Liverpool to Norwich services to end at December 2021 timetable change

[LOL The Irony]

Well this is something to be added to the bucket list.

 

[JOHNR150]

Class 156 units date from 1987-89 and the 158 1989-1992 so not really fair to compare. They have covered many millions of miles.

Norwich/Ely - Sheffield/Manchester always does well and is a traffic flow that will be disrupted by this service splitting. As for the Liverpool to Norwich journey being so much quicker via London, a quick look on a booking engine for the 31st August. 10:47 ex Liverpool Lime Street via London to Norwich arrive 15:48 for £63.00 (Total time 5 hours 1 minute) or the direct train 10:52 ex Liverpool Lime Street arrives Norwich 16:13 for £45.90 (Total time 5 hours 21 minutes). So it's 20 minutes quicker, costs more and if you have heavy bags requires you to leave your seat, drag your bags around the underground and onto the next train. So the "It's a lot quicker via London" argument doesn't really have a leg to stand on.

I have a BR timetable from 1988 that advertises the Class 156 on East Anglia to the North West services that states 'save the stress of connecting in London' clearly the service has many benefits and at times the Blackpool North to Harwich and Liverpool to Great Yarmouth services were that busy that 6 and 8 car DMU services have operated under BR. Maybe nothing has been learned in this country whilst other countries build on the success of the railway infrastructure.

 

[Chester1]

I have a BR timetable from 1988 that advertises the Class 156 on East Anglia to the North West services that states 'save the stress of connecting in London' clearly the service has many benefits and at times the Blackpool North to Harwich and Liverpool to Great Yarmouth services were that busy that 6 and 8 car DMU services have operated under BR. Maybe nothing has been learned in this country whilst other countries build on the success of the railway infrastructure.

I would be surprised if the number of foot passengers on Harwich ferries have not dropped considerably in the last 30 years with the rise of budget airlines and Eurostar. Just because something was popular 30 years ago does not mean this country is has made a mistake by cancelling it.

Norwich to Nottingham is the baseline and it looks like bidders will be encouraged expand on that, just not using the Hope Valley, Manchester or Liverpool. Crewe-Derby-Nottingham-Norwich or Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham-Norwich may be possible which would provide different connections. Links to East Anglia are nice for Liverpool and Manchester but they are of low importance compared to improving journey times, connections and capacity within the north.

 

[JOHNR150]

I would be surprised if the number of foot passengers on Harwich ferries have not dropped considerably in the last 30 years with the rise of budget airlines and Eurostar. Just because something was popular 30 years ago does not mean this country is has made a mistake by cancelling it.

Norwich to Nottingham is the baseline and it looks like bidders will be encouraged expand on that, just not using the Hope Valley, Manchester or Liverpool. Crewe-Derby-Nottingham-Norwich or Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham-Norwich may be possible which would provide different connections. Links to East Anglia are nice for Liverpool and Manchester but they are of low importance compared to improving journey times, connections and capacity within the north.

You are right lets forget the past and just run Norwich to Nottingham services, as many of the traditional railway men have left the industry (in the UK at least) Can you direct me to a DFT petition where I can sign to support this? Passengers can change at Nottingham likely to an overweight Class 185 that will operate less than Sprinter speeds how they operated in the 1980's, another success of the DFT\private rigged system.

 

[s'land]

While I'm certainly not in a position to dispute your assessment of the ability of the "man from the SRA" nevertheless the reference to Liverpool as a "declining city" was factually accurate at that time, notwithstanding the successes enjoyed by its football team(s) or local music groups. Indeed I once followed up reports about the population declines of the likes of Rotherham and Sunderland with an exploration of the website of the Office for National Statistics. There I found that the population of both the City of Liverpool and the wider Merseyside region had been in continuous decline from the early 1930s until about 10 years ago when the numbers finally bottomed out, and are now enjoying small increases. Nevertheless the current population is barely 60% of what it once was.

As such it was certainly fair to say that in broader economic terms Liverpool was not somewhere likely to generate growth in long-distance passenger numbers. It also suffers, as does Hull, from being a coastal city which reduces the size of its natural hinterland. And some parts of that hinterland have attractive alternatives to travel via Liverpool, such as much of the Wirral via Chester, or Southport/St Helens via Wigan. Though in the case of the latter Advance ticket quotas are nearly all via Liverpool which demonstrates where the excess capacity currently lies. I would also point out that the Preston route also suffered at the hands of the SRA with the similar loss of any services going south beyond Birmingham.

What is necessary now is for the various "powers that be" in the region to promote themselves more widely and generate more interest throughout the country in visiting for leisure purposes: succeed in that and the ability to justify restoration of through links will become much easier. Services to Scotland are in the pipeline already and the signs are promising for Cardiff.

Sunderland's population is climbing again, in the next 10 years it's expected to get back to just under the 300,000 mark.

 

[Chester1]

You are right lets forget the past and just run Norwich to Nottingham services, as many of the traditional railway men have left the industry (in the UK at least) Can you direct me to a DFT petition where I can sign to support this? Passengers can change at Nottingham likely to an overweight Class 185 that will operate less than Sprinter speeds how they operated in the 1980's, another success of the DFT\private rigged system.

I think my response made it clear that I was hopeful of alternative extensions west or north of Norwich and I certainly don't support EMT using 185s!

 

[BR_Nick1980]

This is all about Grayling/Dft finding something for the 185 fleet at Ardwick to do. They even acknowledge that in the consultation 65% wanted the Liverpool-Norwich to stay as it is, so I don’t think it’s about improving the service for users.
Places such as Chinley, Widnes, Liverpool South Parkway are only 4 car Platforms, could the 185’s be reformed into 4 car and 2 car sets ?

185's have SDO so the shorter platforms aren't a problem.
What I cannot understand is why they couldn't use 2x 3 car 185's and continue past Nottingham, splitting at Ely - 1 set onto Norwich, the other onto Cambridge/Stansted Airport. This way all parties will be happy - a through service still and the extra capacity West of Nottingham.

 

[chubs]

Maybe nothing has been learned in this country whilst other countries build on the success of the railway infrastructure.

I would be very angry if long trains were being sent to Harwich and Gt Yarmouth. Harwich has been in continual decline as a passenger port for many years now. Nobody in their right mind wants to go to Gt Yarmouth.

 

[chubs]

185's have SDO so the shorter platforms aren't a problem.
What I cannot understand is why they couldn't use 2x 3 car 185's and continue past Nottingham, splitting at Ely - 1 set onto Norwich, the other onto Cambridge/Stansted Airport. This way all parties will be happy - a through service still and the extra capacity West of Nottingham.

Ely is a tiny station but does have quite a few trains every hour, surely splitting and joining will create extra work and time. Then if one of the trains gets delayed in its journey the other has to wait blocking subsequent services, or it goes ahead and you have a stranded train. You're just adding complexity and delay into a system that works as is.

The change between the Norwich - Liverpool and Birmingham - Stansted service at Ely really isn't that bad.

 

[edwin_m]

As several people have pointed out, 185s aren't viable east of Peterborough as they can't use the numerous Sprinter differential speeds so would have a much slower journey. Nobody seems very clear whether sorting this would be a matter of paperwork or require actual physical work on the track.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Until "Senior Traffic Commissioner" Beverley Bell insisted on a significant reduction in the number of operating licences held by the big groups for no other reason than that she didn't like the idea.

Shame such a great old company name was lost on a whim like that

 

[eastdyke]

I would be very angry if long trains were being sent to Harwich and Gt Yarmouth. Harwich has been in continual decline as a passenger port for many years now. Nobody in their right mind wants to go to Gt Yarmouth.

You will be 'very angry' this weekend then. Loco hauled IC sets to/from Yarmouth on Saturday and Sunday. Shock! Extra people expected in Yarmouth.
Saturday link:
https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/travel-information/service-alterations/great-yarmouth-air-show

Even if what you say were true you might support longer trains away from Yarmouth?

 

[eastdyke]

As several people have pointed out, 185s aren't viable east of Peterborough as they can't use the numerous Sprinter differential speeds so would have a much slower journey. Nobody seems very clear whether sorting this would be a matter of paperwork or require actual physical work on the track.

That might become just a little clearer, depending on the outcome of talks that will take place/have taken place about the question of Stadler bi-modes and sprinter differentials.
There may be considerable angst somewhere in and between DfT/GA and NR

 

[Steve Harris]

The "United Counties Omnibus Co Ltd" legal lettering persisted until as recent as about 5 years ago!

It's either Stagecoach in Northampton Ltd or Cambus Ltd, I forget which.

It's certainly not Stagecoach Cambus as they primarily operate in Cambridge and Peterborough. Stagecoach in Hunts operate around (well) Huntingdonshire district.

So, on your info I'm going with Stagecoach Northampton.

(I actually wonder if that is the only shire district in the country!)

Now, getting back on topic...

Class 156 from May 1988, sometimes the Harwich services were 6-car formation, Class 158 units started to take over in the early 90's although some of the destinations were cut Harwich from early 91. Before May 88 some services still did run through although typically loco hauled, from May 88 there were fairly frequent services.

Thank you for that, i certainly remember the loco hauls from Cambridge. I can remember when we went over to Sprinterisation and it used to be a Class 150 from Cambridge to Birmingham, before the 156's came in. But i had forgotten about the 156's going to Liverpool.

 

[chubs]

You will be 'very angry' this weekend then. Loco hauled IC sets to/from Yarmouth on Saturday and Sunday. Shock! Extra people expected in Yarmouth.
Saturday link:
https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/travel-information/service-alterations/great-yarmouth-air-show

Even if what you say were true you might support longer trains away from Yarmouth?

Are you seriously comparing a yearly event with regular day to day service?

Of course extra capacity is needed for something like that, as happens for many other events all over the country.

A tiny fraction of people want to go on holiday to Gt Yarmouth these days compared to 30+ years ago, and most of those realise what a terrible mistake they have made (see online reviews). Day to day commuter traffic is handled fine with the DMU's.

 

[eastdyke]

Are you seriously comparing a yearly event with regular day to day service?

I took what you said literally and added a 'biggrin' to my reply!
I know Yarmouth quite well, starting with caravan holidays as a child in the 1950's through having done work there in the 80's and early 90's and on to more recent visits.
Am well aware of the changed demographic circumstances with which Yarmouth has to cope.
There are still many visitors to Yarmouth and its area, mostly making use of their 'independent infernal combustion engines'.
Whilst there are still many good reasons to visit Yarmouth, I am not advocating reinstatement of the Easterling or the Holiday Camps Express or of any rail routes from Manchester, Bradford, Northampton, Derby, Sheffield, York, Walsall, Sunderland etc., all of which had direct services on summer Saturdays in the mid 50's.
[Actually, on reflection, a revived service from Northampton would be quite agreeable ]

 

[dk1]

Thank you for that, i certainly remember the loco hauls from Cambridge. I can remember when we went over to Sprinterisation and it used to be a Class 150 from Cambridge to Birmingham, before the 156's came in. But i had forgotten about the 156's going to Liverpool.

156 units where prioritised on the NW routes from East Anglia. 150s where used frequently on the Brum route even becoming a regular on the Lowestoft evening service. It was made worse when the entire 155 fleet was grounded & even block-ender & toiletless first gen WM units where draughted in to cover. The 06:40 ex-Norwich was a regular turn for these inappropriate units. The Rightline catering trolley would be transported in the brake for the lucky few that could get to it.

 

[frodshamfella]

To me this seems a backward step loosing a long distance service such as this, who really wants to change after all !

 

[JOHNR150]

I would be very angry if long trains were being sent to Harwich and Gt Yarmouth. Harwich has been in continual decline as a passenger port for many years now. Nobody in their right mind wants to go to Gt Yarmouth.

Class 156 units on the long distance services from Blackpool\Liverpool to Norwich were only extended to Yarmouth on Saturday's from my memory. Harwich was terminated in early 1991 as a direct service although there were good connections detailed to Harwich until at least 1992.

 

[dk1]

Class 156 units on the long distance services from Blackpool\Liverpool to Norwich were only extended to Yarmouth on Saturday's from my memory. Harwich was terminated in early 1991 as a direct service although there were good connections detailed to Harwich until at least 1992.

They ran through to Yarmouth & Lowestoft 7 days a week from the start. Times varied over time but the Yarmouth Liverpool started at 08:56 whilst the Lowestoft Birmingham departed 07:55. The 11:50 (SX) from Norwich also started Yarmouth 11:20 in the early 90s running non-stop via Acle in 24mins.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

One timetable, maybe 1988(?) saw a direct service from Liverpool Lime Street to Sheringham! The poor departure screens at Lime Street couldn't cope with all the small stations between Norwich and Sheringham, so only listed Cromer! I think it only lasted for one timetable period.

 

[Ianno87]

Ely is a tiny station but does have quite a few trains every hour, surely splitting and joining will create extra work and time. Then if one of the trains gets delayed in its journey the other has to wait blocking subsequent services, or it goes ahead and you have a stranded train. You're just adding complexity and delay into a system that works as is.

The change between the Norwich - Liverpool and Birmingham - Stansted service at Ely really isn't that bad.

It might be an easy change for passengers (it is, I agree), but the future East Midlands franchisee serving Cambridge is likely to be to be a money spinner irrespective of what passengers actually prefer to do - both stimulation of demand by offering a new direct service and the swing of ORCATS revenue allocation through provision of a direct service on a flow where there is already decent demand.

 

[Camden]

To me this seems a backward step loosing a long distance service such as this, who really wants to change after all !

The DfT and their various puppets in the north (or perhaps it is the other way around??...). It's considered easier to co-ordinate the services around a central theme, of their choosing, when its a smaller number of operators who are restricted to the area. The theme doesn't revolve around providing better services to either Liverpool or Norwich.

 

[Dannys]

Bit late to the discussion, but to me, the best solution would be to divert the service away from Sheffield via the current freight only chord at Dore. This would shave around 20 minutes off the Liverpool-Norwich journey, and by removing the Manchester-Sheffield traffic on the train would likely mean that, for the most part, a single Cl158 would suffice for most journeys. The northern connect Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham retains the connection between Sheffield and Nottingham.

I would then move the current Northern Sheffield>Hull northern fasts over the TPE - and create a clockface half-hourly Manchester-Sheffield-Doncaster service, with 1 to Cleethorpes, and one to Hull the Yorkshire coast per hour, all operated by Cl185's. At the western end, one would run through to Liverpool (Ideally Cleethorpes), with the other running through the Manchester Airport.

By spreading the Doncaster-Manchester traffic flow across 2 trains, and the EMT service now missing Sheffield, should mean less overcrowding between Sheffield and Manchester, as there would be fewer through passengers per train.

 

[frodshamfella]

Bit late to the discussion, but to me, the best solution would be to divert the service away from Sheffield via the current freight only chord at Dore. This would shave around 20 minutes off the Liverpool-Norwich journey, and by removing the Manchester-Sheffield traffic on the train would likely mean that, for the most part, a single Cl158 would suffice for most journeys. The northern connect Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham retains the connection between Sheffield and Nottingham.

I would then move the current Northern Sheffield>Hull northern fasts over the TPE - and create a clockface half-hourly Manchester-Sheffield-Doncaster service, with 1 to Cleethorpes, and one to Hull the Yorkshire coast per hour, all operated by Cl185's. At the western end, one would run through to Liverpool (Ideally Cleethorpes), with the other running through the Manchester Airport.

By spreading the Doncaster-Manchester traffic flow across 2 trains, and the EMT service now missing Sheffield, should mean less overcrowding between Sheffield and Manchester, as there would be fewer through passengers per train.

Good Idea, i've caught this train from Widnes to get to Norwich and its already full & standing.

 

[edwin_m]

I think the powers that be in the North will want any extra Hope Valley capacity to increase the frequency on Manchester-Sheffield before considering any shortening of journey time to the East Midlands. Diversion via Dore would also halve the Sheffield-Nottingham service and an extra train to compensate might be tricky once this route starts carrying HS2 services as well.

 

[northwichcat]

I think the powers that be in the North will want any extra Hope Valley capacity to increase the frequency on Manchester-Sheffield before considering any shortening of journey time to the East Midlands. Diversion via Dore would also halve the Sheffield-Nottingham service and an extra train to compensate might be tricky once this route starts carrying HS2 services as well.

Indeed. There's been calls for 3 fast/semi-fast Manchester to Sheffield services per hour for a few years.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Good Idea, i've caught this train from Widnes to get to Norwich and its already full & standing.

Yes, but that would be busy largely because of local traffic between Liverpool and Manchester, not because of what might be happening much further East.

 

[DanTrain]

Yes, but that would be busy largely because of local traffic between Liverpool and Manchester, not because of what might be happening much further East.

Exactly, it suffers as it carries local traffic from Liverpool to Manchester, Manchester to Sheffield and Sheffield to Nottingham.

However, this should be eased by TPE regularly running 5/6 cars on Liv-Man and Man-Sheff, especially if combined with a 3rd Hope Valley fast. If you then consider the generally higher fares on EMT, it should help ease congestion on this route (ideally it should be limited to people travelling longer distances not otherwise doable direct when the 3rd HV fast appears, but that wouldn’t happen). Equally, I think stopping this at Dore and Chinley is odd, it would make much more sense to stop 1TPE per hour at these when the new path arrives, allowing this to speed up times on the route.

 

[dk1]

Yes, but that would be busy largely because of local traffic between Liverpool and Manchester, not because of what might be happening much further East.

Not too long to stand. Always get seat after Oxford Road or Piccadilly.