most trains, the stops only need to be Widnes, Warrington, Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Nottingham,Grantham, Peterborough, March, Ely, Thetford & Norwich. Voyagers or Meridians/Pioneers would be nice, especially as they'd provide first class accomodation & proper onboard catering, but I can't see it happening. It's amazing how 'intercity' is defined as SW-NE and this service runs SE-NW. I you draw them on the railway map they make almost a perfect cross, meeting at Sheffield.

 

[Aureol]

Again, why on earth miss Alfreton out? It's a busy station all day everyday and it needs the service.

 

[WillPS]

Langley Mill is not included on the Norwich - Liverpool service from December which is a step in the right direction, I too think that Alfreton doesn't need to be on both the Northern service and the EMT service, so should probably be taken off Norwich - Liverpool too. Most people using these services from Alfreton are using it for Sheffield or Nottingham, and in either case wont mind changing at Chesterfield, Sheffield or Nottingham to extend their journey.

 

[me123]

and in either case wont mind changing at Chesterfield, Sheffield or Nottingham to extend their journey.

They won't like this; people in general seem to have a problem when it comes to changing trains; especially when the train used to call there and does pass through the station.

 

[Aureol]

They won't like this; people in general seem to have a problem when it comes to changing trains; especially when the train used to call there and does pass through the station.

Yep, half hour long waits for connections to a service which "used to" stop at Alfreton don't really take my fancy thanks...

 

[WillPS]

Maybe people wont be happy but these things do happen! Take Derby - Crewe for example - that used to run Derby - Nottingham and before that Derby - Skegness. That service was cut back for whatever reason and people just had to get used to changing at Derby (and Nottingham). People that use Langley Mill station are in exactly this position now.

EMT have said they consider this an intercity route (or words to that effect), but the fact is intercity routes can't stop at every small town on route.

I got on the first train out of Nottingham (to Liverpool) last week and it was lovely to not stop at Langley Mill and Alfreton.

That said it's not completely worldchanging, and if it doesn't shave anything notable off the journey time it's probably not worth it.

 

[Techniquest]

Like you said, you can't stop everywhere in sight, and that's how I view it with Alfreton and Langley Mill. Especially since they've got this new hourly Northern service. Especially if they only go to Chesterfield or Sheffield or Nottingham.:roll:

Certainly this service needs a train of a decent length and capacity, not single 158s or 170s.

 

[Aureol]

Like you said, you can't stop everywhere in sight, and that's how I view it with Alfreton and Langley Mill. Especially since they've got this new hourly Northern service. Especially if they only go to Chesterfield or Sheffield or Nottingham.:roll:

Certainly this service needs a train of a decent length and capacity, not single 158s or 170s.

Bugger off.
Do you live in Alfreton? No. How often do you use the service through Alfreton? Probably hardly ever.
Due to the sheer amount of passengers for Alfreton, we need a half hourly service. Cut Langley Mill out fine, but Alfreton still needs it. And that's what's happening, EMT are dropping Dronfield and Langley Mill.
Don't like it? Oh well, hard luck.

 

[WillPS]

Bugger off.
Do you live in Alfreton? No. How often do you use the service through Alfreton? Probably hardly ever.
Due to the sheer amount of passengers for Alfreton, we need a half hourly service. Cut Langley Mill out fine, but Alfreton still needs it. And that's what's happening, EMT are dropping Dronfield and Langley Mill.
Don't like it? Oh well, hard luck.

It's not completely out of the question that it's their intention to remove a few 'mirrored' stops from the line over time, using just Dronfield and Langley Mill to gauge public reaction.

The problem is that Alfreton station is used largely by people from Alfreton - not a junction like Birmingham or Sheffield where people are likely to change trains or catch another transport connection (tram or bus). Put into context, people who live in Kirkby-in-Ashfield rather than catch a regular bus to Alfreton and then catch a train to Sheffield prefer to get on the Robin Hood Line service to Worksop and catch a Northern train to Sheffield from what I've seen, even though this can be as much as an hour longer than the bus/train alternative! On the other hand, people who live in Hucknall would get the tram to Nottingham and a train to Sheffield.

I'd also argue that most people who live in Alfreton are using the service to get to either Nottingham or Sheffield, in which case they are just as adequetly served by Northern's new offering. It's probable that more find it useful being able to get to Leeds directly from Alfreton than Liverpool or Manchester.

You could say stations like Thetford should also then be removed because they are served by National Express services from Norwich to Ely, but the problem is Thetford's catchment is far larger than Alfreton's due to the relative sparsity of Norfolk.

 

[ashworth]

I think it is fantastic news that Alfreton is to have a half hourly service from December. I think the hourly Leeds-Nottingham service is perfectly adequate for Dronfield and Langley Mill but I think that Alfreton does has the potential to support a half hourly service.

Although Alfreton is still a well used station, with a large car park, it has been run down somewhat during recent years. When Alfreton used to enjoy a wide range of services to various destinations including London (2 hourly), Leeds, Norwich, Cambridge, Harwich, Liverpool, Blackpool, Carlisle, Glasgow, Edinburgh etc etc....., the car park used to be ful, queues at the ticket office, large numbers of long distance passengers and luggage on the platforms.
I say give it a chance for a year or two and see if it can be revived.

Alfreton does not just serve the town of Alfreton but a large urban area on the Nottinghamshire/Derbyshire border.
I live near Hucknall, on the Robin Hood Line and mostly drive to Alfreton or Chesterfield if I am travelling north. Driving to Alfreton or Chesterfield can knock nearly an hour off the journey time and save substantial amounts in fares!

My experiences of travelling to Sheffield via Worksop is that very few people from the Mansfield area make this journey because of the 45-50 minute wait at Worksop on the outward journey. Now that is a missed opportunity. I am sure that there would be large numbers of people who would travel from the Mansfield area to Sheffield if only there was a through service or at least decent reliable connections at Worksop. The journey from Mansfield to Sheffield can take up to 2 hours by train for a journey that is only about 45 minutes up the M1.