OneTrackMinded
Member
Will, if successful, Labour plan to strip all current liveries and repaint everything into a similar scheme? What sort of logistics would have to be enabled to allow this to happen?
Last edited:
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Livery under Great British Railways
- Thread starter OneTrackMinded
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
I doubt that anything would be done immediately but I'm guessing that stock would be slowly rebranded when going through refresh works or as new trains join the network.
I think a consistent livery would push the messaging of a reformed and united system but also would think that there'd need to be some sort of differenciation between intercity, regional and commuter.
I think a consistent livery would push the messaging of a reformed and united system but also would think that there'd need to be some sort of differenciation between intercity, regional and commuter.
Consistent in terms of how they various types of services look and feel wherever you are in the country. So an intercity service would have the same livery and interior colours whether you are on the western or going up the east coast for example.
Sorry I’ve just bolded what you said here - ‘United system’.
So is the system one whole system (as in GBR) or a load of segregated systems (as in latter day sector used BR) that means that everyone has to fight for funds against each other as that doesn’t feel like a unified system.
Alternatively is it like SWT with an identical interior decor for each train but differing external liveries based on the same theme which identify a service segment but still has the feeling of one system.
Topological
Established Member
Stagecoach used a similar approach with East Midlands, differentiating the "Intercity" with white and the "Regional" with blue. Under that system Liverpool to Norwich was given white. All had the same red ends then yellow fronts.
South West Trains also had a red variant, but that needed a blue front to differentiate. I think they were the inner suburban "metro" trains.
It is clear enough to me that these all belonged to the same operator, but there was differentiation by service.
Image is from: https://x.com/VinPink2/status/1750221203631964663
South West Trains also had a red variant, but that needed a blue front to differentiate. I think they were the inner suburban "metro" trains.
It is clear enough to me that these all belonged to the same operator, but there was differentiation by service.
Image is from: https://x.com/VinPink2/status/1750221203631964663
Yes that’s exactly how I’d do it if you have to have different liveries for different service groups, at least the liveries feel like they all belong to the same company. If you are just going to splash any old non harmonised colour scheme on different service levels and worse still as suggested different interior colour schemes then it just makes it look like the same old hot potch un-coordinated system which we have now.Stagecoach used a similar approach with East Midlands, differentiating the "Intercity" with white and the "Regional" with blue. Under that system Liverpool to Norwich was given white. All had the same red ends then yellow fronts.
South West Trains also had a red variant, but that needed a blue front to differentiate. I think they were the inner suburban "metro" trains.
It is clear enough to me that these all belonged to the same operator, but there was differentiation by service.
Image is from: https://x.com/VinPink2/status/1750221203631964663
Although I'd personally opt for a single colour scheme applied appropriately to each bit of rolling stock, I think the South West Trains approach could work too. I don't think you'd even need that many colour differences because of the use of red, white and blue also matching the flag and GBR logo. I'd even stick with the original variants of red for urban and commuter, blue for regional, and white for intercity.
Topological
Established Member
I am not sure it is that risky to have limited numbers of liveries.
At Cardiff the dominant liveries are TfW (which is essentially suburban and regional combined) and GWR (which is basically Intercity). There is an hourly CrossCountry but labelling that regional would not cause too many issues.
Move down to the South West and somewhere like Exeter presently just sees GWR (All 3 roles) and CrossCounty (Intercity). There you would see a better segregation when dividing by type.
Although currently you could conclude a CrossCountry train will take you to Birmingham* at both locations, everything else comes with permutations beyond the colour of the train. You cannot assume GWR takes you to London* for example. (* We assume that the public know which direction is which, since both companies have destinations in the opposite direction as well, e.g. Plymouth at Exeter, or Swansea at Cardiff)
At Cardiff the dominant liveries are TfW (which is essentially suburban and regional combined) and GWR (which is basically Intercity). There is an hourly CrossCountry but labelling that regional would not cause too many issues.
Move down to the South West and somewhere like Exeter presently just sees GWR (All 3 roles) and CrossCounty (Intercity). There you would see a better segregation when dividing by type.
Although currently you could conclude a CrossCountry train will take you to Birmingham* at both locations, everything else comes with permutations beyond the colour of the train. You cannot assume GWR takes you to London* for example. (* We assume that the public know which direction is which, since both companies have destinations in the opposite direction as well, e.g. Plymouth at Exeter, or Swansea at Cardiff)
OneTrackMinded
Member
Another thing to keep in mind though is if they were to rebrand everything they'd also have to refit all the interiors on these trains (if they wanted it to be consistent). That involves new seat covers, pulling up carpets, repaint grab poles, etc
I do hope they go for something a bit more modern than that!Stagecoach used a similar approach with East Midlands, differentiating the "Intercity" with white and the "Regional" with blue. Under that system Liverpool to Norwich was given white. All had the same red ends then yellow fronts.
South West Trains also had a red variant, but that needed a blue front to differentiate. I think they were the inner suburban "metro" trains.
It is clear enough to me that these all belonged to the same operator, but there was differentiation by service.
Image is from: https://x.com/VinPink2/status/1750221203631964663
Topological
Established Member
I do not think anyone is advocating for the Stagecoach liveries (apart from maybe Stagecoach), rather the image reminds how Stagecoach varied a single theme according to the type of route the train usually operated.
CrossCountry are doing similar with the 170 vs Voyager differences, but that is still a work in progress.
I presume GBR would design something that reflected their image rather than that of Stagecoach.
Yet we managed perfectly well in the late 70’s and early 80’s with 1 livery when there was less information available at stations and online info didn’t exist.
irish_rail
On Moderation
One colour scheme nationwide also makes cascading of rolling stock easier , and in the long run will save money in costly vinyls and repaints when stuff gets re allocated. 175s for example, in theory if they go to GWR they will all need rebranding into green, however if we had one consistent standard throughout none of that would be necessary.
Simple, as stock comes up for period refresh just do it in the new style.
Bad example. The 175’s are in TfW colours which won’t come under GBR so would need re-doing anyway.
I’d honestly make this the livery for GBR, albeit with the orange stripe repainted in white or blue to symbolise the Union Jack.Stagecoach used a similar approach with East Midlands, differentiating the "Intercity" with white and the "Regional" with blue. Under that system Liverpool to Norwich was given white. All had the same red ends then yellow fronts.
South West Trains also had a red variant, but that needed a blue front to differentiate. I think they were the inner suburban "metro" trains.
It is clear enough to me that these all belonged to the same operator, but there was differentiation by service.
Image is from: https://x.com/VinPink2/status/1750221203631964663
Now I wonder if there are any Network Southeast liveried units still lurking around…
I honestly imagine that a revitalisation of Intercity Swallow is the most likely to return. Retro revivals are very popular, and IC was (and is) iconic. I expect with a return to nationalisation, they'll want to remind the general public about all the glamorous parts of BR (v1) and that might include the livery.
Rail Quest
Member
I imagine certain regions may demand some sort of unique branding for services operating in that area. I can imagine Manchester council fighting the corner for bee network branding on Manchester commuter services.
To be clear, I'm not stating this is either a good or bad thing, simply that I imagine it will come up when(/if) this is discussed.
To be clear, I'm not stating this is either a good or bad thing, simply that I imagine it will come up when(/if) this is discussed.
If they’re happy to fund the rebrand when the units are deployed and the debranding when they are redeployed, then sure. It’s their money…
Class450/4DES
Member
I came up with this on Discord using the Wikia diagrams for services that were originally on the NSE network. Going with my idea of SE absorbing other franchises to become a "spiritual" successor to NSE.
Here is the BR Class 450.
(If you want to edit this, let me know first. Please don't be disappointed if I am most likely going to stay no.)
Here is the BR Class 450.
(If you want to edit this, let me know first. Please don't be disappointed if I am most likely going to stay no.)
Attachments
Russel
Established Member
Reusing old BR liveries won't work, trains are a lot more styled and curvy that back in BR days, look at LNER, the livery they've put the Mk4 sets into looks really good, but it wouldn't sit well on the 800s at all.
Honestly, that's awful, the branding doesn't work and the big yellow square just looks messy.
Class450/4DES
Member
Little offended but okay.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
How sweet.
In all seriousness, do you really think branding something Southeastern SouthWest is anything other than rather confusing and contradictory?
Russel
Established Member
The contradictory geographical names just don't work, if you used GBR Southwest, GBR Thames and Chiltern, that would make more sense than SouthEastern Southwest etc...
As for the livery it's self, as I said, the yellow square looks messy, it's too big and clashes with the rest of the livery, a yellow line above the window is all that is needed.
No offence intended, it's just honest feedback.
Class450/4DES
Member
I just like NSE and I just want it to return in some form or another. I am not really good at liveries hence why I did it. NSE toothpaste is tricky.How sweet.
In all seriousness, do you really think branding something Southeastern SouthWest is anything other than rather confusing and contradictory?
Is there a single country with one livery for *everything*? As far as I'm aware, no. The idea an 800 will be in the same livery as a 377 on the West Coastway feels a bit nonsensical.
GBR will have control of English liveries only, so politically, InterCity services having a single English livery for services to Scotland and Wales is probably a no go - we're a 'union' and all that. It'll most likely be either done by Region (and IC) or sector - Suburban, Regional, Intercity - basically the German/French/Italian model.
There isn't an industry more in love with branding as much as the railways in this country, and the BR Corp Manual is held dearly as an icon; which gives me hope it'll be done well...
Sometimes you need a clean slate. You can't expect the railway to keep c2 flipping c - I don't think it can be anyway as a legal issue. There's too many brands, a unified railway doesn't need Southern, South West, Southeastern and Thameslink - it's all Southern, though I would expect Thameslink to be retained, if not, strengthened.
GBR will have control of English liveries only, so politically, InterCity services having a single English livery for services to Scotland and Wales is probably a no go - we're a 'union' and all that. It'll most likely be either done by Region (and IC) or sector - Suburban, Regional, Intercity - basically the German/French/Italian model.
There isn't an industry more in love with branding as much as the railways in this country, and the BR Corp Manual is held dearly as an icon; which gives me hope it'll be done well...
Sometimes you need a clean slate. You can't expect the railway to keep c2 flipping c - I don't think it can be anyway as a legal issue. There's too many brands, a unified railway doesn't need Southern, South West, Southeastern and Thameslink - it's all Southern, though I would expect Thameslink to be retained, if not, strengthened.
renegademaster
Established Member
Pretty much the Southeastern citybeam livery. Going to confuse lots of people at London Bridge for first few years if everything coming out of it looks like that
Government owned LNER does and nobody cares
Why not?