LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Fermiboson]

You shouldn't be in the galley, it's a staff only area. Do you mean the vestibule or buffet?

I meant the area behind the screen doors to the coach itself where the circular toilet is. Not sure what it’s called.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I meant the area behind the screen doors to the coach itself where the circular toilet is. Not sure what it’s called.

Ah, the vestibule. Yes, you're allowed there.

This sounds like a rogue member of staff, as even LNER themselves say that with the 70 minute ticket you can just board as long as you're within that window.

 

[Haywain]

so I stood in the galley

Having established that this wasn't the case, the reason for questioning this is that a galley is a food preparation area* and clearly should not be accessible to Joe Public.


*Yes, a galley could also be an ancient ship powered mainly by oars. It would be a surprise to find one on a train though!

 

[AdamWW]

Ah, the vestibule. Yes, you're allowed there.

This sounds like a rogue member of staff, as even LNER themselves say that with the 70 minute ticket you can just board as long as you're within that window.

Either the member of staff or the LNER web site is wrong:

https://www.lner.co.uk/support/faq/on-board/seating/seat-reservation-unavailable/

I can’t make a seat reservation. What should I do?
If all reservable seats have been taken, there are a number of unreserved seats in coach C in Standard and coaches M or E in First Class.

This means that if you don't have a seat reservation you'll still be able to travel in the unreserved part of the train. 

If all unreserved seats are taken, you may need to stand until a seat becomes available.

 

[YorkRailFan]

LNER is at the forefront of fares simplification for the UK Rail industry and we've delivered two significant reforms with the support of the Department for Transport and Great British Railways Transition Team: a successful pilot and expansion that saw the removal of return fares across most of our network, and most recently Simpler Fares, that aims to transform the fares structure making it easier to find the right fare.

Why change?

Our customers and non-customers alike tell us that the current fares structure is too complicated and that change needs to happen. Its complexity and the amount of change that needs to happen means that there is no overnight fix. It’s a continual programme of reform to make fares simpler and fairer, to encourage more people to choose rail.

On the East Coast, eight million people that could use the railway for leisure or business travel choose other modes of transport.

Rail Delivery Group Research has revealed that a main reason for choosing to fly or drive is the complicated fares structure. LNER’s programme of reform aims to simplify it and tackle the known pain points of complexity, flexibility, crowding and value for money – all reasons why people don’t choose rail.

After identifying the deterrents to rail travel that can be resolved by fares reform, we set to work on how to resolve them. The first step of the programme was Single Leg Pricing (SLP), expanded across most of our route in 2023 after a successful three-year pilot. SLP saw the removal of return fares, where all fares are priced on a single journey basis, enabling customers far greater flexibility to mix and match their fares and find better deals. It also removed instances where return fares are only £1 more than a single fare.

The expansion of SLP allowed for the next step of the programme and the biggest change to rail fares in the UK in 30 years - Simpler Fares - to really focus on changing rather than reducing the fares structure. The two-year Simpler Fares pilot includes journeys between London King’s Cross and Newcastle, London and Berwick-upon-Tweed and London and Edinburgh, for travel with LNER. Simpler Fares tackles complexity by removing outdated and complicated Off-Peak and Super-Off-Peak fares. Instead, journeys are priced dynamically, which will then smooth out demand for services over the course of the day reducing overcrowding and helping customers select less busy services.

The second part of Simpler Fares created a more modern type of flexibility with the introduction of a new fare – the 70min Flex. An industry first, the 70min Flex allows customers to travel on any train up to 70min before or after their originally booked train. Customers can either “flex” online or through the LNER app or just board the service they want and find a seat. This means that if your business meeting is running late there will be an opportunity to get a later train at no additional cost; or even better, the meeting finishes early, there will be an opportunity to get an earlier train home.

Both of the changes make fares simpler and means just three fares remain on these three journeys:

• Advance (Fixed) – the best value fare, booked in advance for a fixed journey with a guaranteed reserved seat for travel with LNER.
• ‘70min Flex’ (Semi-Flexible) – a new type of ticket offering customers the flexibility to travel on other LNER services, which can be 70 minutes before or after their original booked journey.
• Anytime (Fully-Flexible) – this ticket can be used at any time of day (but tends to be a more expensive ticket type).

These fares have been on sale since the January 16 2024 for travel from February 5, bringing benefits to customers by introducing opportunities for cheaper flexibility than previously with the introduction of the 70 Min Flex. As of February 5, the first day customers could travel on the 70min flex, 86 per cent of the total Advance availability is priced lower than the Super Off-Peak ticket on trains where the Super Off-Peak product was valid previously. This amounts to 513,000 tickets in the booking horizon up to May 31 2024.

Altering perceptions

A big part of the fares reform programme is to help customers choose the best fare for them, so they feel confident and fully informed about their decision. For example, there is a misperception that Anytime is now the only walk-up fare left with the removal of Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak fares. But this is not the case, Advance Fares are often available up to five minutes before departure, and in all cases, these will be cheaper than Anytime. Advance Fares also have the added benefit of a guaranteed seat.

A further benefit of the new 70min Flex is that it allows a change of journey (for a fee) if a customer has to travel more than 70min before or after the original booked train – so customers do not have to pay for a full price ticket once again.

The 70min Flex is also available during traditional “Peak times”, which means modern day flexibility for customers on lots of these trains where they would have otherwise been paying the maximum Anytime price.

These are real benefits for customers on those selected journeys and represents just what fare reform can do. These changes have been carefully thought through, and as part of the pilot we have agreed customer assurances to ensure value for money remains at the heart of our fares agenda. With that in mind, at least two thirds of all Standard Advance fares sold will be more than 50 per cent cheaper than the Standard Anytime.

Canvassing opinion

Fares reform doesn’t stop with Simpler Fares. Indeed, the pilot is two years, and we’ll use that time to listen and respond to customer feedback and make the necessary changes. In that respect, customer feedback is crucial to ensure Simpler Fares works for everyone.

We know that a change as big as this will take time to get used to and will mean a change in behaviour for some of our customers. Together we can ensure that Simpler Fares and the benefits it enables are felt by everyone.

LNER: Why we're reforming our fares

David Flesher, Commercial Director at LNER explains the reasoning behind its 'Simpler Fares' scheme, which some critics fear will push prices higher.

www.railmagazine.com

Yes I agree that ticketing needs reform, but look at Scotrail and TFL who are trialing the extension to remove peak fares and just use a standard off-peak fare. This measure is simply to increase revenue, LNER can't hide it, this article is just another piece of evidence. LNER's MD even praised TFL's trial of removing peak fares on Fridays, after LNER announced this. The 70 min flex should be extended to effectively be an all day round off-peak ticket, it's simple.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The reservations that LNER falsely claim are "required" in their timetable data can, however, sell out. This means it might prove necessary to force a convoluted itinerary avoiding LNER in order to buy a ticket.

Does Trainsplit (and by extention the forum's booking engine), in flexible ticket mode, show these 'sold out' / 'fully reserved' journeys?

No compliant accredited site will sell a ticket for a train marked compulsory reservations where none are available.

Thanks, yes I thought that was likely to be the case.

 

[wilbers]

Having established that this wasn't the case, the reason for questioning this is that a galley is a food preparation area* and clearly should not be accessible to Joe Public.


*Yes, a galley could also be an ancient ship powered mainly by oars. It would be a surprise to find one on a train though!

Its unlikely to be the opposite way round too, but there is a toy train in a galleon. Thought that would be something that when googled wouldn't exist.

Galleon Train Set

Ahoy me hearties! The Galleon Ship is a swashbuckling addition to any wooden train set. Your little one can watch the pirate train (sold separately) chug through the lower deck past the portholes and viewing hole. Then close up the wooden track pieces on each end of the ship and set sail to...

museumoflondonshop.co.uk

 

[Fermiboson]

It would certainly be something of a sight to see a Polish armoured train on an Ottoman galley.

 

[yorksrob]

LNER: Why we're reforming our fares

David Flesher, Commercial Director at LNER explains the reasoning behind its 'Simpler Fares' scheme, which some critics fear will push prices higher.

www.railmagazine.com

Yes I agree that ticketing needs reform, but look at Scotrail and TFL who are trialing the extension to remove peak fares and just use a standard off-peak fare. This measure is simply to increase revenue, LNER can't hide it, this article is just another piece of evidence. LNER's MD even praised TFL's trial of removing peak fares on Fridays, after LNER announced this. The 70 min flex should be extended to effectively be an all day round off-peak ticket, it's simple.

What an entertaining load of spin and flannel.

They're obviously doing a damage limitation exercise now that people are cottoning on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What an entertaining load of spin and flannel.

They're obviously doing a damage limitation exercise now that people are cottoning on.

I'd say some of that is past "spin" and into "dishonest". In particular the suggestion that Advances are better as they come with a guaranteed seat - so do Off Peaks at present due to LNER's fake compulsory reservations. (It also may not be true at all - I'm fairly sure LNER will sell Advances against counted places).

And no mention of the real reason - increased income.

 

[AdamWW]

What an entertaining load of spin and flannel.

They're obviously doing a damage limitation exercise now that people are cottoning on.

, at least two thirds of all Standard Advance fares sold will be more than 50 per cent cheaper than the Standard Anytime.

Ah so the unregulated fares will be linked to other (rather expensive) unregulated fares. So that's OK then.

And

Advance Fares are often available up to five minutes before departure,

Unlike those old fashioned off peak tickets that were always available on the trains they were valid on. I always found that very confusing.

This is all going to get more people on trains apparently. Personally, the one thing that will get me off trains is taking away the flexibilty I currently have.

And maybe someone can explain what the point of single leg pricing was if you then remove the ticket type that it applied to?

Oh yes and:

A further benefit of the new 70min Flex is that it allows a change of journey (for a fee) if a customer has to travel more than 70min before or after the original booked train – so customers do not have to pay for a full price ticket once again.

Isn't that already what Advances allow? Or are they saying you can pay a fee to travel on a later train even if you missed the last one in the window they are valid on?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And maybe someone can explain what the point of single leg pricing was if you then remove the ticket type that it applied to?

Goodness knows. But single leg pricing was what was needed to decomplicate, as what it meant was that a planner can always show you the cheapest ticket in each direction without the complexity of "you can only pick this one if you pick that one".

Once you've done that, it doesn't matter how complicated it is, really, because anyone who doesn't understand it can just use a journey planner and assume the ticket is valid only on the selected train, or go and ask a person if they want to use a different one.

 

[AdamWW]

And yes, I'm sure it'll hide a price increase - and would like to know (maybe a FoI is in order?) how Fares Regulation applies to it, or if it has been removed for these flows.

I think we know the answer now.

They have voluntarily agreed to regulate them by reference to the anytime prices...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think we know the answer now.

They have voluntarily agreed to regulate them by reference to the anytime prices...

So in effect a "fares basket" situation. Which doesn't stop them whacking up fares on Fridays of course!

(If it said "on any given train" that might be less unacceptable )

 

[AdamWW]

Goodness knows. But single leg pricing was what was needed to decomplicate, as what it meant was that a planner can always show you the cheapest ticket in each direction without the complexity of "you can only pick this one if you pick that one".

Once you've done that, it doesn't matter how complicated it is, really, because anyone who doesn't understand it can just use a journey planner and assume the ticket is valid only on the selected train, or go and ask a person if they want to use a different one.

Quite. It's almost as if this new scheme isn't actually about simplification at all.

For someone without access to a car but who can (or whose company can) afford the current off peak prices, taking away the current system of - at least at certain times of day - a fare which is regulated and cannot sell out is quite a big deal.

And just wait until there's disruption and suddenly all the advances and flex advances are pulled without notice.

It's all very well saying that advances will often be available just before departure, but if you can't rely on that how much use is it?

 

[yorksrob]

I'd say some of that is past "spin" and into "dishonest". In particular the suggestion that Advances are better as they come with a guaranteed seat - so do Off Peaks at present due to LNER's fake compulsory reservations. (It also may not be true at all - I'm fairly sure LNER will sell Advances against counted places).

And no mention of the real reason - increased income.

Indeed.

It's interesting that they are unable to provide any justification for removing off-peak fares. Just notes that some new products with vastly inferior terms and conditions might or might not be available at less than the ludicrously overpriced anytime fare.

But then we all know who are behind this nonsense.

 

[BRX]

What if they were to replace Anytime tickets with these 70 min flex ones, instead of replacing Off Peaks?

So you'd have Off Peak, 70 min flex and Advance. Fairly simple.

You don't lose the ability to travel relatively affordably, and flexibly, at a predictable price, at off peak times as you do now.

They could do their dynamic pricing on peak-time trains to rinse that market for as much revenue as they can get. But they'd be able to offer something that's got a useful amount of flexibility for that particular market, unlike the current choice between expensive (anytime) and inflexible (advance).

They could still use Advance tickets to fill up empty services with cheap seats as they wished. And could use 70 min flex to sell those same seats at a slightly higher price option.

I'd feel relatively comfortable with peak-time fares being capped and set by the market/competition, as long as there's always that off-peak backstop.

For someone without access to a car but who can (or whose company can) afford the current off peak prices, taking away the current system of - at least at certain times of day - a fare which is regulated and cannot sell out is quite a big deal.

It's a massive deal - a really fundamental change.

 

[AdamWW]

It's interesting that they are unable to provide any justification for removing off-peak fares. Just notes that some new products with vastly inferior terms and conditions might or might not be available at less than the ludicrously overpriced anytime fare.

No no, they did. Off peak tickets are outdated and complicated!

And (fairer point) they don't let them "smooth out demand" as well.

But is it really necessary to move to a quota based system in order to do a good enough job at demand smoothing? It's the easy way out, but one that makes life a lot more...dare I say...complicated for passengers, as you have to work out whether to commit yourself to a train even if you're not sure it's going to be the right time, or risk the quota running out and having to pay a fortune to get home. Keeping an eye on how many tickets are left at what price and deciding at what point you need to purchase doesn't seem quite a simple as just being able to buy a proper walk-up ticket.

Goodness knows. But single leg pricing was what was needed to decomplicate, as what it meant was that a planner can always show you the cheapest ticket in each direction without the complexity of "you can only pick this one if you pick that one".

I suppose there's some argument that +/-70 minutes is simpler to understand than when an off peak ticket is valid. But in this day and age it wouldn't exactly be hard to present a passenger with an off peak ticket with a list of departures around their originally planned time that they can and can't use....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose there's some argument that +/-70 minutes is simpler to understand than when an off peak ticket is valid. But in this day and age it wouldn't exactly be hard to present a passenger with an off peak ticket with a list of departures around their originally planned time that they can and can't use....

It'd also not be hard to standardise Off Peak times. XC did it years ago - all of theirs are "not before 0930" and they have even convinced other TOCs to put that in their codes on XC's behalf too, so it applies to very nearly all use of long distance Off Peak fares on XC whether set by them or not.

Of course an evening peak would be needed, but 1600-1900 is hardly complex either.

 

[AdamWW]

It's a massive deal - a really fundamental change.

But unfortunately one that only affects a minority of people.

And of course it's true that there's plenty of people who don't have access to a car and wouldn't be affected because rail travel at least with flexible tickets is beyond their means anyway.

It'd also not be hard to standardise Off Peak times. XC did it years ago - all of theirs are "not before 0930" and they have even convinced other TOCs to put that in their codes on XC's behalf too, so it applies to very nearly all use of long distance Off Peak fares on XC whether set by them or not.

Of course an evening peak would be needed, but 1600-1900 is hardly complex either.

But that would of course be going in the wrong direction in terms of "demand smoothing".

Of course there was a time when the idea was to match provision of seats to demand rather than the other way round, though I appreciate that's not so practical with a railway that's bursting at the seams at busy times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But unfortunately one that only affects a minority of people.

You reckon? It doesn't just affect the people who would purchase these fares before, it affects almost everyone as the ceiling on prices is shoved up. It hasn't yet, but it might even affect Lumo and Grand Central passengers if they as a result push their ceilings up.

The only people it doesn't affect are people who book months out to get the bargain basement fares - but these could even creep up too!

LNER's suggestion that only a small percentage of people buy these tickets is in itself correct, but misses the point, deliberately of course, of the capping effect these fares provided - and the effect of that is on everyone except those travelling at formerly peak times.

But that would of course be going in the wrong direction in terms of "demand smoothing".

Of course there was a time when the idea was to match provision of seats to demand rather than the other way round, though I appreciate that's not so practical with a railway that's bursting at the seams at busy times.

Now LNER are basically operating (as far as facing the public goes) with compulsory reservations, that no longer matters. If it's full, it's full. If it's popular, reserve early. Overcrowding is mostly caused by cancellations.

It's only really a smallish number of people who know there's no penalty for not having a reservation and thus they aren't really compulsory.

Plenty of railways the world over don't "demand smooth" and you don't have to do so, they just make it first come, first served. Now I'm not wholly supportive of compulsory reservations on a blanket basis, but BR certainly did it on specific peak trains that were known to be busy, and also on the 24th December and before some bank holidays. There are tools to handle it without pricing people off, in other words - that's just a preferred tool because it also increases income.

 

[AdamWW]

You reckon? It doesn't just affect the people who would purchase these fares before, it affects almost everyone as the ceiling on prices is shoved up. It hasn't yet, but it might even affect Lumo and Grand Central passengers if they as a result push their ceilings up.

The only people it doesn't affect are people who book months out to get the bargain basement fares - but these could even creep up too!

LNER's suggestion that only a small percentage of people buy these tickets is in itself correct, but misses the point, deliberately of course, of the capping effect these fares provided - and the effect of that is on everyone except those travelling at formerly peak times.

Well in the sense that if rail becomes unaffordable they just drive.

Without a car there often isn't any other practical option than the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well in the sense that if rail becomes unaffordable they just drive.

Without a car there often isn't any other practical option than the train.

For most longer journeys on LNER there's coach and plane. And Lumo or Grand Central. They've got quite a lot of competition, really.

 

[yorksrob]

No no, they did. Off peak tickets are outdated and complicated!

And (fairer point) they don't let them "smooth out demand" as well.

It comes back to a point I made earlier in the thread that I've seen no evidence that off-peak is responsible for packing out the trains as it is (its not as though they're dirt cheap to most people).

If they are having overcrowding at particular times, they could offer fewer AP instead, but that wouldn't enable them to remove the off-peak price cap.

 

[AdamWW]

For most longer journeys on LNER there's coach and plane. And Lumo or Grand Central. They've got quite a lot of competition, really.

They have but I believe they've already said they intend to apply this to all their flows and I think it would be dangerous to assume there is no intention for this "simplification" to become the norm across the whole UK rail network, where in many cases there's no practical alternative by coach, air or open access operator.

And neither coaches nor planes offer regulated fares that cannot sell out anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They have but I believe they've already said they intend to apply this to all their flows and I think it would be dangerous to assume there is no intention for this "simplification" to become the norm across the whole UK rail network

I think it very much is aimed to be the norm (primarily because it would allow an end to the annual fares round and its adverse publicity by fare increases being totally hidden as they are on the likes of Ryanair) and it needs to be stopped.

It is far, far worse in my book than the ticket office closures. If I had to choose between the two, the booking offices could go tomorrow. Though I can't help but think that's part of the game - far less need for booking offices if everyone books in advance online!

 

[Peakrider]

Making things simpler by introducing a whole new type of quota controlled ticket type which will be confusing to the average rail user.

I can picture it now, bank holiday Monday at the end of August. If you want to use LNER from Edinburgh to London mid afternoon (say from 13;00 to 15;30) and don't know the workrounds (buying from Haymarket etc) they will want £150+ for an advance ticket etc

Given that Edinburgh ticket officers are (I assume still) obliged to sell the cheapest ticket, presumably they'll just sell an off peak single from the previous station? Rather than the Anytime which is basically for people claiming tax deductible expenses?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that Edinburgh ticket officers are (I assume still) obliged to sell the cheapest ticket, presumably they'll just sell an off peak single from the previous station? Rather than the Anytime which is basically for people claiming tax deductible expenses?

Impartial retailing does not extend to selling splits or tickets from other stations even if valid. So no, they wouldn't sell that unless you specifically asked for it, and I bet some wouldn't even if you did. No worries, though, just buy it online.

 

[Wallsendmag]

(It also may not be true at all - I'm fairly sure LNER will sell Advances against counted places).

As it's close to Panto season, Oh no they don't

 

[Haywain]

Given that Edinburgh ticket officers are (I assume still) obliged to sell the cheapest ticket, presumably they'll just sell an off peak single from the previous station?

No, they are required to offer the cheapest appropriate ticket for the specific journey requested, so if you don't go in there and ask for a ticket to London from Haymarket, you'll be sold one from Edinburgh. That's not to say that there won't be a searching question or two about where exactly you are going in London alongside the questions about which train(s) you wish to use. Bear in mind that there are direct trains to London operated by 3 different companies during daytime, as well as the sleepers.