Liverpool Lime St remodelling

[Ianigsy]

May I ask how you work that out please? More convenient for what? Given that LSP is approx 5 miles away from Liverpool City Centre, not sure is that convenient.

If you live in, say, Formby or Maghull (which probably generate a fair few through business journeys to London), it's surely easier to have one change at South Parkway- which is after all designed as an interchange- and then a same platform connection for the Ormskirk and Kirkby lines than go through to Lime Street, take the Wirral Line one stop in the opposite direction to where you want to go, and change again.

Good to hear about more ticket machines going in- my experience of using Birkenhead North on a more or less monthly basis to visit family is that you invariably end up with about three or four people who just want to go to Liverpool waiting for the person who wants to book a return to Euston several days hence with reservations.

 

[roversfan2001]

Maybe it's what was used recently at Chorley for the temporary platform there, or at Leyland.

Off topic but I'm just curious when there were temporary platform structures at Leyland? There is a lot of unused platform at the south end of the station.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Off topic but I'm just curious when there were temporary platform structures at Leyland? There is a lot of unused platform at the south end of the station.

They extended the platforms southwards at Leyland when 6-car trains were used during the Farnworth tunnel works.
Chorley was during the rebuild/realignment of the Preston platform there, and was quite a long one.

 

[8A Rail]

If you live in, say, Formby or Maghull (which probably generate a fair few through business journeys to London), it's surely easier to have one change at South Parkway- which is after all designed as an interchange- and then a same platform connection for the Ormskirk and Kirkby lines than go through to Lime Street, take the Wirral Line one stop in the opposite direction to where you want to go, and change again. .................

Put that way, yes I see your point with regards to the "London" trains put sadly it will not happen once the "double" Lime St blockade is completed. "Virgin" I doubt would want an additional stop within a short distance of the city centre. However on the bright side, those same people could use LSP for "Other" destinations anyway.

 

[73001]

Put that way, yes I see your point with regards to the "London" trains put sadly it will not happen once the "double" Lime St blockade is completed. "Virgin" I doubt would want an additional stop within a short distance of the city centre. However on the bright side, those same people could use LSP for "Other" destinations anyway.

I use it if I'm ever travelling back to Aintree if I can. Much more convenient than travelling round the city centre. On outward trips though, usually to Manchester, I always use Lime St to guarantee a seat. It is a shame that it couldn't accommodate the London trains but as everything else seems to stop there it's a reasonable option for a lot of people.

 

[Skie]

If you live in, say, Formby or Maghull (which probably generate a fair few through business journeys to London), it's surely easier to have one change at South Parkway- which is after all designed as an interchange- and then a same platform connection for the Ormskirk and Kirkby lines than go through to Lime Street, take the Wirral Line one stop in the opposite direction to where you want to go, and change again.

Nobody in their right mind uses the Wirral line to get from Lime Street to Central. People with no knowledge of the city centre might, but a regular commuter will know it's better to just walk across the road. I'd wager it's fewer steps too, the Wirral line stations are deep! Moorfields is a mini excursion if you walk from the Northern Line platforms...

 

[Chester1]

Id be really interested to know the cost difference between the temporary platform extension and a permenant one. It would have been a useful feature to have for future engineering works and in the event of disruption. It would be better to terminate trains at South Parkway than Crewe, which I have seen several times.

 

[Birkonian]

There are ticket machines going in all over Merseyside, one recently installed at Edge Hill and other places, all manned stations as well.

But no doubt the local Merseyrail type which don't allow you to collect tickets purchased on the internet. Wirral has circa 20 stations and none allow ticket collection.

 

[rebmcr]

Virgin I doubt would want an additional stop within a short distance of the city centre.

It works for Stockport.

 

[takno]

As a matter of interest the quoted article from the Liverpool Echo said there would be direct services from Liverpool South Pwy to Scotland. Was that accurate, and if so how are they getting there?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

As a matter of interest the quoted article from the Liverpool Echo said there would be direct services from Liverpool South Pwy to Scotland. Was that accurate, and if so how are they getting there?

If you mean this article


http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...pool-south-parkway-platform-extended-13672725

It doesn't mention Parkway to Scotland but Lime street....

The work on Lime Street will mean the station can handle an extra three services an hour, including direct services to Scotland. It will be given longer platforms with more space for passengers, while overhead power lines will also be extended.

 

[Ianno87]

It works for Stockport.

But Runcorn already provides the equivalent function to Stockport for the Liverpools. Adding South Parkway as well as Runcorn won't generate much in the way of new business, as Runcorn would serve almost the same market at South Parkway would.

 

[Nean]

But Runcorn already provides the equivalent function to Stockport for the Liverpools. Adding South Parkway as well as Runcorn won't generate much in the way of new business, as Runcorn would serve almost the same market at South Parkway would.

Except Runcorn doesn't really have any interchange with Merseyrail or any lines other than the Halton curve.

 

[Ianno87]

Except Runcorn doesn't really have any interchange with Merseyrail or any lines other than the Halton curve.

Merseyrail interchange (albeit indirect from the Northern Line) is catered for at Lime St already. So South Parkway still doesn't really offer enough new connectivity to justify it as an additional stop)

 

[takno]

If you mean this article


http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...pool-south-parkway-platform-extended-13672725

It doesn't mention Parkway to Scotland but Lime street....

Thanks. I obviously read it too quickly and then ended up racking my brains trying to figure out how you'd get there from South Parkway...

 

[fowler9]

Merseyrail interchange (albeit indirect from the Northern Line) is catered for at Lime St already. So South Parkway still doesn't really offer enough new connectivity to justify it as an additional stop)

South Parkway offers a lot of one change connectivity for a lot of South Liverpool and parts of North Liverpool that could tempt some, also there is the airport. Still think it would be daft stopping Virgin Trains there though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The obvious problem that nobody has mentioned yet with South Parkway is that the platform extension is only on the down side. You could extend the other way but then you're halfway* to West Allerton!

*=hyperbole, I know

 

[notlob.divad]

The obvious problem that nobody has mentioned yet with South Parkway is that the platform extension is only on the down side. You could extend the other way but then you're halfway* to West Allerton!

*=hyperbole, I know

The even bigger problem is that the temporary extension is only on the Down Slow, whilst for a long term stop you would want them on the UP and Down Fast. Feasibly you could possibly swap the fast and slow lines over and have platforms 1/2 dedicated to the CLC and 3/4 dedicated to/from Ditton with some rationalisation of the tracks. It would also require major re-modelling at Wavertree Junction. The upcoming project would have been the perfect opportunity to fix the mess of junctions between Runcorn and Edge Hill, however I believe it is just a like for like re-signalling project which to me is a wasted oppurtunity.

 

[MarkyT]

South Parkway offers a lot of one change connectivity for a lot of South Liverpool and parts of North Liverpool that could tempt some, also there is the airport. Still think it would be daft stopping Virgin Trains there though.

But equally as a parkway it also provides a much better solution for those from a whole swathe of south and east Liverpool to access WCML and eventually HS2 expresses by car without having to get into the city centre first.

My suggestion is as attached. Divert dual voltage Merseyrail stock onto the WCML south pair via a new curve to call at Speke (old station site in lieue of Hunts Cross) and stations to Widnes South with option to extent electrification and service even further to Warrington BQ low level. Remove the WCML overbridge over the Merseyrail line and slew the fasts over to the west side of the formation towards Edge Hill, leaving the east pair for the CLC trains with intermediate platforms as appropriate for stopping services. That could provide room for platform extensions at the south end of Parkway station to suit longer express trains and greatly simplify junctions in the area. Clearly some work would also be required around Edge Hill to sort out trains for the final approach to Lime Street.

 

[Holly]

... It would also require major re-modelling at Wavertree Junction. The upcoming project would have been the perfect opportunity to fix the mess of junctions between Runcorn and Edge Hill, however I believe it is just a like for like re-signalling project which to me is a wasted oppurtunity.

Totally.
Using Liverpool South Parkway to replace Runcorn as the London train suburb stop would not only provide better rail and airport connections but it would dovetail well with the downgrading of the 1961 Runcorn-Widnes road bridge when the new road bridge ("The Mersey Gateway") opens.

Mind you, there is an argument for a new parkway station at Weaver junction instead to provide good Motorway access for all North Cheshire and hinterland car drivers.

 

[takno]

The upcoming project would have been the perfect opportunity to fix the mess of junctions between Runcorn and Edge Hill, however I believe it is just a like for like re-signalling project which to me is a wasted oppurtunity.

It's definitely true that these junctions are a mess, but there is a reasonable amount of logic in the move across the country to separate signalling from permanent way changes. Right now the signalling equipment is expensive to run and life-expired. The return on updating it is clear and easily demonstrated. In addition, when you come to make permanent way changes later, the comparative ease of changing the digital interlockings, and the better understanding of the signalling assets you will be working around makes that work quicker and much less risky.

It would be nice if overall blockade times could be reduced by doing both at once, but there's a good chance you'd just end up with longer, riskier blockades now, and with a much higher chance of the whole project getting canned because one part of it is suffering from big cost overruns.

 

[Holly]

...
My suggestion is as attached. Divert dual voltage Merseyrail stock onto the WCML south pair via a new curve to call at Speke (old station site in lieue of Hunts Cross) and stations to Widnes South with option to extent electrification and service even further to Warrington BQ low level. Remove the WCML overbridge over the Merseyrail line and slew the fasts over to the west side of the formation towards Edge Hill, leaving the east pair for the CLC trains with intermediate platforms as appropriate for stopping services. That could provide room for platform extensions at the south end of Parkway station to suit longer express trains and greatly simplify junctions in the area. Clearly some work would also be required around Edge Hill to sort out trains for the final approach to Lime Street.

That is an interesting idea!
It is not often enough that one gets an opportunity to improve matters by simplifying things.

 

[fowler9]

But equally as a parkway it also provides a much better solution for those from a whole swathe of south and east Liverpool to access WCML and eventually HS2 expresses by car without having to get into the city centre first.

My suggestion is as attached. Divert dual voltage Merseyrail stock onto the WCML south pair via a new curve to call at Speke (old station site in lieue of Hunts Cross) and stations to Widnes South with option to extent electrification and service even further to Warrington BQ low level. Remove the WCML overbridge over the Merseyrail line and slew the fasts over to the west side of the formation towards Edge Hill, leaving the east pair for the CLC trains with intermediate platforms as appropriate for stopping services. That could provide room for platform extensions at the south end of Parkway station to suit longer express trains and greatly simplify junctions in the area. Clearly some work would also be required around Edge Hill to sort out trains for the final approach to Lime Street.

That is a good idea but as I have said before I know that area extremely well and google maps makes that curve from the Northern Line to the WCML look a lot easier than it would actually be. Those buildings on Highbank Drive which back on to the the railway are 3 story maisonettes each with 6 large flats in (My grandparents lived in one of them) and some of them would have to go. You would probably have to knock down a couple of semi detached houses to.

 

[Ianno87]

Totally.
Using Liverpool South Parkway to replace Runcorn as the London train suburb stop would not only provide better rail and airport connections but it would dovetail well with the downgrading of the 1961 Runcorn-Widnes road bridge when the new road bridge ("The Mersey Gateway") opens.

Mind you, there is an argument for a new parkway station at Weaver junction instead to provide good Motorway access for all North Cheshire and hinterland car drivers.

Problem is the people of Runcorn (and north Cheshire, e.g. Frodsham, etc.) might have something to say about that! And you don't have *that* much else to keep up the frequency between Liverpool and Runcorn if the VTs/HS2s don't stop.

Not saying it's unworkable to replace Runcorn with South Parkway, but it has issues...

 

[MarkyT]

It's definitely true that these junctions are a mess, but there is a reasonable amount of logic in the move across the country to separate signalling from permanent way changes. Right now the signalling equipment is expensive to run and life-expired. The return on updating it is clear and easily demonstrated. In addition, when you come to make permanent way changes later, the comparative ease of changing the digital interlockings, and the better understanding of the signalling assets you will be working around makes that work quicker and much less risky.

It would be nice if overall blockade times could be reduced by doing both at once, but there's a good chance you'd just end up with longer, riskier blockades now, and with a much higher chance of the whole project getting canned because one part of it is suffering from big cost overruns.

Horses for courses I think. The right approach depends on the work. Sometimes you have to move junctions about for new build signalling compliance or just to keep existing functionality at renewal, so it makes sense to ensure any such changes fit in with new layouts planned in the foreseeable future. Equally you don't want to fully resignal a huge over complex layout only to massively simplify it shortly afterwards, wasting all those expensive SEUs. On the other hand, very large enhancement jobs like Reading had to completely resignal the former (comparatively simple) station area layout first so they could knock down the old panel and station interlocking relay room, which was where the new platforms were to be built. Other older remote interlockings under Reading's control along the Thames valley were left well alone at that stage and merely recontrolled to the new signalling centre. The station layout could then be sequentially modified over a large number of stages, much more easily and economically with the data based computer interlockings than would have been possible with the old relay kit.

 

[MarkyT]

That is a good idea but as I have said before I know that area extremely well and google maps makes that curve from the Northern Line to the WCML look a lot easier than it would actually be. Those buildings on Highbank Drive which back on to the the railway are 3 story maisonettes each with 6 large flats in (My grandparents lived in one of them) and some of them would have to go. You would probably have to knock down a couple of semi detached houses to.

I would first close the Merseyrail line from Parkway to Hunts Cross (following provision of suitable reversing facilities at Parkway), allowing the WCML bridge to be removed and the fast lines (red) to be slewed over. Now the new alignment could be created largely on the existing formation, built up as a ramp on the Merseyrail route and partly excavated into the existing embankment on the WCML route. There would be some land take by the curve into back gardens I but I think about a 250m radius might be possible without getting into demolition. The important factor is there would be no junctions on each line which I completely agree would require significant additional width and difficulty establishing levels and transitions and not be practical at all. Note the junction for the N-W curve from Parkway WCML to Garston FLT would likely have to be removed to match revised levels.

 

[fowler9]

I would first close the Merseyrail line from Parkway to Hunts Cross (following provision of suitable reversing facilities at Parkway), allowing the WCML bridge to be removed and the fast lines (red) to be slewed over. Now the new alignment could be created largely on the existing formation, built up as a ramp on the Merseyrail route and partly excavated into the existing embankment on the WCML route. There would be some land take by the curve into back gardens I but I think about a 250m radius might be possible without getting into demolition. The important factor is there would be no junctions on each line which I completely agree would require significant additional width and difficulty establishing levels and transitions and not be practical at all. Note the junction for the N-W curve from Parkway WCML to Garston FLT would likely have to be removed to match revised levels.

Well yeah, it is an interesting idea. It would be interesting to see it properly planned by some kind of civil engineer as I still suspect it would encroach on peoples property a lot more than you would think. You could say that it would narrow the WCML down to 2 tracks at that point but the slow lines through there aren't really used a hell of a lot.

 

[takno]

Horses for courses I think. The right approach depends on the work. Sometimes you have to move junctions about for new build signalling compliance or just to keep existing functionality at renewal, so it makes sense to ensure any such changes fit in with new layouts planned in the foreseeable future. Equally you don't want to fully resignal a huge over complex layout only to massively simplify it shortly afterwards, wasting all those expensive SEUs. On the other hand, very large enhancement jobs like Reading had to completely resignal the former (comparatively simple) station area layout first so they could knock down the old panel and station interlocking relay room, which was where the new platforms were to be built. Other older remote interlockings under Reading's control along the Thames valley were left well alone at that stage and merely recontrolled to the new signalling centre. The station layout could then be sequentially modified over a large number of stages, much more easily and economically with the data based computer interlockings than would have been possible with the old relay kit.

All makes sense - the replace as-is concept isn't always the simplest solution, particularly in the Reading case. My guess here though is that the layout probably wouldn't be changed to anything like that extent so you don't have a great deal of waste in units installed and quickly removed. The signalling system being replaced makes the old Reading panel look like the height of modern technology, and is almost certainly closer to complete life expiry. I'm no expert on it though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is the plan for the new Mersey Gateway road bridge still to introduce tolls for both the new and old bridges? If so, any changes to stopping WCML services would be contentious for Runcorn residents who would then have to drive to Parkway and pay the tolls... but then again with tolls introduced people from South Liverpool (who may have previously driven to Runcorn to catch trains to London) would rather have the opportunity to catch the same train at South Parkway and avoid said tolls. Stopping at both is probably not a great idea and it would be better to have a consistent service than to alternate between Runcorn and South Parkway.

Diverting the Merseyrail services to Warrington Bank Quay low-level (as suggested above) would seem preferable to the oft-proposed idea of extending them along the CLC to Warrington Central, IF there's a practical way of doing it.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Diverting the Merseyrail services to Warrington Bank Quay low-level (as suggested above) would seem preferable to the oft-proposed idea of extending them along the CLC to Warrington Central, IF there's a practical way of doing it.

Agree, if Freightliner were to close their Garston Terminal and move to Seaforth for example, it should be possible to restore the original route from Cressington Station to the WCML through the former terminal which would allow the Merseyrail trains to reach the WCML at the rear of the retail park and go to serve Warrington Central. This would all Merseyrail services to alternate between LSP and Hunt Cross or even Gatacre, as well as Warrington. It then opens the possibility of opening a station in the Speke area on the WCML nearer the airport and with trains running from Lime Street to Chester via the Halton Curve the prospects for reopening Ditton Station is far better.