LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[A S Leib]

Could you edit your post to include the wording of it please? At present it's not visible, as it needs a few more votes and then for it to be reviewed.


Yep, I totally get where you are coming from.

Done. I think it's meant to be shared as an email at first, which isn't massively useful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could you edit your post to include the wording of it please? At present it's not visible, as it needs a few more votes and then for it to be reviewed.


Yep, I totally get where you are coming from.

The OP may also want to reword it slightly to make clear that it will also cause stealth fare rises due to the lack of a cap that the Super Off Peak provided.

 

[A S Leib]

The OP may also want to reword it slightly to make clear that it will also cause stealth fare rises due to the lack of a cap that the Super Off Peak provided.

I only have 72 characters left, and I can't work out how to edit petitions.

 

[redreni]

I doubt I'll be much affected by this limited pilot as there is no need for LNER to raise the price of an advance above the current super off-peak price in order to deter me from travelling - I am deterred at a lower price point than that. And I don't buy the flexible tickets that are being withdrawn. So they'll be creating room to further increase fares that are already so high that I would rather drive, fly or take the coach.

I am concerned about the remainder of the wedge of which this is the thin end, however. Pricing people off trains is just a strategy to mask the consequences of refusing to lay on adequate rail capacity. It's a dreadful transport policy by any measure; bad for the environment, bad for the economy, bad for consumer choice, bad for resilience.

A wider roll-out would, of course, see the cheapest advances getting more expensive as well. It won't only affect the most expensive advances (which will rise) and the flexible off-peak and super-off peak tickets (which will be withdrawn) that I don't buy anyway. It will move the Overton window. I doubt we'll see that with the pilot, but I've no doubt we'll see it later.

 

[Mat17]

It's a dreadful transport policy measure; bad for the environment, bad for the economy, bad for consumer choice, bad for resilience.

But no doubt cheaper for the bean counters at the government.

It seems everyone is a cash cow these days to have money wrung out of them, public transport users, drivers, businesses.

 

[hkstudent]

Yes that would help the DfT out, as demand for Edinburgh to London is greater than can be acommodated at affordable price levels. Given the shortage of capacity, and given the DfT's desire to reduce subsidies, they are more than happy to price some people off the railways and for those who remain to be paying for higher and less flexible fares.

I guess that's another de-commitment work but DfT towards NetZero as critised by the parliament months ago.

To make things more sustainable, it would be having motorway toll to deter long distance driving.

Back to ground, maybe it's cheaper to get a Avanti priced Off Peak return with dual availability on East Coast.

 

[AY1975]

This is the best definition I've found - these are just Advances with insurance, because they really are not very flexible at all.

A quick search on BRFares (https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=NCL&rte=780&tkt=DNX) confirms details of the new 'Flex' tickets:

1. Non-refundable.
2. LNER only (so no hopping on a Lumo within the period of flexibility).
3. No break of journey.
4. As well as departing ±70min from the original departure time, you must arrive within 180 minutes of the original booked arrival time.
5. If you change trains mid-journey and travel on a train which also served your origin station en route, this train must have departed the origin within the period of flexibility.

What will the booking deadline for these new "Flex" tickets be, or will they be available to buy on the day of travel (just as some operators such as Northern and XC offer Advance fares on the day)? Will they be quota controlled just like Advance fares?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Back to ground, maybe it's cheaper to get a Avanti priced Off Peak return with dual availability on East Coast.

I'd keep that fairly quiet or they'll end up routed Preston or something (or worse routed AVANTI, removing TPE and WMT validity).

The easier workaround is to buy a ticket to/from Haymarket or an inner Thameslink station.

What will the booking deadline for these new "Flex" tickets be, or will they be available to buy on the day of travel (just as some operators such as Northern and XC offer Advance fares on the day)?

On the day. LNER already offer Advances up to 5 minutes before departure. If buying for immediate travel there's obviously no point paying the extra 20 quid, you're not going to get the earlier train or miss it if you're stood looking at it.

Will they be quota controlled just like Advance fares?

Yes. They are basically summed up as an Advance ticket with an insurance policy against missing the train/arriving a bit early.

 

[miklcct]

Do airline companies offer off peak returns? I suspect they don't.

While this isn't a desirable move for rail enthusiasts, I suspect that the general public already think of journeys between London and Newcastle and London and Edinburgh as being for a specific train.

The more apparent issue is the removal of a cap on fares, but again, airlines done offer that either.

This is also one of the reason I prefer taking trains compared to aeroplanes as the price is predictable.

I am not sure how other people think, but I think of a journey between London and Edinburgh similar to a journey between London to Manchester on the fast intercity trains. It's not like travelling by train from Hong Kong to Beijing (2439 km distance) which only has 1 day train per day and takes 8 and an half hours. Such so called "long distance" intercity trains in the UK is in fact like a middle distance train when placed in a broad sense compared to continential Europe and China.

Having affordable walk-up tickets stimulate me travelling over weekends for events when I have nothing booked for them. Without affordable walk-up travel, I simply stay at home.

 

[bramling]

It seems everyone is a cash cow these days to have money wrung out of them, public transport users, drivers, businesses.

And of course taxpayers, both at a national and local level. The current government seems to show no respect to people in terms of spending tax revenues wisely.

 

[KGX]

Pricing people off trains is just a strategy to mask the consequences of refusing to lay on adequate rail capacity.

*Pricing people off certain trains -> to trains which have lots of seats available. LNER have plenty of empty seats over the week.

Biggest complaint I hear from average Joe re LNER is that they've paid X amount and didn't even get a seat. Usually travelling on Sunday. Usually the ticket has been purchased via Trainline. Usually they have unwittingly purchased a super off-peak ticket as advances will have sold out. Usually they are completely unaware of the flexibility benefits of said ticket. Usually they are unaware that they don't have a seat reservation until closer to travel. Results in a partially standing/sitting in the aisles journey. Negative view of rail/LNER.

There are some benefits in spreading demand across the day/week. Which, theoretically, this ticket initiative can do.

 

[Alex C.]

*Pricing people off certain trains -> to trains which have lots of seats available. LNER have plenty of empty seats over the week.

Biggest complaint I hear from average Joe re LNER is that they've paid X amount and didn't even get a seat. Usually travelling on Sunday. Usually the ticket has been purchased via Trainline. Usually they have unwittingly purchased a super off-peak ticket as advances will have sold out. Usually they are completely unaware of the flexibility benefits of said ticket. Usually they are unaware that they don't have a seat reservation until closer to travel. Results in a partially standing/sitting in the aisles journey. Negative view of rail/LNER.

There are some benefits in spreading demand across the day/week. Which, theoretically, this ticket initiative can do.

That could also be accomplished by promoting under utilised trains though - a simple warning saying "these trains are typically very busy and no reservations are available. Travel on the xx:xx for a guaranteed seat" - if improving the passenger experience is the real reason for this, is there any reason that it needs to be introduced in a way which conveniently benefits LNER far more than the passenger?

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit I don't see any benefit to this change for me.

It times the off-peak ticket is within £5 of the cheapest advance ticket - so I pay for the flexible ticket. But right not I know that a ticket between say London and Edinburgh will cost no more then £y. The current situation does cause the 1430 ex London Kings Cross to be overcrowded, but if so few people by "off-peak" tickets that must be LNER selling too many advance for this service.

From my quck check the flex ticket was cheaper then then "off-peak" if I go to Haymarket Rather than Edinburgh. But as others have pointed out, if I want to use the 1000, but the 1030 is cheaper, I will book this and flex back to the 1000.

I suspect this will be forced through, but I am not impressed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

*Pricing people off certain trains -> to trains which have lots of seats available. LNER have plenty of empty seats over the week.

And precisely what use is a train at 2pm on a Wednesday when you finish work at 5pm on a Friday?

Biggest complaint I hear from average Joe re LNER is that they've paid X amount and didn't even get a seat. Usually travelling on Sunday. Usually the ticket has been purchased via Trainline. Usually they have unwittingly purchased a super off-peak ticket as advances will have sold out. Usually they are completely unaware of the flexibility benefits of said ticket. Usually they are unaware that they don't have a seat reservation until closer to travel. Results in a partially standing/sitting in the aisles journey. Negative view of rail/LNER.

It is not possible for this situation to arise on LNER at present because of the use of the compulsory reservation flag.

Compulsory (or fake compulsory) reservations are completely independent of airline style pricing. You can have the former without the latter, indeed many railways do worldwide.

There are some benefits in spreading demand across the day/week. Which, theoretically, this ticket initiative can do.

It'll do nothing of the sort. It has one purpose alone, revenue increase.

 

[t0ffeeman]

I wonder how many off peak singles will be sold from/to Manors after 5th Feb?

 

[redreni]

*Pricing people off certain trains -> to trains which have lots of seats available. LNER have plenty of empty seats over the week.

Or planes. Or cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or planes. Or cars.

The key is that (possibly other than Edinburgh) the car is a viable competitor. Thus if it's expensive Friday evening I'm not going to use annual leave and go on Wednesday, I'm just going to drive.

 

[A S Leib]

Can it be assumed that break of journey on 70min fares won't be allowed?

 

[Gaelan]

The key is that (possibly other than Edinburgh) the car is a viable competitor. Thus if it's expensive Friday evening I'm not going to use annual leave and go on Wednesday, I'm just going to drive.

This is the thing LNER needs to understand: cars are fully flexible. They allow unlimited break of journey.

LNER's half-hour frequency is a thing they could be capitalizing on! Offer affordable off-peaks, run ads about how rail travel gets you all of the flexibility of a road trip with none of the driving.

Instead, they're doing this. It's a horrendous waste.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can it be assumed that break of journey on 70min fares won't be allowed?

That's correct.

They are normal Advances with the same conditions, other than that they can be rebooked to, or simply used on, a train within the given time bounds instead of the booked one.

 

[mad_rich]

Kentish Town to Newcastle, or London to Manors it is then. With the added benefit of an increased chance of missed connection and hence Delay Repay.

This is a customer hostile change, and it will encourage me to be a hostile customer*. As I’ve been telling LNER add David Horne on Twitter today, it has erased the substantial goodwill that they have earned since they took over from Virgin.

Does anyone know how and when they will judge whether it’s been a success? And how best to sabotage the pilot?

-
* Edited to add: hostile in my opinion of LNER, not hostile behaviour towards staff!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Kentish Town to Newcastle, or London to Manors it is then. With the added benefit of an increased chance of missed connection and hence Delay Repay.

Only if you actually did travel to/from Kentish Town or Manors. To claim DR when you didn't is fraudulent.

Does anyone know how and when they will judge whether it’s been a success?

It's a two year pilot, which does have the potential advantage of a likely change of Government in the middle of it.

And how best to sabotage the pilot?

Drive instead? (I can just see them shoving BoJ restrictions on the "avoidance" fares if too many people buy them, but equally you could just actually go to e.g. Haymarket, it's still in the centre of Edinburgh and has a frequent service).

 

[kristiang85]

A while ago now, I was in Taiwan for a few weeks and found their train ticketing pretty good. You had to buy a ticket for a specific train (but bought it at the station immediately before you got on rather than days in advance). All seats were reserved, but once all seats had been booked you had the option to buy a "standing ticket" for significantly less than the price for the seat. I'm not sure whether there was a cap on the number of standing tickets, but if there was it must have been pretty high given how packed the local trains out of Taipei were. I'm not sure it would work so well here - over there I suspect nobody would even consider buying a standing ticket and sitting in someone's seat which certainly wouldn't be the case here!!

I got stuck with one of these in China after missing a train (due to my travel companion insisting on getting a taxi to the station instead of the metro), and ended up physically standing for 26 hours It was all rather horrific, but makes a good pub story.

On the topic at hand, I quite like the Italian system where even advance purchase tickets are still OK 4 hours after the departure time (as far as I've understood when I've used them); I certainly don't think they charge more. But I'm not a regular user so my understadning might be wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the topic at hand, I quite like the Italian system where even advance purchase tickets are still OK 4 hours after the departure time (as far as I've understood when I've used them); I certainly don't think they charge more. But I'm not a regular user so my understadning might be wrong.

We had that upthread.

These are fixed price regional tickets, which in the UK would be valid all day (until 0430).

Long distance is all compulsory reservation and airline style in Italy.

 

[mad_rich]

Only if you actually did travel to/from Kentish Town or Manors. To claim DR when you didn't is fraudulent..

Oh yes. I’m usually going to Kentish Town anyway, so it’s no problem taking Thameslink.

At the other end, Manors would be a bit out of my way. But I’m more than happy to do it if it deprives LNER of revenue!

-

Newcastle to Manors is hourly. I assume if I missed a connection then chose to walk or Metro to Manors, I could truthfully claim Delay Repay based on arrival time on foot? It’s also handy for my favourite pub…

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's hard to contemplate any possibility other than that this was thought of in response to a HMG request for them to bring in more revenue.

Going way back, Virgin WC always considered off-peak returns (SVR) as "too cheap", especially when they were available with a railcard in the peak (long gone).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Going way back, Virgin WC always considered off-peak returns (SVR) as "too cheap", especially when they were available with a railcard in the peak (long gone).

To be fair the WCML ones are now about 20% cheaper than the LNER ones, because they were made cheaper when the SuperSaver was abolished (entirely VT's doing) and they haven't been subject to the stealth fare rise that occurred at single fare pricing.

However I'd disagree that they are too cheap. They cost a bit more than the marginal cost (which is the applicable one*) of one person driving a small economical petrol car, and way more than a small economical EV.

* 45p/mile is not applicable to a car owner for a marginal extra leisure journey - the car would be owned anyway so the purchase element and the fixed parts of the maintenance (typically servicing these days as most people don't hit the usual 20Kish thresholds in a year) is not applicable.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes that would help the DfT out, as demand for Edinburgh to London is greater than can be acommodated at affordable price levels. Given the shortage of capacity, and given the DfT's desire to reduce subsidies, they are more than happy to price some people off the railways and for those who remain to be paying for higher and less flexible fares.

They are also directing people to air - by cutting the air passenger duty on domestic flights. However I suspect if the price is right, we will just be picking flows that LNER don't price to continue to use the off-peak.

LNER are saying it won't impact many people, this could be true as I suspect even most normal passengers use thier closest station rather than Kings Cross - Edinburgh.

I don't think I have ever had a journey where the split offered from Welwyn Garden City - Edinburgh (via London) is Kings Cross.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are also directing people to air - by cutting the air passenger duty on domestic flights. However I suspect if the price is right, we will just be picking flows that LNER don't price to continue to use the off-peak.

LNER are saying it won't impact many people, this could be true as I suspect even most normal passengers use thier closest station rather than Kings Cross - Edinburgh.

I don't think I have ever had a journey where the split offered from Welwyn Garden City - Edinburgh (via London) is Kings Cross.

It's probably more that most people who do London to Edinburgh do buy Advances because it's such a long journey so multiple trains are unlikely to be applicable to most peoples' needs. Along similar lines I've used them to Penzance because it's such a long journey that there's less need for flexibility, and if you're using the Chieftain there's only one train anyway!

Start applying this to Leeds, Donny and the likes and the game is rather different, though. Imagine it applied to London-Birmingham! (Well, WMT and Chiltern would certainly be cashing in if they elected to keep their walk-up fares).

The biggest issue with it, though, isn't the loss of the actual Off Peak ticket, much as it's an issue to me as they're my preferred ticket. The biggest issue - and the whole purpose of doing it - is to remove the capping effect the Off Peak has on Advance fares which prevents them whacking people travelling at busy times like Friday evening and Sunday afternoon as well as school holidays with £150+ singles.

 

[30907]

Apologies if I'm repeating a previous post (I haven't the energy to comb through 170+) but aren't Super OffPeaks regulated fares? So how can they legally be abolished?

As well as the capping issue, there is the BoJ facility that will be lost - it may not be much used (it's years since I did that in this country) - and the flexibility on return halves (but that went with single-leg pricing).

I am much less hostile to the idea of an "Advance Plus" - I might benefit from this: I now usually travel First (for a less crowded experience, not just the freebies), where (LNER) Offpeak fares are poor value, so I almost always use Advances.

I might be persuaded to cough up the extra for a bit of flexibility. I certainly would do so for the return leg if I had a business meeting or similar when I might welcome a bit of flexibility.