Livery under Great British Railways

[OneTrackMinded]

Will, if successful, Labour plan to strip all current liveries and repaint everything into a similar scheme? What sort of logistics would have to be enabled to allow this to happen?

My personal opinion on this - I think it would be a waste of time and resources, passengers are already used to the separate operators and I believe just utilising the current branding with new names (GBR Southern, GBR Northern, GBR South West, etc etc) and better ticketing would be much easier for both passengers and government. Additionally, these days with time between major maintenance work on trains (when they usually get repainted) the amount of time it would take to get everything switched over to new colours you'd undermine it completely. TLDR resources could be better spent elsewhere

 

[AF91]

I doubt that anything would be done immediately but I'm guessing that stock would be slowly rebranded when going through refresh works or as new trains join the network.

I think a consistent livery would push the messaging of a reformed and united system but also would think that there'd need to be some sort of differenciation between intercity, regional and commuter.

 

[Neptune]

I think a consistent livery would push the messaging of a reformed and united system

I agree wholeheartedly if GBR is the way we go.

but also would think that there'd need to be some sort of differenciation between intercity, regional and commuter.

So not consistent then?

 

[AF91]

Consistent in terms of how they various types of services look and feel wherever you are in the country. So an intercity service would have the same livery and interior colours whether you are on the western or going up the east coast for example.

 

[eldomtom2]

TfL is a good example of how to have a set of liveries that differentiate different services while still having a consistent feel.

 

[Neptune]

I think a consistent livery would push the messaging of a reformed and united system but also would think that there'd need to be some sort of differenciation between intercity, regional and commuter.

Sorry I’ve just bolded what you said here - ‘United system’.

So is the system one whole system (as in GBR) or a load of segregated systems (as in latter day sector used BR) that means that everyone has to fight for funds against each other as that doesn’t feel like a unified system.

Alternatively is it like SWT with an identical interior decor for each train but differing external liveries based on the same theme which identify a service segment but still has the feeling of one system.

 

[Topological]

Stagecoach used a similar approach with East Midlands, differentiating the "Intercity" with white and the "Regional" with blue. Under that system Liverpool to Norwich was given white. All had the same red ends then yellow fronts.

South West Trains also had a red variant, but that needed a blue front to differentiate. I think they were the inner suburban "metro" trains.

It is clear enough to me that these all belonged to the same operator, but there was differentiation by service.

Image is from: https://x.com/VinPink2/status/1750221203631964663

 

[Neptune]

Stagecoach used a similar approach with East Midlands, differentiating the "Intercity" with white and the "Regional" with blue. Under that system Liverpool to Norwich was given white. All had the same red ends then yellow fronts.

South West Trains also had a red variant, but that needed a blue front to differentiate. I think they were the inner suburban "metro" trains.

It is clear enough to me that these all belonged to the same operator, but there was differentiation by service.

Image is from: https://x.com/VinPink2/status/1750221203631964663

Yes that’s exactly how I’d do it if you have to have different liveries for different service groups, at least the liveries feel like they all belong to the same company. If you are just going to splash any old non harmonised colour scheme on different service levels and worse still as suggested different interior colour schemes then it just makes it look like the same old hot potch un-coordinated system which we have now.

 

[Sorcerer]

Although I'd personally opt for a single colour scheme applied appropriately to each bit of rolling stock, I think the South West Trains approach could work too. I don't think you'd even need that many colour differences because of the use of red, white and blue also matching the flag and GBR logo. I'd even stick with the original variants of red for urban and commuter, blue for regional, and white for intercity.

 

[Thirteen]

I think it'd be risky to have trains of all the same livery especially at stations which have different services.

Plus I can't imagine London Overground or the Elizabeth Line being rebranded.

 

[Topological]

I am not sure it is that risky to have limited numbers of liveries.

At Cardiff the dominant liveries are TfW (which is essentially suburban and regional combined) and GWR (which is basically Intercity). There is an hourly CrossCountry but labelling that regional would not cause too many issues.

Move down to the South West and somewhere like Exeter presently just sees GWR (All 3 roles) and CrossCounty (Intercity). There you would see a better segregation when dividing by type.

Although currently you could conclude a CrossCountry train will take you to Birmingham* at both locations, everything else comes with permutations beyond the colour of the train. You cannot assume GWR takes you to London* for example. (* We assume that the public know which direction is which, since both companies have destinations in the opposite direction as well, e.g. Plymouth at Exeter, or Swansea at Cardiff)

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Another thing to keep in mind though is if they were to rebrand everything they'd also have to refit all the interiors on these trains (if they wanted it to be consistent). That involves new seat covers, pulling up carpets, repaint grab poles, etc

Stagecoach used a similar approach with East Midlands, differentiating the "Intercity" with white and the "Regional" with blue. Under that system Liverpool to Norwich was given white. All had the same red ends then yellow fronts.

South West Trains also had a red variant, but that needed a blue front to differentiate. I think they were the inner suburban "metro" trains.

It is clear enough to me that these all belonged to the same operator, but there was differentiation by service.

Image is from: https://x.com/VinPink2/status/1750221203631964663

I do hope they go for something a bit more modern than that!

 

[Topological]

Another thing to keep in mind though is if they were to rebrand everything they'd also have to refit all the interiors on these trains (if they wanted it to be consistent). That involves new seat covers, pulling up carpets, repaint grab poles, etc


I do hope they go for something a bit more modern than that!

I do not think anyone is advocating for the Stagecoach liveries (apart from maybe Stagecoach), rather the image reminds how Stagecoach varied a single theme according to the type of route the train usually operated.

CrossCountry are doing similar with the 170 vs Voyager differences, but that is still a work in progress.

I presume GBR would design something that reflected their image rather than that of Stagecoach.

 

[Neptune]

I think it'd be risky to have trains of all the same livery especially at stations which have different services..

Yet we managed perfectly well in the late 70’s and early 80’s with 1 livery when there was less information available at stations and online info didn’t exist.

 

[irish_rail]

One colour scheme nationwide also makes cascading of rolling stock easier , and in the long run will save money in costly vinyls and repaints when stuff gets re allocated. 175s for example, in theory if they go to GWR they will all need rebranding into green, however if we had one consistent standard throughout none of that would be necessary.

 

[skyhigh]

Another thing to keep in mind though is if they were to rebrand everything they'd also have to refit all the interiors on these trains (if they wanted it to be consistent). That involves new seat covers, pulling up carpets, repaint grab poles, etc

Simple, as stock comes up for period refresh just do it in the new style.

 

[Neptune]

One colour scheme nationwide also makes cascading of rolling stock easier , and in the long run will save money in costly vinyls and repaints when stuff gets re allocated. 175s for example, in theory if they go to GWR they will all need rebranding into green, however if we had one consistent standard throughout none of that would be necessary.

Bad example. The 175’s are in TfW colours which won’t come under GBR so would need re-doing anyway.

 

[PTR 444]

Stagecoach used a similar approach with East Midlands, differentiating the "Intercity" with white and the "Regional" with blue. Under that system Liverpool to Norwich was given white. All had the same red ends then yellow fronts.

South West Trains also had a red variant, but that needed a blue front to differentiate. I think they were the inner suburban "metro" trains.

It is clear enough to me that these all belonged to the same operator, but there was differentiation by service.

Image is from: https://x.com/VinPink2/status/1750221203631964663

I’d honestly make this the livery for GBR, albeit with the orange stripe repainted in white or blue to symbolise the Union Jack.

Now I wonder if there are any Network Southeast liveried units still lurking around…

 

[vuzzeho]

I honestly imagine that a revitalisation of Intercity Swallow is the most likely to return. Retro revivals are very popular, and IC was (and is) iconic. I expect with a return to nationalisation, they'll want to remind the general public about all the glamorous parts of BR (v1) and that might include the livery.

 

[Rail Quest]

I imagine certain regions may demand some sort of unique branding for services operating in that area. I can imagine Manchester council fighting the corner for bee network branding on Manchester commuter services.

To be clear, I'm not stating this is either a good or bad thing, simply that I imagine it will come up when(/if) this is discussed.

 

[WAB]

I imagine certain regions may demand some sort of unique branding for services operating in that area. I can imagine Manchester council fighting the corner for bee network branding on Manchester commuter services.

To be clear, I'm not stating this is either a good or bad thing, simply that I imagine it will come up when(/if) this is discussed.

If they’re happy to fund the rebrand when the units are deployed and the debranding when they are redeployed, then sure. It’s their money…

 

[Class450/4DES]

I came up with this on Discord using the Wikia diagrams for services that were originally on the NSE network. Going with my idea of SE absorbing other franchises to become a "spiritual" successor to NSE.
Here is the BR Class 450.
(If you want to edit this, let me know first. Please don't be disappointed if I am most likely going to stay no.)

 

[Russel]

I honestly imagine that a revitalisation of Intercity Swallow is the most likely to return. Retro revivals are very popular, and IC was (and is) iconic. I expect with a return to nationalisation, they'll want to remind the general public about all the glamorous parts of BR (v1) and that might include the livery.

Reusing old BR liveries won't work, trains are a lot more styled and curvy that back in BR days, look at LNER, the livery they've put the Mk4 sets into looks really good, but it wouldn't sit well on the 800s at all.

I came up with this on Discord using the Wikia diagrams for services that were originally on the NSE network. Going with my idea of SE absorbing other franchises to become a "spiritual" successor to NSE.
Here is the BR Class 450.
(If you want to edit this, let me know first. Please don't be disappointed if I am most likely going to stay no.)

Honestly, that's awful, the branding doesn't work and the big yellow square just looks messy.

 

[Class450/4DES]

Reusing old BR liveries won't work, trains are a lot more styled and curvy that back in BR days, look at LNER, the livery they've put the Mk4 sets into looks really good, but it wouldn't sit well on the 800s at all.



Honestly, that's awful, the branding doesn't work and the big yellow square just looks messy.

Little offended but okay.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

(If you want to edit this, let me know first. Please don't be disappointed I am most likely going to stay no.)

How sweet.

In all seriousness, do you really think branding something Southeastern SouthWest is anything other than rather confusing and contradictory?

 

[Russel]

Little offended but okay.

The contradictory geographical names just don't work, if you used GBR Southwest, GBR Thames and Chiltern, that would make more sense than SouthEastern Southwest etc...

As for the livery it's self, as I said, the yellow square looks messy, it's too big and clashes with the rest of the livery, a yellow line above the window is all that is needed.

No offence intended, it's just honest feedback.

 

[Class450/4DES]

How sweet.

In all seriousness, do you really think branding something Southeastern SouthWest is anything other than rather confusing and contradictory?

I just like NSE and I just want it to return in some form or another. I am not really good at liveries hence why I did it. NSE toothpaste is tricky.

 

[Thirteen]

If local authorities end up running local metro services then you're not going to get full GBR livery anyway.

 

[LLivery]

Is there a single country with one livery for *everything*? As far as I'm aware, no. The idea an 800 will be in the same livery as a 377 on the West Coastway feels a bit nonsensical.

GBR will have control of English liveries only, so politically, InterCity services having a single English livery for services to Scotland and Wales is probably a no go - we're a 'union' and all that. It'll most likely be either done by Region (and IC) or sector - Suburban, Regional, Intercity - basically the German/French/Italian model.

There isn't an industry more in love with branding as much as the railways in this country, and the BR Corp Manual is held dearly as an icon; which gives me hope it'll be done well...

Will, if successful, Labour plan to strip all current liveries and repaint everything into a similar scheme? What sort of logistics would have to be enabled to allow this to happen?

My personal opinion on this - I think it would be a waste of time and resources, passengers are already used to the separate operators and I believe just utilising the current branding with new names (GBR Southern, GBR Northern, GBR South West, etc etc) and better ticketing would be much easier for both passengers and government. Additionally, these days with time between major maintenance work on trains (when they usually get repainted) the amount of time it would take to get everything switched over to new colours you'd undermine it completely. TLDR resources could be better spent elsewhere

Sometimes you need a clean slate. You can't expect the railway to keep c2 flipping c - I don't think it can be anyway as a legal issue. There's too many brands, a unified railway doesn't need Southern, South West, Southeastern and Thameslink - it's all Southern, though I would expect Thameslink to be retained, if not, strengthened.

 

[renegademaster]

I came up with this on Discord using the Wikia diagrams for services that were originally on the NSE network. Going with my idea of SE absorbing other franchises to become a "spiritual" successor to NSE.
Here is the BR Class 450.
(If you want to edit this, let me know first. Please don't be disappointed if I am most likely going to stay no.)

Pretty much the Southeastern citybeam livery. Going to confuse lots of people at London Bridge for first few years if everything coming out of it looks like that

InterCity services having a single English livery for services to Scotland and Wales

Government owned LNER does and nobody cares

You can't expect the railway to keep c2 flipping c

Why not?