Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham

[Killingworth]

I presume you mean the Castlefield Corridor (i.e. through Manchester Oxford Road)? If so, making the western final end to be Manchester Piccadilly - and the bay platforms at that - might help with reliability on a strategic level.

Also the CLC line is 85mph max, making the use of trains formed at least partly of 153s/156s a potential issue if pathed for a (90 mph) Class 158. The turnaround capability at Piccadilly could therefore be planned for, or used as at least a reserve option if 75mph stock has to be used.

Yes, slip of finger and now amended to Castlefield. However cutting the direct Sheffield -Liverpool link will be resisted in Sheffield. I can't speak for Liverpool.

The currently used stock is stop gap until cascades and new stock becomes available.

 

[Glenn1969]

Any cut will be resisted somewhere. But I accept a cut has to be made and suspect the EMR and TfW services will be high up the list to be changed

 

[talltim]

Really don’t understand why this isn’t a cross country service. I know there are historical reasons, but it’s really a regional express between major cities (that possibly stops in too many places)

 

[railfan100]

Why so awful?

For a journey like Cambridge to Manchester it would be 50 minutes on a non-stop EMU which will be an 8 or 12 car train, then one stop on the Underground or a reasonably easy 10-minute walk, followed by two hours on a 9 or 11 car Pendolino.

Compared to several hours on an overcrowded 2-car DMU I’d say going via London is pretty preferable.

With the connection time e.g being at the next terminal in good time at the capital I am not sure such a trip is much quicker via London. Especially people with fixed tickets will make sure they are there a good 20 mins before departure. Stations like Euston as well are such a mess with a tiny concourse and some services advertised minutes before departure. Rather than travel through London many people simply would just drive on East Anglia to North West trips. It seems to me like cutting this service suits the limitations of the TOC model rather than passengers.

 

[ashworth]

Any cut will be resisted somewhere. But I accept a cut has to be made and suspect the EMR and TfW services will be high up the list to be changed

If the EMR service from Norwich to Liverpool was to be cut back to Manchester Piccadilly, would it then be necessary to spilt the route at Nottingham? If running in and out of the main station at Manchester Piccadilly, rather than through to Liverpool, significantly improves reliability, surely a through Manchester to Norwich Service would be preferable to a Manchester to Nottingham.

 

[railfan100]

If the EMR service from Norwich to Liverpool was to be cut back to Manchester Piccadilly, would it then be necessary to spilt the route at Nottingham? If running in and out of the main station at Manchester Piccadilly, rather than through to Liverpool, significantly improves reliability, surely a through Manchester to Norwich Service would be preferable to a Manchester to Nottingham.

There are options to fix the Oxford Road bottleneck. Terminate at Piccadilly or even run from Stockport to Victoria then to Lime Street via St Helens..

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are options to fix the Oxford Road bottleneck. Terminate at Piccadilly or even run from Stockport to Victoria then to Lime Street via St Helens..

But then you're reducing the service on the CLC, which may not be appreciated (and if you stick something else on e.g. a 195, where do you send it?). Better would arguably be the original proposal of operating Liverpool to Nottingham using 6-car Class 185 formations - doors at thirds and long enough for a lack of overcrowding meaning fast boarding and alighting.

 

[Chester1]

If the EMR service from Norwich to Liverpool was to be cut back to Manchester Piccadilly, would it then be necessary to spilt the route at Nottingham? If running in and out of the main station at Manchester Piccadilly, rather than through to Liverpool, significantly improves reliability, surely a through Manchester to Norwich Service would be preferable to a Manchester to Nottingham.

Or cutting back the service could be delayed until the Hope Valley Upgrade gets done and a third express service can start. EMR Piccadilly to Norwich, TPE Airport to Cleethorpes and TPE or Northern Liverpool to Sheffield would be a decent mix.

 

[swt_passenger]

Really don’t understand why this isn’t a cross country service. I know there are historical reasons, but it’s really a regional express between major cities (that possibly stops in too many places)

The logical reason is that "Cross Country" has always been defined by its main routes all going through Birmingham New Street. Making every other regional express part of the same setup would probably lead to a completely unmanageable TOC, covering almost the whole country except main London routes.

 

[Maltazer]

My 82 year old mother in law with her bad knee certainly wouldn't want to go via London - she says even a change in Nottingham will put her off making the journey any more.

And then of course there's the price - £75 via London vs £25 direct (Warrington-Ely)

Not everyone has good health and deep pockets!

 

[43074]

Perhaps there is room for a fast service some day - but it would need to avoid Sheffield and skip many stops.

For example: Cambridge - Peterborough - ( - Leicester -) Nottingham - Chesterfield - Stockport - Manchester, and done - an hourly fast on top of the hourly splits.

Why? The current service is being split as there isn't much East West demand across Nottingham, how does that lead you to conclude more trains are needed?

 

[WesternLancer]

But these things are circular - slow journey over the longer distance so not much demand

I can never understand why (at least before DfT stopped pretending privatisation was about passenger choice) a TOC did not try at least one Brum Nottm service an hour that avoided reversing at Derby (ie over the Stenson line) and similarly one might think there was a market Nottm or Grantham to Manchester not reversing at Sheffield.

In both cases there are many people who drive who make such journeys and always happy to tell me the train is so slow and uncomfortable they are put off. It seems hard to believe there is not a market to be developed on such routes.

It always seems to me that the existing market is largely created by the service that is on offer....

 

[JonathanH]

But these things are circular - slow journey over the longer distance so not much demand

I can never understand why (at least before DfT stopped pretending privatisation was about passenger choice) a TOC did not try at least one Brum Nottm service an hour that avoided reversing at Derby (ie over the Stenson line) and similarly one might think there was a market Nottm or Grantham to Manchester not reversing at Sheffield.

In both cases there are many people who drive who make such journeys and always happy to tell me the train is so slow and uncomfortable they are put off. It seems hard to believe there is not a market to be developed on such routes.

It always seems to me that the existing market is largely created by the service that is on offer....

Probably because both routes need subsidy to run the existing trains and an open access operator looking at the cut-off routes realises that they would not make any money on them.

 

[WesternLancer]

Probably because both routes need subsidy to run the existing trains and an open access operator looking at the cut-off routes realises that they would not make any money on them.

Indeed - but at least in the early private years it might have been that an innovative TOC would have tried it to see if there was a market to create.

 

[JonathanH]

Indeed - but at least in the early private years it might have been that an innovative TOC would have tried it to see if there was a market to create.

Well yes, but the fact that Central Trains tried to run from Birmingham to Matlock rather than Birmingham to Nottingham via Castle Donington implies which route they thought was more lucrative. Similarly, missing out Sheffield between Nottingham and Manchester saves some time but misses a major traffic objective.

 

[duffield]

But these things are circular - slow journey over the longer distance so not much demand

I can never understand why (at least before DfT stopped pretending privatisation was about passenger choice) a TOC did not try at least one Brum Nottm service an hour that avoided reversing at Derby (ie over the Stenson line) and similarly one might think there was a market Nottm or Grantham to Manchester not reversing at Sheffield.

In both cases there are many people who drive who make such journeys and always happy to tell me the train is so slow and uncomfortable they are put off. It seems hard to believe there is not a market to be developed on such routes.

It always seems to me that the existing market is largely created by the service that is on offer....

An extra hourly service from Nottingham to Birmingham bypassing Derby may make sense (possibly terminating at Moor Street); there would still be 4tph from Derby to Birmingham.
Services from Nottingham to Manchester bypassing Sheffield makes no sense due to the lack of capacity between Sheffield and Manchester on the Hope valley line, because they would have to displace and reduce Sheffield to Manchester capacity.

 

[Ianno87]

But these things are circular - slow journey over the longer distance so not much demand

I can never understand why (at least before DfT stopped pretending privatisation was about passenger choice) a TOC did not try at least one Brum Nottm service an hour that avoided reversing at Derby (ie over the Stenson line) and similarly one might think there was a market Nottm or Grantham to Manchester not reversing at Sheffield.
.

In the Liverpool-Nottingham example, you couldn't realistically divert via Dore curve to avoid Sheffield unless 2tph fast were also maintained between Manchester and Sheffield, and Sheffield and Nottingham, by other services.

Which is
-Starting to become a lot of trains flying around everywhere, and
-If you could path them, Shefield is still a decent market worth diverting to serve.

 

[Ianno87]

Why so awful?

For a journey like Cambridge to Manchester it would be 50 minutes on a non-stop EMU which will be an 8 or 12 car train, then one stop on the Underground or a reasonably easy 10-minute walk, followed by two hours on a 9 or 11 car Pendolino.

Compared to several hours on an overcrowded 2-car DMU I’d say going via London is pretty preferable.

Most people don't in fact like making multiple hour journeys on low-facility DMUs with no opportunities to stretch legs. People are often happy to change on long journeys as an opportunity for a leg stretch and a coffee.

 

[WesternLancer]

Most people don't in fact like making multiple hour journeys on low-facility DMUs with no opportunities to stretch legs. People are often happy to change on long journeys as an opportunity for a leg stretch and a coffee.

not if they have got much luggage! Leg stretch opps would be provided by a bit more comfortable train interiors, a matter abandoned in pursuit of a sardine strategy.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

With regard to comments about missing Sheffield, for a period shortly after class 158s were introduced on Hope Valley services there were some through trains between Leicester and Manchester via Derby which did just that; didn't last for long, but on the one time I made a return trip to Manchester from Derby on it, the train was about 25% full.

Afraid I can't remember if it went via Stockport or New Mills,

 

[Bletchleyite]

not if they have got much luggage! Leg stretch opps would be provided by a bit more comfortable train interiors, a matter abandoned in pursuit of a sardine strategy.

Even with the nicest interior I want a break from DMU travel after an hour or two, they rattle your ears.

 

[WesternLancer]

With regard to comments about missing Sheffield, for a period shortly after class 158s were introduced on Hope Valley services there were some through trains between Leicester and Manchester via Derby which did just that; didn't last for long, but on the one time I made a return trip to Manchester from Derby on it, the train was about 25% full.

Afraid I can't remember if it went via Stockport or New Mills,

Surely you are thinking of project Rio? - an alt option to WCML during upgrade period. Are you saying there was also a 158 Leicester - Derby - Manchester service in early 90s too?

 

[WesternLancer]

Even with the nicest interior I want a break from DMU travel after an hour or two, they rattle your ears.

Same here, but that would have been no issue for many of the people I have sat with on Liverpool to east mids over the years.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Surely you are thinking of project Rio? - an alt option to WCML during upgrade period. Are you saying there was also a 158 Leicester - Derby - Manchester service in early 90s too?

There were still a couple of RR Central services that travelled from Nottingham/Derby back then that went via Dore South avoiding Sheffield. Did it myself on a class 156 from Nottingham to Stockport I recall.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Surely you are thinking of project Rio? - an alt option to WCML during upgrade period. Are you saying there was also a 158 Leicester - Derby - Manchester service in early 90s too?

Yes; must have been at least 10 years before Project Rio because I'm talking BR Regional Railways days.

I know why I went to Manchester on the occasion and I used it and who I was with, so the best guess I can give regarding a date is 1992/3; I don't know how many services there were each day, but the times of the service I used was convenient to get to Manchester for a meeting (in Trafford Park) to start late morning, and return late afternoon. But the service didn't operate for long - perhaps just one timetable period?

 

[edwin_m]

There were still a couple of RR Central services that travelled from Nottingham/Derby back then that went via Dore South avoiding Sheffield. Did it myself on a class 156 from Nottingham to Stockport I recall.

Yes; must have been at least 10 years before Project Rio because I'm talking BR Regional Railways days.

I know why I went to Manchester on the occasion and I used it and who I was with, so the best guess I can give regarding a date is 1992/3; I don't know how many services there were each day, but the times of the service I used was convenient to get to Manchester for a meeting (in Trafford Park) to start late morning, and return late afternoon. But the service didn't operate for long - perhaps just one timetable period?

When the 156s appeared in 1998 one of the services was an Ipswich to Blackpool via Derby and Dore South. Must have gone through Nottingham sometime between 0730 and 0800 as it was my commute to work in Derby. I don't remember any Regional Express between Leicester and Derby.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

There were still a couple of RR Central services that travelled from Nottingham/Derby back then that went via Dore South avoiding Sheffield. Did it myself on a class 156 from Nottingham to Stockport I recall.

I'm talking a few years later. When RR first introduced the NW England-East Anglia service with 156s there were multiple destinations at either end, and services between Nottingham and Chesterfield alternated between the Erewash Valley and Derby - I've got a photo of a Liverpool service formed of a 156 taken at Derby in about 1986; however, this was later and I'm sure that by the time I made the journey all Manchester - Nottingham's went via the Erewash. It was also one of the first times I'd been on a 158.

Regarding the multiple destinations at either end, these included Sheringham; it seemed quite strange to see a modern DMU go along behind the Shire Horse Centre in West Runton instead of the usual mix of Met-Cams or Cravens

 

[Killingworth]

Yes; must have been at least 10 years before Project Rio because I'm talking BR Regional Railways days.

I know why I went to Manchester on the occasion and I used it and who I was with, so the best guess I can give regarding a date is 1992/3; I don't know how many services there were each day, but the times of the service I used was convenient to get to Manchester for a meeting (in Trafford Park) to start late morning, and return late afternoon. But the service didn't operate for long - perhaps just one timetable period?

I have in front of me the May 1989 timetable Table 56, Nottingham and Derby - Sheffield.

6.58 Derby, 7.39 Sheffield, Piccadilly 8.43 through service with trolley service, reservations available.

7.58 Nottingham, 8.18 Derby, 8.43 Chesterfield, 9.43 Piccadilly, Express service, trolley, bookable. That went round the Dore curve.

8.30 Leicester, 9.05 Nottingham, 9.26 Langley Mill (!), 9.33 Alfreton & Mansfield Parkway, 9.46 Chesterfield, 10.03 Sheffield, 11.02 Piccadilly, Blackpool North 12.20 (Table 49) Restaurant car as well as all the rest.

There were more direct trains between the Midlands and Manchester, most from Derby via Sheffield and from Nottingham via the Dore curve, but I haven't time to type it all up.

However, in those days the MML was quieter and the Hope Valley line didn't have an hourly stopping service and 2 tph fasts. The double tracking through Dore, and on the Dore curve, had only just been lifted. Railways were still perceived to be in decline, although in truth the pendulum was starting to swing back.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes; must have been at least 10 years before Project Rio because I'm talking BR Regional Railways days.

I know why I went to Manchester on the occasion and I used it and who I was with, so the best guess I can give regarding a date is 1992/3; I don't know how many services there were each day, but the times of the service I used was convenient to get to Manchester for a meeting (in Trafford Park) to start late morning, and return late afternoon. But the service didn't operate for long - perhaps just one timetable period?

Interesting - thanks for the recollection!

 

[grumpyoldman01]

When the 156s appeared in 1998 one of the services was an Ipswich to Blackpool via Derby and Dore South. Must have gone through Nottingham sometime between 0730 and 0800 as it was my commute to work in Derby. I don't remember any Regional Express between Leicester and Derby.

I'll have to make a trip to the NRM and check their timetables! I'm pretty sure they did start/finish at Leicester.

Regarding Ipswich - Derby, there was a return Derby - Ipswich service when the 150/1s first arrived at Etches Park; I used it on a summer afternoon back from Ipswich, but I can't remember if it went north of Derby