LNER Direct Award

[swt_passenger]

Presumably if the service diagram for the full timetable (Post #12) stands York starting and terminating trains will be rare anyway, probably only at beginning and end of the day?

 

[hexagon789]

Certainly from the 4/11th Sept. Nothing mentioned about plans further ahead

Ah, so it may not be how things materialise in future; we could still see the 225s dedicated to the improved Edinburgh fasts.

 

[hexagon789]

Confining them to London - Leeds/York simplifies the training requirements across LNER as only a few driver and guard depots will still need to sign them rather than basically every depot if they were staying on London - Edinburgh.

I saw that given as the reason, but then further information suggested the retention of 225s was going to be for Edinburgh services. Now we seem to be back to the previous option; if anything that makes it less clear whether this is or isn't what was always planned, a recent change or simply temporary.

 

[ainsworth74]

I saw that given as the reason, but then further information suggested the retention of 225s was going to be for Edinburgh services. Now we seem to be back to the previous option; if anything that makes it less clear whether this is or isn't what was always planned, a recent change or simply temporary.

As far as I'm aware the sequence has been that they were initially planned for the express Edinburgh services and that then changed to Leeds (with maybe the odd foray to York) but some people didn't quite believe that so the issue got muddied. Certainly my understanding (which could of course be wrong) has always been that first it was Edinburgh and then the plan was Leeds. No other flip flopping occurred.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Be interesting to see if this results in more 2 x 5-car operation to Newcastle / Edinburgh.

I'm sure I read somewhere that the baby Azumas were intended for shorter journeys on the southern half of the ECML - after all, they've no quiet(er) coach and aren't getting the luggage mods. The Lincoln services take up a number, but otherwise that's a fair number of sets that they're limiting to Leeds/York.

 

[800001]

Be interesting to see if this results in more 2 x 5-car operation to Newcastle / Edinburgh.

I'm sure I read somewhere that the baby Azumas were intended for shorter journeys on the southern half of the ECML - after all, they've no quiet(er) coach and aren't getting the luggage mods. The Lincoln services take up a number, but otherwise that's a fair number of sets that they're limiting to Leeds/York.

Shouldn't mean much more 2x5 sets running north of York, as there is currently quite a few 9 car Azuma work Leeds and York terminators.
Suppose it all depends how the Diagrams work out

 

[hexagon789]

As far as I'm aware the sequence has been that they were initially planned for the express Edinburgh services and that then changed to Leeds (with maybe the odd foray to York) but some people didn't quite believe that so the issue got muddied. Certainly my understanding (which could of course be wrong) has always been that first it was Edinburgh and then the plan was Leeds. No other flip flopping occurred.

So after the change to Leeds that was it, no reversion to Edinburgh and we are left with the situation as is?

 

[ainsworth74]

So after the change to Leeds that was it, no reversion to Edinburgh and we are left with the situation as is?

I'm not aware of there being one. There were a lot of people who didn't believe that the change to Leeds was likely and so made quite a bit of noise on the Forum about it. But I don't recall seeing anything from more official sources that once the decision to send them to Leeds was made it was changed back to Edinburgh.

 

[hexagon789]

I'm not aware of there being one. There were a lot of people who didn't believe that the change to Leeds was likely and so made quite a bit of noise on the Forum about it. But I don't recall seeing anything from more official sources that once the decision to send them to Leeds was made it was changed back to Edinburgh.

Thanks Ainsworth, the forum often results in more confusion than clarity sometimes because things get buried under innumerous posts, so thanks for clearing that up.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm guessing this means that they will continue to be maintained at Bounds Green

 

[hexagon789]

I'm guessing this means that they will continue to be maintained at Bounds Green

Can any of the others maintain 91s anyway?

 

[ainsworth74]

Thanks Ainsworth, the forum often results in more confusion than clarity sometimes because things get buried under innumerous posts, so thanks for clearing that up.

I should just add as a postscript that, as always, I stand open to correction!

I'm guessing this means that they will continue to be maintained at Bounds Green

Can any of the others maintain 91s anyway?

Not that I'm aware of. Obviously they've overnighted at Heaton, Neville Hill and Craigentinny off of various diagrams but Bounds Green has always been home for the Mk4s and 91s. So I'm somewhat surprised that @cactustwirly seems to have been thinking that a move was on the cards!

 

[cactustwirly]

I should just add as a postscript that, as always, I stand open to correction!




Not that I'm aware of. Obviously they've overnighted at Heaton, Neville Hill and Craigentinny off of various diagrams but Bounds Green has always been home for the Mk4s and 91s. So I'm somewhat surprised that @cactustwirly seems to have been thinking that a move was on the cards!

I had heard that they could move to Heaton or Neville Hill as Bounds Green was too full of Azumas?

 

[ainsworth74]

I had heard that they could move to Heaton or Neville Hill as Bounds Green was too full of Azumas?

Heard from where?

 

[hexagon789]

I should just add as a postscript that, as always, I stand open to correction!

Put it this way, I'm more inclined to accept what you say than twenty random posts in the relevant thread!

Not that I'm aware of. Obviously they've overnighted at Heaton, Neville Hill and Craigentinny off of various diagrams but Bounds Green has always been home for the Mk4s and 91s. So I'm somewhat surprised that @cactustwirly seems to have been thinking that a move was on the cards!

And they have the years of experience; to me it would seem a mistake to move them elsewhere

 

[Swimbar]

Put it this way, I'm more inclined to accept what you say than twenty random posts in the relevant thread!




And they have the years of experience; to me it would seem a mistake to move them elsewhere

I cannot see any sense in moving them to Heaton given that they are not going to work to Newcastle. Leeds to Heaton would have to be via a dog leg back to Doncaster.
Given their age it makes sense to only have them at either Neville Hill or Bounds Green overnight rather than the current situation where they overnight at 4 different depots.

 

[hexagon789]

I cannot see any sense in moving them to Heaton given that they are not going to work to Newcastle. Leeds to Heaton would have to be via a dog leg back to Doncaster.
Given their age it makes sense to only have them at either Neville Hill or Bounds Green overnight rather than the current situation where they overnight at 4 different depots.

Definitely not Heaton, Neville Hill would seem more likely but personally I doubt they would move them. Bounds Green is "used" to them and as they are getting on a bit it seems to me that knowledge of any particular eccentricities would be useful for maintenance rather than switching them to somewhere which while familiar with them doesn't possess that additional experience

 

[Tetchytyke]

I had heard that they could move to Heaton or Neville Hill as Bounds Green was too full of Azumas?

I thought the plan was for the Azumas to just overnight at Bounds Green, with the heavy duty maintenance taking place at the new depot at Doncaster? I would imagine the 91s would continue to overnight at Neville Hill or even Doncaster, but have the major work done in London.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Of course the Edinburgh fasts were going to be the retained 7 car 225 sets in that application, so couldn’t run through. Perhaps that’s up for change now, what with all the more recent posts about them probably being used for Leeds services. (noting that I haven’t a clue what’s likely to be happening...)

I think if LNER gets clearance to acquire more Azumas for the full 2021 service, we will know that it's business as usual with the plans.
But there are plenty of reasons why that might not not be straightforward at the moment, lack of revenue being the main one.

 

[Roast Veg]

For anyone who can't see it this is the overall plan by December 2021 (instead of May 2020 as in the document)
View attachment 80064

As far as I am aware LNER is still proceeding with these plans

Does this imply that the 1tp2h service to Harrogate will travel via Gascoigne Wood, or is it just a low quality diagram?

 

[ainsworth74]

Does this imply that the 1tp2h service to Harrogate will travel via Gascoigne Wood, or is it just a low quality diagram?

Yes it goes via Hambleton Junction and Garforth.

 

[Roast Veg]

Makes sense for avoiding a reversal at Leeds, but will it do the same in the up direction and cross the down ECML? It would almost be worth going via Selby West Jn to avoid doing so.

 

[YorksLad12]

I'm missing something here (which might be down to the poorly-realised diagram and the route lettering. Or I'm an idiot). Every two hours on Route F a bi-mode will run from London to Harrogate via Doncaster (Hambleton, Garforth) and Leeds? But will that be a five- or nine-carriage unit, if stopping at Horsforth? Or will it be a 10-carriage from London and split at Leeds? I didn't see them do that earlier this year, although it does make sense.

Guess I'll also have to pay more attention when reserving seats so I know which way I'm pointing when I leave Leeds

 

[Class 170101]

Makes sense for avoiding a reversal at Leeds, but will it do the same in the up direction and cross the down ECML? It would almost be worth going via Selby West Jn to avoid doing so.

Is the bit from Selby to Doncaster to be wired? I can't recall if that was confirmed or not?

 

[Swimbar]

Is the bit from Selby to Doncaster to be wired? I can't recall if that was confirmed or not?

I don't believe that has ever been suggested!

 

[Tyrion]

There will be no Mark 4s North of York from Aug/September.

DB Cargo have been informed of our intention to hand back Edinburgh and Newcastle Thunderbird Locos at this time, this means it is permanent.

The speculation regarding Neville Hill (NL) being main depot for them has an element of truth to it as maintenance capacity is an issue elsewhere.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

There will be no Mark 4s North of York from Aug/September.

DB Cargo have been informed of our intention to hand back Edinburgh and Newcastle Thunderbird Locos at this time, this means it is permanent.

The speculation regarding NH being main depot for them has an element of truth to it as maintenance capacity is an issue elsewhere.

If I'm honest that's a good thing - it means if / when a 225 has completely failed then the depot isn't that far away, the furthest being (if I'm right) Bounds Green in London near Kings Cross.

Going back to the subject of the LNER Direct Award, this should be a more permanent award - I may have concerns about opting for a 9-car Azuma then 5 coaches turn up but LNER are excellent at their job!

 

[IanXC]

The speculation regarding NH being main depot for them has an element of truth to it as maintenance capacity is an issue elsewhere.

Newton Heath would be quite an operational performance!

 

[Swimbar]

Newton Heath would be quite an operational performance!

I think you know what he means!!

 

[Wyrleybart]

Am I right in thinking BN and EC are now Hitachi owned ?
If this is the case it might make sense to move the remaining Mk4 sets to a facility which might be able to better focus on "legacy" stock