LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals

59CosG95

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The latest issue of Rail Magazine has given the rough withdrawal dates for the Class 91s from LNER.
Approx. 25% are due to be withdrawn between June & September this year, with the remaining locos due to leave the ECML between January 2020 & Summer 2020 (approx.); it's fairly reasonable to assume that a corresponding number of Mk4 sets will be withdrawn around the same time.

As far as I can make out, the first Mk4 sets are due to be for TfW services, and potentially Alliance's GNWR Open Access services linking London Euston with Blackpool North. (Regarding the GNWR services, it isn't yet known whether 91s or ex-Anglia 90s are due to be used as motive power - the jury's still out on that one.)
 
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xotGD

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Last chance to get a 90 on an LNER service.

Get 'em while you can.

Would be interesting if Freightliner 90s were to turn up on these Blackpool turns.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Please can someone say when/if 91103 will be back in service from it’s wheelset change as it’s the only one of the thirty one locomotives I haven’t been on ahaha!
 

87electric

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I said farewells to 90020 and 029 today up and down on the Newarks. I’m abroad for a while now so will miss the changeover of traction.
 

Class455

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91 020 is expected to be the first official withdrawal, it's essentially a Christmas tree anyway and not likely to work again
The locos have to return to the lessor in a working condition so 91120 will be repaired surely before it goes off lease. 91103 is in the same state at Bounds Green but it will re-enter service. 91116 hasn't been seen for a while too.
The 90's will be the first to go, returning to DBS before the first Class 91's go
@59CosG95, perhaps it might be worth making a list once the Class 91's/MK4's start going off lease?
 

59CosG95

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The locos have to return to the lessor in a working condition so 91120 will be repaired surely before it goes off lease. 91103 is in the same state at Bounds Green but it will re-enter service. 91116 hasn't been seen for a while too.
@59CosG95, perhaps it might be worth making a list once the Class 91's/MK4's start going off lease?
Indeed; as I live fairly close to the ECML (and work within sight of it) I'll keep a note of the ones that are active as best I can.
 

59CosG95

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The locos have to return to the lessor in a working condition so 91120 will be repaired surely before it goes off lease. 91103 is in the same state at Bounds Green but it will re-enter service. 91116 hasn't been seen for a while too.
The 90's will be the first to go, returning to DBC before the first Class 91's go.
Exactly; LNER's priority will most likely be to return any hired traction & stock (read: any DBC 90s, Mk3 rake NL65, and EMT powercars 43061 & 43075) as a matter of course. The Hull Executive diagram has been discussed at length as being the diagram that the Azuma makes its debut on.
 

Class455

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Last chance to get a 90 on an LNER service.

Get 'em while you can.

Would be interesting if Freightliner 90s were to turn up on these Blackpool turns.
Surprisingly they're a lot quieter than the 91's! I watched 90039 departing Kings Cross on Monday and was amazed to hear how much quieter they were. Thankfully I've only had 91's with the MK4's (I say thankfully as the 90's just look out of place with the MK4 coaches in my opinion. Maybe if they were repainted in Virgin Trains East Coast livery then my opinion would be different but that's definitely not happening now!)
 

cactustwirly

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Exactly; LNER's priority will most likely be to return any hired traction & stock (read: any DBC 90s, Mk3 rake NL65, and EMT powercars 43061 & 43075) as a matter of course. The Hull Executive diagram has been discussed at length as being the diagram that the Azuma makes its debut on.
43061, 43075 and NL65 aren't hired and are leased to LNER directly.
Apparently it's on lease to LNER until the end of the year, so I expect it to be around, probably as a spare HST set
 
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gimmea50anyday

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No doubt NL65 will be the first HST to go as compared to the rest of the EC HST fleet it is non-standard. It has been suggested NL65's diagram will be the first to deploy azumas. Think if I recall correctly there is (was but may have been modified) a Driver/guard communication issue that the stock is incompatible with the locos. That may have been put right but is an example.of how it it not standard. It is also my understanding the same issue crops up whenever a NL power car substitutes an EC one on an EC set, but XC power cars also being EC based will work.
In a similar vein use of the 90s on MK4 not only has the lower 110mph speed limit but again but only when the loco is hauling there is a comms issue and flags and whistles have to be used for despatch and not bell buzzer codes. Operationally therefore it would make sense to ditch the 90s first although I wouldn't be surprised if one 90 was retained for "insurance" to stand in for a ropey 91 during the fleet changeover until good condition 91s become spare.

Internal rumour rumblings suggest 91120 is too far gone and with the run down of the fleet the loco may well be withdrawn as is and scrapped. Bear in mind this is third hand internal rumblings and not concrete fact. My source is pretty reliable to be fair, but then again thisbis the railway and that bloke from the pub knows a lot too! XD
 

59CosG95

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No doubt NL65 will be the first HST to go as compared to the rest of the EC HST fleet it is non-standard. It has been suggested NL65's diagram will be the first to deploy azumas. Think if I recall correctly there is (was but may have been modified) a Driver/guard communication issue that the stock is incompatible with the locos. That may have been put right but is an example.of how it it not standard. It is also my understanding the same issue crops up whenever a NL power car substitutes an EC one on an EC set, but XC power cars also being EC based will work.
In a similar vein use of the 90s on MK4 not only has the lower 110mph speed limit but again but only when the loco is hauling there is a comms issue and flags and whistles have to be used for despatch and not bell buzzer codes. Operationally therefore it would make sense to ditch the 90s first although I wouldn't be surprised if one 90 was retained for "insurance" to stand in for a ropey 91 during the fleet changeover until good condition 91s become spare.

Internal rumour rumblings suggest 91120 is too far gone and with the run down of the fleet the loco may well be withdrawn as is and scrapped. Bear in mind this is third hand internal rumblings and not concrete fact. My source is pretty reliable to be fair, but then again thisbis the railway and that bloke from the pub knows a lot too! XD
Things have changed a bit - the XC powercars are all now LA alloxed since the December 2018 TT change, so XC hire-ins look far less likely. ScotRail hire-ins are a possibility though...
Re the 91s, AFAIK the "hand back fully serviceable" caveat still stands (received during 91119's period of 'sick leave' when a friend undertook work experience at Bounds Green) - I will most likely have to check his source again.
 

Burgerstahl

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The locos have to return to the lessor in a working condition so 91120 will be repaired surely before it goes off lease. 91103 is in the same state at Bounds Green but it will re-enter service. 91116 hasn't been seen for a while too.
The 90's will be the first to go, returning to DBS before the first Class 91's go
@59CosG95, perhaps it might be worth making a list once the Class 91's/MK4's start going off lease?
I’m only speculating but, if there is no known future for the locos and an issue with parts availability, the lessor may have agreed to allow a couple to be used for spares and not be repaired.
 

59CosG95

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I’m only speculating but, if there is no known future for the locos and an issue with parts availability, the lessor may have agreed to allow a couple to be used for spares and not be repaired.
Indeed; with withdrawal imminent, that may well be the unfortunate case.
 

Class455

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This makes sense, I've read that the Azumas will be first entered onto Leeds services.
It's been confirmed. Most of the seat maps on Leeds to Kings Cross services after the May timetable change are showing Azuma's
 

DJH1971

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The latest issue of Rail Magazine has given the rough withdrawal dates for the Class 91s from LNER.
Approx. 25% are due to be withdrawn between June & September this year, with the remaining locos due to leave the ECML between January 2020 & Summer 2020 (approx.); it's fairly reasonable to assume that a corresponding number of Mk4 sets will be withdrawn around the same time.

As far as I can make out, the first Mk4 sets are due to be for TfW services, and potentially Alliance's GNWR Open Access services linking London Euston with Blackpool North. (Regarding the GNWR services, it isn't yet known whether 91s or ex-Anglia 90s are due to be used as motive power - the jury's still out on that one.)
Has there been anything more regarding the Blackpool to Euston services?
 

pt_mad

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, and potentially Alliance's GNWR Open Access services linking London Euston with Blackpool North. (Regarding the GNWR services, it isn't yet known whether 91s or ex-Anglia 90s are due to be used as motive power - the jury's still out on that one.)
Afaik Alliance's application was only for MK4/Class 91 sets and that's what was granted? Can't see them having any permission to run 90s as that's not what put in paths for. They are different locos with different rates of acceleration etc among other variables.

Has there been anything more regarding the Blackpool to Euston services?
I think it was announced they had the paths for September but if I recall a poster who is a planner somewhere posted that they had since been working on a December basis. However that was sometime back.
 

DJH1971

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Afaik Alliance's application was only for MK4/Class 91 sets and that's what was granted? Can't see them having any permission to run 90s as that's not what put in paths for. They are different locos with different rates of acceleration etc among other variables.


I think it was announced they had the paths for September but if I recall a poster who is a planner somewhere posted that they had since been working on a December basis. However that was sometime back.
Do you think they will actually see service?
 

pt_mad

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Do you think they will actually see service?
I have no idea and I'm not someone who is in a position to know. I'm just an observer. I mean it's a business under the Arriva umbrella and they got Grand Central up and running. Presumably they want to turn this successful application into revenue and for that they need to be up and running. It must have cost them a pretty penny so far.

Obviously they need the trains and it's only a guess but for September you'd think they'd need the (4?) MK/91/DVT train sets pretty sharpish. And then there's trained train crews.

The Planner maybe in a position to say when they would have to offer their timetable up to Network Rail for it to be finalised for December timetable change. I wouldn't have thought it was too far away. So perhaps December might be slipping away too now.

We have now learned by the news posted at the top of this thread that 25 percent of MK4 sets will supposedly be finished with at LNER by September. If 4 or 5 sets are all that's needed at GNWR then perhaps the leasing company may be in a position to agree a future lease on them soon? Pure hyperthetical guesswork though.
 

Darandio

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I have no idea and I'm not someone who is in a position to know. I'm just an observer. I mean it's a business under the Arriva umbrella and they got Grand Central up and running. Presumably they want to turn this successful application into revenue and for that they need to be up and running. It must have cost them a pretty penny so far.

Obviously they need the trains and it's only a guess but for September you'd think they'd need the (4?) MK/91/DVT train sets pretty sharpish. And then there's trained train crews.

The Planner maybe in a position to say when they would have to offer their timetable up to Network Rail for it to be finalised for December timetable change. I wouldn't have thought it was too far away. So perhaps December might be slipping away too now.

We have now learned by the news posted at the top of this thread that 25 percent of MK4 sets will supposedly be finished with at LNER by September. If 4 or 5 sets are all that's needed at GNWR then perhaps the leasing company may be in a position to agree a future lease on them soon? Pure hyperthetical guesswork though.
Couple all of that with Arriva being sold off, it's then entirely plausible that it will never happen.
 

Maude673

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I suspect that the Highland Chieftain will be the last diagram to switch over to 800s.
I read a rumour on here that virgin east coast were so concerned by the azuma’s poor performance over the highland mainline that they were considering keeping a few HSTs on longer term, especially given ScotRails pending intercity service upgrade. I guess this turned out to be nothing but incorrect speculation?
 

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