LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[yorkie]

How about calling them:
Flexible - booked only
Semi Flexible - Travel on any train within 70 mins of purchase (excluding peaks)
Anytime - Any service of the day

One of the main points of this excerise is to get away from the concept of "(off) peak".

To be fair, I think (Super) Off Peak is fine as a concept (the DfT clearly disagree) however the idea that you would have a 70 minute ticket that has additional exclusions for "peaks" would be the worst of all worlds!

What will be interesting is how many off peak users move to advance or semi-flex or stop travelling altogether.

LNER/DfT want more people to be on Advance as it enables them to shift demand from busier to less busy services; it's also a good earner when people take the "wrong" train.

Semi-flex is also probably seen as a nice earner for people who worry about the high cost of taking the "wrong" train and pay the extra, which they probably won't need, as an insurance policy.

DfT will want some people to stop travelling altogether as this reduces the burden on providing additional capacity. If prices were as cheap as they are in other countries, then there would be a huge capacity problem; our pricing is very much about pricing people off the railways.

Semi flex just guarantees flexiblity if you miss a service but not if you want to travel a few hours later say.

Exactly; it's like paying for an insurance policy up front which you probably won't need. But it's nowhere near as flexible/useful as (Super) Off Peak is/was.

I think this new system is fine although it does reduce some flexiblity but still doesn't reduce complication of fares.

Looks like DfT are succeeding in their aims to get public support for what many of us see as an awful scheme.

I suspect a few will move to anytime as well but most won't.

Agreed, most won't. But if just some do, they are earning a lot of extra money. If some don't travel then that's less additional capacity to cater for. Overall this is designed to benefit DfT/LNER. Not passengers.

How is that any simpler than an off-peak ticket?

For simple-minded people, the Ryanair style pricing is simple. But for anyone who has any intelligence or experience of rail, the concept of (Super) Off Peak isn't actually difficult to understand.

I agree with you that this isn't really any simpler, but simple-minded people will be hoodwinked by this.

Most passengers understand the limits of an off-peak ticket, who is going to research this new ticket.. I can see many people getting caught out by this..

I agree.

Also, that implies that the only walk up fare now will be anytime tickets.

Correct

What a way to penalise people with uncertain travel plans

That's how DfT want it.

The BRFares page is quite interesting. It reads like the idea is that you should use the LNER app and change your journey to use the flexibility, and it'll offer a £0 change if it meets the requirements but a chargeable change if it doesn't.

To be clear, you can change using the LNER app if you want, but there is no requirement to do so as the ticket is valid plus or minus 70 minutes, without any need to make a "change".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Am lead to believe that you can move this ‘flex’ ticket to later in the day via the App which also gives a seat reservation, and also via ticket office but with no reservation. Whether that incurs an additional cost I am unsure.

It's an Advance and can be changed like any Advance, but it appears that if the change is within the specifications there won't be a fee. However you don't *have* to change it in that way.

 

[Iskra]

You have no right to use a different TOC. Some guards will let you anyway, but I'm wary of relying on permission from anyone for anything unless it's in writing with some of the prosecution cases that have come up recently.

That’s true, but I’ve never had a request declined up to this point. Yes, it is always good to get things in writing, I did even once get told off when I had something in writing though (although they let me continue anyway and wouldn’t have had a leg to stand on if they’d tried to pursue it).

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the main points of this excerise is to get away from the concept of "(off) peak".

I think in particular they want to be able to charge more for the busiest times of week - Friday evening and Sunday afternoon. Super Off Peaks prevent that.

 

[miklcct]

How is that any simpler than an off-peak ticket? Most passengers understand the limits of an off-peak ticket, who is going to research this new ticket.. I can see many people getting caught out by this..

Also, that implies that the only walk up fare now will be anytime tickets. What a way to penalise people with uncertain travel plans

While I supported the previous iteration of LNER fare "simplication" (removing return tickets), I cannot say this at this stage when LNER removes off-peak ticket leaving Anytime ticket the only walk-up option.

By doing this, LNER has effectively becomes an airline on these routes and I will take an actual airline such as easyJet instead. What a great way to increase CO2 emissions.

The last time I travelled on LNER was on a Stirling - London super off-peak single with a break of journey in Edinburgh. Although this route is not included in the trial yet, if it is rolled out across the network, there is a significant chance that I will fly Edinburgh - London instead by forcing me to choose between either an inflexible ticket or an Anytime ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Can you give a specific example? I’ve never had a problem and have just taken the next train via a reasonable alternative route, after asking the guard. That’s just the same as what you’d do with an anytime ticket, the only difference being you may not need to ask on an anytime.

A potential example is where you plan to arrive into Euston at 11am; you book a ticket valid on West Midlands Trains but the train is cancelled and so you face a delay of an hour. Unless loads of disruption is occuring, the rail industry deems it as "tough" and you are not able to take Avanti. However what you can do is cancel the original fare (no admin fee) and re-book on Avanti, but this could be expensive.

But none of that is changing with this new structure at all.

Am lead to believe that you can move this ‘flex’ ticket to later in the day via the App which also gives a seat reservation, and also via ticket office but with no reservation. Whether that incurs an additional cost I am unsure.

Reservations are available to anyone through the app, or website or a ticket office. There is no charge for this and that applies regardless of the method of purchase, or the retailer used.

The only difference is that if you book through LNER and submit a change request through LNER, the original reservation can be cancelled, thus freeing up the seat for someone else to reserve it.

While I supported the previous iteration of LNER fare "simplication" (removing return tickets), I cannot say this at this stage when LNER removes off-peak ticket leaving Anytime ticket the only walk-up option.

By doing this, LNER has effectively becomes an airline on these routes and I will take an actual airline such as easyJet instead. What a great way to increase CO2 emissions.

DfT/LNER want the service to be seen like an airline; most passengers already see it as that. It's been a huge shift in the past 30 years or so.

The last time I travelled on LNER was on a Stirling - London super off-peak single with a break of journey in Edinburgh. Although this route is not included in the trial yet, if it is rolled out across the network, there is a significant chance that I will fly Edinburgh - London instead by forcing me to choose between either an inflexible ticket or an Anytime ticket.

They'd be happy for you to fly as trains between Scotland and London at the busiest times are very full. There is nowhere near sufficient capacity to cater for all the people who would use the train for this journey, if prices were reasonable.

I think in particular they want to be able to charge more for the busiest times of week - Friday evening and Sunday afternoon. Super Off Peaks prevent that.

Absolutely spot on!

 

[Bletchleyite]

While I supported the previous iteration of LNER fare "simplication" (removing return tickets), I cannot say this at this stage when LNER removes off-peak ticket leaving Anytime ticket the only walk-up option.

Same. I was fine with single fare pricing (but not the sneaky 20% increase) but I very much am not with this, even more so were it to start coming up on short distance journeys (I bet Northern would love it, they of the pointless short distance Advances). I do note the trial is on the very long distance trips where people tend to need less flexibility which is no doubt to ensure a specific outcome to it.

For London to Manchester it would be downright silly. For London to Birmingham it would be beyond ridiculous. (LNER has fewer comparable flows with those two, I suppose).

By doing this, LNER has effectively becomes an airline on these routes and I will take an actual airline such as easyJet instead. What a great way to increase CO2 emissions.

TBH I'm similarly minded. Air travel is of course non flexible anyway, but at least you get the speed in return for that (and it's usually cheaper too).

The last time I travelled on LNER was on a Stirling - London super off-peak single with a break of journey in Edinburgh. Although this route is not included in the trial yet, if it is rolled out across the network, there is a significant chance that I will fly Edinburgh - London instead by forcing me to choose between either an inflexible ticket or an Anytime ticket.

Yes, loss of break of journey would be significant for me (no way would I do north of Edinburgh to Kings Cross without stopping off somewhere for food and to stretch my legs), though I suppose you can always split Advances and they are often cheaper that way anyway.

The other thing it creates is that it means trains genuinely *can* sell out, as paying Anytime rates isn't on the agenda, thus unlike the Super Off Peak you can't just wait until you know when you plan to travel to book. That is a big black mark against them compared to the car. Were the Anytime reduced significantly then this might be less of an issue, though that isn't going to happen.

 

[RailWonderer]

This complication of fares is often used as an excuse to hike fares overall. Renaming the types of tickets and describing them simply and clearly at the ticket machines and providing a visual illustration would help hugely uncomplicate fares but of course they don't want to help simplify the wording of the current system, they want to change the system to their benefit. To be honest it could be a lot worse (keeping only advance and anytime) though will be interesting to follow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This complication of fares is often used as an excuse to hike fares overall. Renaming the types of tickets and describing them simply and clearly at the ticket machines and providing a visual illustration would help hugely uncomplicate fares but of course they don't want to help simplify the wording of the current system, they want to change the system to their benefit. To be honest it could be a lot worse (keeping only advance and anytime) though will be interesting to follow.

I think keeping only Advance and Anytime would be better because this extra level is downright confusing. Not that I support that either unless Anytime was reduced to the Super Off Peak level or close to it.

If you want to make Super Off Peak uncomplicated, apply a standardised simple restriction to it, e.g. "not before 0930 or between 1600-1900 Monday to Thursday" - XC did something similar. It does mean you can save through splits though

 

[Fuzzytop]

To be honest it could be a lot worse (keeping only advance and anytime) though will be interesting to follow.

But isn't that pretty much what it is? It's effectively Advance, Advance with insurance, and Anytime - with the Anytime remaining unaffordable for many.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But isn't that pretty much what it is? It's effectively Advance, Advance with insurance, and Anytime - with the Anytime remaining unaffordable for many.

With the "Advance with insurance" having complexity that Ryanair would be proud of!

 

[akm]

It looks like a flat £20 on the respective Advance ticket to start with (£13.20 for Railcard holders):

View attachment 150509
(Image of the LNER booking system for Tue 27 Feb, showing trains leaving London at Newcastle: 0900 priced at £60 Advance, £80 Flex, £192.80 Anytime; 0930 priced at £38.60 Advance, £58.60 Flex, £192.80 Anytime.)

However this means that the cheapest ticket valid on the 0900 train is in fact a Flex booked for the 0930. Not confusing at all!

What does 'valid' mean, in these Semi Flexible and Fully Flexible column headings?

Semi Flexible
Any valid LNER train, up to 70 mins before or after your booked journey

Fully Flexible
Any valid train up to 2 days from the date shown on ticket

 

[RailWonderer]

If you want to make Super Off Peak uncomplicated, apply a standardised simple restriction to it, e.g. "not before 0930 or between 1600-1900 Monday to Thursday" - XC did something similar. It does mean you can save through splits though

Exactly. Ultimately the government does not want to increase railway subsidy and increase capacity so they need to manage current capacity and prevent overcrowding so come up with revenue raiding schemes like this, it's a raid and deter strategy that seems to fit their rail policy at the moment.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Having done a spot of digging, it appears that the initial routes this applies to are Kings Cross - Newcastle/Berwick-upon-Tweed/Edinburgh (and vice versa.)

 

[py_megapixel]

I don't fully understand how this will work. There are two options I can see:

• Like an advance, but without the £10 amendment fee if the service you are changing to is within 70 mins of the original one - i.e. if you are booked on the 18:30 service you can travel on the 18:00, but it is subject to paying the difference in fare and to tickets being available on the 18:00. I agree that this is a terrible idea.
• Like an off-peak single but with the times of validity based on your booked service. If you are booked at 18:30 you can just step on any train between 17:20 and 19:40, no questions asked. I think this isn't ideal but I do think it is simpler to understand than the current confusing mess of off-peak time restrictions

I wonder if there is a marketing opportunity for Lumo here, noting that their anytime return is cheaper than LNER's off-peak option.

 

[Kite159]

Gets rid of the effective price cap offered by the super off-peak single so they can charge what they like at periods of expected high demand.

Want to travel with LNER from Edinburgh to London on bank holiday Monday (when the WCML is closed)? That will be £150+ please. London to Edinburgh on the Friday before a bank holiday weekend, £100+ please etc.

Or if Newcastle gets into a cup final at Wembley with a changeable finish time (extra time/penalties) where at the moment fans will buy an advance to London and a flexible ticket back will be left out of pocket unless they are smart and don't book to Newcastle itself.

LNER have always wanted to go down a booked train only route (just look at their behaviour during the Covid era) to limit negative headlines of trains being overcrowded and 'why do you sell more tickets than you have seats' from unorganised families who end up standing on a fast Edinburgh train etc. Just means passengers end up forking out more money pushing them back towards airlines.

 

[py_megapixel]

Having done a spot of digging, it appears that the initial routes this applies to are Kings Cross - Newcastle/Berwick-upon-Tweed/Edinburgh (and vice versa.)

Yes, those are mentioned in the press release

 

[Mike395]

My general thoughts will have to wait until I've got more time (I have lots of them!) - but one practical question this raises.... if I'm using e.g. a Scotrail TVM at Edinburgh or a GTR one at Kings Cross to buy a ticket to London/Edinburgh respectively, what options will it give me after 5th February? As far as I know, their ticket machines are not currently planner-based so would presumably only be able to offer me an Anytime ticket?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What does 'valid' mean, in these Semi Flexible and Fully Flexible column headings?

My general view would be that it means "on a Permitted Route", i.e. not going the wrong way, doubling back etc. However it does appear that brfares.com link above contains a load of unpublished restrictions that seem to block specific trains entirely for some reason I don't entirely understand. Presumably those are known busy trains where Advances wouldn't normally be released at all?

My general thoughts will have to wait until I've got more time (I have lots of them!) - but one practical question this raises.... if I'm using e.g. a Scotrail TVM at Edinburgh to buy a ticket to London, what options will it give me after 5th February? As far as I know, their ticket machines are not currently planner-based so would presumably only be able to offer me an Anytime ticket?

Correct. I suspect another aim of it is to move basically all sales online so even if they can't *close* booking offices they can reduce them down significantly e.g. to only one window with very limited opening hours, and save on TVM maintenance.

I don't fully understand how this will work. There are two options I can see:

• Like an advance, but without the £10 amendment fee if the service you are changing to is within 70 mins of the original one - i.e. if you are booked on the 18:30 service you can travel on the 18:00, but it is subject to paying the difference in fare and to tickets being available on the 18:00. I agree that this is a terrible idea.
• Like an off-peak single but with the times of validity based on your booked service. If you are booked at 18:30 you can just step on any train between 17:20 and 19:40, no questions asked. I think this isn't ideal but I do think it is simpler to understand than the current confusing mess of off-peak time restrictions

It's kind of between the two.

You can just board subject to the restrictions noted as per your second option. However it appears you can also do an amendment in the app and it'll charge you £0 (no fee nor fare difference) if it's within the timings specified.

Some people will be able to get good value from this (a bit like you sometimes can with easyJet's "flexible fares" - book the wrong flight, wait a day as I'm fairly sure they block doing it immediately, then change it to the more expensive flight for free) but one thing it isn't is simple. If off peak restrictions are too complex, standardising them isn't exactly hard - it has downsides, but that's just been done across a massive swathe of the South East for the purposes of contactless rollout without anyone really shouting about it, and XC did it years ago (all theirs are valid from 0930 only, and they've even managed to convince other TOCs to apply "only from 0930" to XC trains via their codes too).

I wonder if there is a marketing opportunity for Lumo here, noting that their anytime return is cheaper than LNER's off-peak option.

Lumo prefer to act like an airline.

 

[RailWonderer]

Correct. I suspect another aim of it is to move basically all sales online so even if they can't *close* booking offices they can reduce them down significantly e.g. to only one window with very limited opening hours, and save on TVM maintenance.

I can imagine a Swedish style system where there is one manned information desk (like at T central Stockholm) selling tickets to tourists and a few older travellers and that's it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can imagine a Swedish style system where there is one manned information desk (like at T central Stockholm) selling tickets to tourists and a few older travellers and that's it.

Yes, basically. Closure by stealth - that is, nobody's using it so why keep it open?

Cinemas did that very quickly by offering seat selection, creating a non-priced* advantage to prebook - they used to have multiple ticket windows, most of them now have none, with the refreshments kiosk also selling tickets for the tiny number of people who don't prebook.

* easyCinema tried Advance style pricing, but the film distributors wouldn't accept the idea (as they wanted a fairly heavy flat cut per viewer), so they needed to find other ways.

 

[Peter0124]

Will the Glasgow to London off-peak return still be valid via York and the ECML?

 

[W-on-Sea]

This seems like a terrible idea, quite the opposite of simplification, inevitably! LNER rapidly doing their utmost to overtake XC as the most customer-unfriendly TOC,,,,,

 

[800001]

This seems like a terrible idea, quite the opposite of simplification, inevitably! LNER rapidly doing their utmost to overtake XC as the most customer-unfriendly TOC,,,,,

LNER doing what the DFT want implementing.

 

[yorkie]

While the trial only applies to London to Newcastle/Berwick/Edinburgh, the "pathway" includes abolishing shorter distance Off Peak products too.

LNER have admitted this, as their communications director has published the "full simplification pathway"

https://twitter.com/stuartthomas/status/1747181611580342404

Today
@LNER
is launching a pioneering pilot - making ticket choices clearer & easier. We’re introducing a whole new type of ticket - allowing you to get on a train up to 70 mins before or after your original booking. We’re calling it Simpler Fares: https://lner.co.uk/news/lner-launches-pioneering-pilot-to-further-simplify-fares/

For anyone unable to view the image, the "pathway" document shows that all ticket types will be abolished except:

• Anytime
• 70-min Flex
• Advance

All only available as singles.

The document specifically shows the removal of Day products in the "pathway"; this isn't happening yet as there are no Day products on the flows which are part of the trial, but it would affect flows such as York to Doncaster, Durham to Newcastle, etc.

However Seasons, Travelcards, Rovers (and presumably Day Rangers) remain unchanged.

Will the Glasgow to London off-peak return still be valid via York and the ECML?

This has not changed however in future such a ticket is earmarked to be abolished.

This seems like a terrible idea, quite the opposite of simplification, inevitably! LNER rapidly doing their utmost to overtake XC as the most customer-unfriendly TOC,,,,,

LNER are doing the job they are asked to do by DfT and LNER are very happy to oblige. The DfT are very happy with the job LNER are doing. All boxes are being ticked!

My general thoughts will have to wait until I've got more time (I have lots of them!) - but one practical question this raises.... if I'm using e.g. a Scotrail TVM at Edinburgh or a GTR one at Kings Cross to buy a ticket to London/Edinburgh respectively, what options will it give me after 5th February? As far as I know, their ticket machines are not currently planner-based so would presumably only be able to offer me an Anytime ticket?

I suspect LNER will see it as the responsibility of the other TOCs to pay each of their providers the cost of providing customised options, and supporting the new non-standard fares. This clearly won't be done by 5th February and LNER will wash their hands of it, claiming it's not their problem. I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this point, but I suspect I won't be, sadly.

 

[MichaelAMW]

So, have I got this right:

-- LNER have claimed that single-leg pricing was a success, but provided no evidence to support this claim
-- Walk-up rail travel on those particular journeys has been transported back to 1950, with the added factors that tickets that used to be valid three days are now valid only one, in effect

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Presumably this also has GBR TT (Transition Team) written all over it?
ie including rail professionals.

 

[yorkie]

So, have I got this right:

-- LNER have claimed that single-leg pricing was a success, but provided no evidence to support this claim

Correct.

-- Walk-up rail travel on those particular journeys has been transported back to 1950, with the added factors that tickets that used to be valid three days are now valid only one, in effect

It's basically become priced like an Airline.

The sad thing is that simple minded people actually prefer Airline style pricing because the lack of flexibility is seen as "easier to understand" than the concept of an Off Peak Return. But people who are actually regular rail travellers find the concept of an Off Peak Return not that difficult. But really this is just an excuse!

Also, consider this: if passengers hold Off Peak products and take an Anytime train, what happens? An excess fare. But if passengers take the wrong train on an Advance, it'll be a whole new Anytime fare (on top of the fare they already paid for). And now, with Flex, many people will pay the £20 extra as an insurance policy in case they miss the train to avoid a new Anytime fare, but if you travel outside the +/- 70min window you will again be paying the Anytime on top!

 

[800001]

Presumably this also has GBR TT (Transition Team) written all over it?
ie including rail professionals.

Correct! I believe LNER Commercial Director is on secondment to GBR TT.

 

[Kite159]

Making things simpler by introducing a whole new type of quota controlled ticket type which will be confusing to the average rail user.

I can picture it now, bank holiday Monday at the end of August. If you want to use LNER from Edinburgh to London mid afternoon (say from 13;00 to 15;30) and don't know the workrounds (buying from Haymarket etc) they will want £150+ for an advance ticket etc