LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Bletchleyite]

We're in spiral of decline territory in that case, trying to extract ever more money from an ever-decreasing pool of passengers.

Yep, that's 100% the 2024 railway. Bang on.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I suppose if this increases overall revenue it's a good thing, as there would be more money for pay rises, investment or to reduce the subsidy.
Do these new tickets have 1st class versions, and do they allow railcard discounts?
In November last year I decided, on the spur of the moment, to have a day out in York. Went to my local station (Three Bridges) to buy a ticket (with my new Senior Railcard!) and was put off by the cost of 1st class travel (around £300). Went home, had a coffee, remembered the All Line Rail Rover, back to the station and spent the next few days traveling up and down the LNER route. Much better value

 

[Ian79]

I can see people really getting tied up in knots with these tickets when trains are delayed.

Presumably the 70 minutes is scheduled time rather than actual time, but even with advance tickets for a specific train there are always loads of people on the wrong train once trains are delayed by more than the interval between them (happens quite often on London-York).

Either that, or is it a very sneaky way for them to almost always avoid paying out for a full refund on delay repay - full refund if the train is more than 60 minutes late, but more than 70 minutes late and your ticket is no longer valid so no refund and also you have to buy a full price "Anytime" ticket and pay a penalty fare........

One thing I hadn't realised LNER have done (which is good) is make "Advance" tickets available to be bought up until the train departs rather than until the night before. For the kind of trips I do for work (often with an off-peak return) where I'm not sure exactly what time I'm coming back that would work quite well. If there's no advance tickets left, that may well mean no seats left and standing for 2 hours is daft when I could wait 20 minutes for another train with space still on.

A while ago now, I was in Taiwan for a few weeks and found their train ticketing pretty good. You had to buy a ticket for a specific train (but bought it at the station immediately before you got on rather than days in advance). All seats were reserved, but once all seats had been booked you had the option to buy a "standing ticket" for significantly less than the price for the seat. I'm not sure whether there was a cap on the number of standing tickets, but if there was it must have been pretty high given how packed the local trains out of Taipei were. I'm not sure it would work so well here - over there I suspect nobody would even consider buying a standing ticket and sitting in someone's seat which certainly wouldn't be the case here!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose if this increases overall revenue it's a good thing

It's not a good thing if it comes out of my pocket when I want to travel, no.

 

[yorksrob]

Notable the difference between ScotRail’s simplification and this. One focused on actually making it easier and one focused on making £££. Something something governments in charge…

The contrast couldn't be more stark.

 

[yorkie]

I suppose if this increases overall revenue it's a good thing, as there would be more money for pay rises, investment or to reduce the subsidy.

That's a controversial statement but best debated in a separate thread.

Do these new tickets have 1st class versions, and do they allow railcard discounts?

Yes and yes.

In November last year I decided, on the spur of the moment, to have a day out in York.

I suspect we would have undercut that by a substantial amount.

I can see people really getting tied up in knots with these tickets when trains are delayed.

Presumably the 70 minutes is scheduled time rather than actual time, but even with advance tickets for a specific train there are always loads of people on the wrong train once trains are delayed by more than the interval between them (happens quite often on London-York).

Either that, or is it a very sneaky way for them to almost always avoid paying out for a full refund on delay repay - full refund if the train is more than 60 minutes late, but more than 70 minutes late and your ticket is no longer valid so no refund and also you have to buy a full price "Anytime" ticket and pay a penalty fare........

Full refund applies if you choose not to travel where a train you intend to catch is cancelled; I'd argue that if any train in the +/- 70 min is cancelled, that triggers a refund right. But would LNER agree? To be fair, you only have to get the agreement of your retailer (I must ask Raileasy that!)

Delay Repay is measured against your intended journey. The only part that could be contentious is where you originaly book (say) the 1100, but on the day you decide to get the 1000. If the 1000 is cancelled, and you get the 1100, is there an entitlemenent? Arguably yes, as that would be the case if an Off Peak was held. But again, would LNER agree? I suspect they'd try to weasel out of it but I hope they prove me wrong on that point.

One thing I hadn't realised LNER have done (which is good) is make "Advance" tickets available to be bought up until the train departs rather than until the night before. For the kind of trips I do for work (often with an off-peak return) where I'm not sure exactly what time I'm coming back that would work quite well. If there's no advance tickets left, that may well mean no seats left and standing for 2 hours is daft when I could wait 20 minutes for another train with space still on.

Most TOCs allow Advances right up to departure these days. The old 1800, and then 2359, deadlines are long gone.

A while ago now, I was in Taiwan for a few weeks and found their train ticketing pretty good. You had to buy a ticket for a specific train (but bought it at the station immediately before you got on rather than days in advance). All seats were reserved, but once all seats had been booked you had the option to buy a "standing ticket" for significantly less than the price for the seat. I'm not sure whether there was a cap on the number of standing tickets, but if there was it must have been pretty high given how packed the local trains out of Taipei were. I'm not sure it would work so well here - over there I suspect nobody would even consider buying a standing ticket and sitting in someone's seat which certainly wouldn't be the case here!!

Feel free to create a thead in Specualtive Discussion to discuss this proposal (or any other proposals).

1. Presumably this means that NO long distance fares under the planned system are now ‘regulated’?
2. It means that prices can rise closer and closer to the Anytime and surpass it
3. The tickets provide NO validity on any other operator
4. There is no break of journey allowed, except in Anytime
5. The non-Anytime tickets can now all be witheld, limited or entirely removed from sale, at any point, leaving only the Anytime fares available
5. The single fare ‘pilot’ appears to be a cynical pathway for this shambles and not a pilot for single fare pricing.

Sounds like an FOI request should be made!

As for break of journey, I wonder how that works with +/- 70 min tickets; ok so break of journey won't be allowed but imagine if the trial is a success and you got a York to Bournemouth Flex, you could depart York 70min earlier and also depart Waterloo 70 min later, plus the cross-London interchange time would give you potentially 3 hours for a meal. Technically not allowed, unless the meal was within the station premises (but would be permitted in Carluccios at St Pancras, or Parcel Yard at King's Cross, and does that pub still exist at Waterloo? etc...) in which case it would be allowed. Or perhaps they will make the rules even more "simpler" (!) by introducing complicated negative "easements" to prevent such things?

 

[hkstudent]

That's a controversial statement but best debated in a separate thread.

Yes and yes.

I suspect we would have undercut that by a substantial amount.


Full refund applies if you choose not to travel where a train you intend to catch is cancelled; I'd argue that if any train in the +/- 70 min is cancelled, that triggers a refund right. But would LNER agree? To be fair, you only have to get the agreement of your retailer (I must ask Raileasy that!)

Delay Repay is measured against your intended journey. The only part that could be contentious is where you originaly book (say) the 1100, but on the day you decide to get the 1000. If the 1000 is cancelled, and you get the 1100, is there an entitlemenent? Arguably yes, as that would be the case if an Off Peak was held. But again, would LNER agree? I suspect they'd try to weasel out of it but I hope they prove me wrong on that point.

Most TOCs allow Advances right up to departure these days. The old 1800, and then 2359, deadlines are long gone.

Feel free to create a thead in Specualtive Discussion to discuss this proposal (or any other proposals).


Sounds like an FOI request should be made!

As for break of journey, I wonder how that works with +/- 70 min tickets; ok so break of journey won't be allowed but imagine if the trial is a success and you got a York to Bournemouth Flex, you could depart York 70min earlier and also depart Waterloo 70 min later, plus the cross-London interchange time would give you potentially 3 hours for a meal. Technically not allowed, unless the meal was within the station premises (but would be permitted in Carluccios at St Pancras, or Parcel Yard at King's Cross, and does that pub still exist at Waterloo? etc...) in which case it would be allowed. Or perhaps they will make the rules even more "simpler" (!) by introducing complicated negative "easements" to prevent such things?

I noted that still some regional TOCs like Southeastern and Greater Anglia still do 23:59 Advance, but that’s likely be out of scope.

I feel that at the end, this type of ticket will push people being feeling the railway be less flexible and at the end will go coach or plane as they are cheaper and having the same inflexibility

 

[yorkie]

I noted that still some regional TOCs like Southeastern and Greater Anglia still do 23:59 Advance, but that’s likely be out of scope.

I feel that at the end, this type of ticket will push people being feeling the railway be less flexible and at the end will go coach or plane as they are cheaper and having the same inflexibility

Yes that would help the DfT out, as demand for Edinburgh to London is greater than can be acommodated at affordable price levels. Given the shortage of capacity, and given the DfT's desire to reduce subsidies, they are more than happy to price some people off the railways and for those who remain to be paying for higher and less flexible fares.

 

[Kite159]

And Lumo will become even more overcrowded, especially when a London based football team is playing Newcastle and LNER wants £100+ for an advance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And Lumo will become even more overcrowded, especially when a London based football team is playing Newcastle and LNER wants £100+ for an advance.

Who's to say Lumo won't crank their prices up too? Their Anytime is suspiciously almost exactly the same price as the LNER Super Off Peak.

 

[miklcct]

Yes that would help the DfT out, as demand for Edinburgh to London is greater than can be acommodated at affordable price levels. Given the shortage of capacity, and given the DfT's desire to reduce subsidies, they are more than happy to price some people off the railways and for those who remain to be paying for higher and less flexible fares.

But it will drive people to cars and aeroplanes, which are highly undesirable.

 

[philjo]

How does the 70 minutes before/after your booked train work with stations such as Almnouth or Harrogate where the LNER services are usually every 2 hours ?

 

[Alex C.]

How does the 70 minutes before/after your booked train work with stations such as Almnouth or Harrogate where the LNER services are usually every 2 hours ?

Those stations aren't in scope (yet). In practice if they expand the trial I suspect they would say 70 minutes or the next/previous service, whichever is the most appropriate for the station. As there is no break of journey allowed, it won't apply to the current tickets.

 

[yorkie]

But it will drive people to cars and aeroplanes, which are highly undesirable.

Yes but LNER do what the DfT find desirable, not what you or I think!

How does the 70 minutes before/after your booked train work with stations such as Almnouth or Harrogate where the LNER services are usually every 2 hours ?

Then it would be utterly pointless, though by the time those locations are included, maybe it will become "LNER & Connections".

Who's to say Lumo won't crank their prices up too? Their Anytime is suspiciously almost exactly the same price as the LNER Super Off Peak.

Lumo will be very happy about this change, that's for sure!

 

[rg177]

Well, as a Newcastle resident, yet again I can't say I'm a fan of having my journeys turned into some daft experiment.

It's not necessarily the loss of the Super Off-Peak fare that I'm worried about, it's more the fact that the de-facto cap on fares (due to that fare existing) is now gone.

 

[MrJeeves]

Well seemingly only Trainline and LNER's own sites aren't selling the Super Off-Peak Single at the moment.

GWR and TrainSplit/forum's site are still happily retailing the single into March.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not necessarily the loss of the Super Off-Peak fare that I'm worried about, it's more the fact that the de-facto cap on fares (due to that fare existing) is now gone.

Bingo.

The only reason to do this is to remove that cap. If that wasn't the intention, they could just have stuck the 70 minute fare in as an additional thing.

 

[JonathanH]

But it will drive people to cars and aeroplanes, which are highly undesirable.

Do airline companies offer off peak returns? I suspect they don't.

While this isn't a desirable move for rail enthusiasts, I suspect that the general public already think of journeys between London and Newcastle and London and Edinburgh as being for a specific train.

The more apparent issue is the removal of a cap on fares, but again, airlines done offer that either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The more apparent issue is the removal of a cap on fares, but again, airlines done offer that either.

Airlines don't offer that, no, but easyJet's fares are generally rather more reasonable than LNER's. And it's a lot quicker, particularly when you consider most people don't live within walking distance of either Waverley or Kings Cross, which means you have a local journey at one end whether you fly or go by train. Thus if you're going to have to take similar conditions you may as well have the speed gain too.

Swingeingly high Friday PM/Sunday PM/school holiday fares, which WILL happen (this is clearly the purpose of this scheme), are a gift to airlines who can crank theirs up too but not quite as much.

 

[bramling]

LNER is to pilot the replacement of Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets on certain flows (Kings Cross to Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh) with a new '70-minute Flex' ticket. During the trial there will be only three fare types available: Anytime, 70-min Flex, and Advance.

From https://www.lner.co.uk/news/lner-launches-pioneering-pilot-to-further-simplify-fares/:


If Flex tickets are priced competitively, then I would consider buying them over an Advance. But they are surely much less useful than the Off-Peak types they are replacing.

That would actually be enough to stop me using LNER services. I value flexibility, but quite simply am not prepared to pay the anytime fare - and that’s with 75% off.

Another nail in rail’s coffin.

 

[yorkie]

Do airline companies offer off peak returns? I suspect they don't.

No, but a major advantage of rail is now gone (notwithstanding the workarounds, such booking with us or booking a longer journey and starting/finishing short)

While this isn't a desirable move for rail enthusiasts, I suspect that the general public already think of journeys between London and Newcastle and London and Edinburgh as being for a specific train.

That is certainy the direction we have been headed for some time, but it's not gone far enough for DfT/LNER's liking, until now...

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is certainy the direction we have been headed for some time, but it's not gone far enough for DfT/LNER's liking, until now...

I don't think the DfT care about flexibility, but they do care about increasing fares substantially, which is the purpose of this.

I know some would disagree (I'm certain you would ) but I'd accept abolishing Off Peak if Anytime was reduced to within 20% of Off Peak, which would create fare levels similar to Germany. But this is just about cranking Friday PM/Sunday PM/school holiday fares up massively. Expect £200ish single Edinburgh<->London at these times before very long (it'll be slowly increased so they can claim it wasn't to start with).

 

[sprunt]

Place your bets for when the first "I travelled on this train using my semi-flexible ticket and was told that my ticket was invalid" post will appear in Disputes and Prosecutions.

 

[Mat17]

Looks like I'll be opting for Anytime tickets then. I can't stand the ambiguity around advances when cancellations occur or things go wrong. I've never liked being tied to a specific train. I guess I'll just travel much, much less.

 

[Kite159]

.

Expect £200ish single Edinburgh<->London at these times before very long (it'll be slowly increased so they can claim it wasn't to start with)

Or advance fares which are 50p ~ £1 less than the anytime single ticket on trains during the day with maybe some cheaper fares for the first/last trains which have limited connections at either end.

 

[yorkie]

That would actually be enough to stop me using LNER services. I value flexibility, but quite simply am not prepared to pay the anytime fare - and that’s with 75% off.

Another nail in rail’s coffin.

For you, yes, but they don't particularly want your custom; the pricing strategy is about maximising revenues rather than maximising rail's modal share, or anything like that. This is the DfT we are talking about, and LNER are more than happy to oblige.

Place your bets for when the first "I travelled on this train using my semi-flexible ticket and was told that my ticket was invalid" post will appear in Disputes and Prosecutions.

And the fare charged will be the Anytime fare, with no allowance made for the amount already paid (which would already be £20 higher than the baseline Advance fare), leaving the customer with a bill of the original Advance fare plus £20 plus the Anytime fare. And if you want Weekend First on top, well you'd best take out a mortgage these days.

Looks like I'll be opting for Anytime tickets then. I can't stand the ambiguity around advances when cancellations occur or things go wrong. I've never liked being tied to a specific train. I guess I'll just travel much, much less.

During the trial period, book with our booking site, click "Flexible" and we'll see if we can identify cheaper combinations of Off Peak fares than the through fare LNER want to charge.

 

[bramling]

For you, yes, but they don't particularly want your custom; the pricing strategy is about maximising revenues rather than maximising rail's modal share, or anything like that. This is the DfT we are talking about, and LNER are more than happy to oblige.

Sadly agree with the above, that does seem to be about the sum-total of it.

There’s almost something rather Orwellian about people all compliantly being tied down to their own train, with the state being so generous enough to allow you 70 minutes. Hate it.

As an aside, we are now 16 days into 2024 and I haven’t used a national rail train yet. Well done DFT / government.

 

[A S Leib]

I'm not sure if anything will come of it, but I've set up a petition.

Scrap the LNER fare change trial

For the Department for Transport to prevent London North Eastern Railway from scrapping off-peak fares

The current system of fares offered by London North Eastern Railway is relatively simple, with the options of advance, anytime and off-peak tickets. Their trial, starting with journeys between London and Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh, would remove flexibility from travellers going outside peak hours by limiting them to periods of 2 hours per day in which to travel, forcing many to buy more expensive anytime fares instead.

 

[Mat17]

During the trial period, book with our booking site, click "Flexible" and we'll see if we can identify cheaper combinations of Off Peak fares than the through fare LNER want to charge.

I'd probably go to EMR for their off peaks instead to be honest.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure if anything will come of it, but I've set up a petition.

Could you edit your post to include the wording of it please? At present it's not visible, as it needs a few more votes and then for it to be reviewed.

Sadly agree with the above, that does seem to be about the sum-total of it.

There’s almost something rather Orwellian about people all compliantly being tied down to their own train, with the state being so generous enough to allow you 70 minutes. Hate it.

Yep, I totally get where you are coming from.