LNER / UK Fare System

[Matt26]

Hi all,

New here and hoping the community can help provide an answer.

We're all dismayed with LNER's proposals, but having lived happily in the Netherlands for three years I always wonder...what's to stop us having a nationwide role out of OV / contactless? It works in London, so why not UK / England wide?

Even in NL it works for longer journeys, so no over crowding, offers total flex at a reasonable cost and also everyone can buy a Railcard of some variety, meaning there's no 32 years old cut off.

So is it just politics that stop us having this system of total flex and discounts between 31-65? I struggle with the idea of trains being such a private sector commodity when they're so essential to getting about.

Thanks!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The South East of England, which is about the same size as the Netherlands, is going to get Project Oval which is basically this (including the Network Railcard, though only on paper/e-tickets and with the minimum fare).

The Netherlands doesn't have any long distance services at all by LNER standards, the closest comparison is "Eurostar Red" if we can call it that (i.e. ex-Thalys) - and that, like LNER's proposal, has a self contained fare system with airline style pricing (and quite expensive too!) and compulsory reservation.

 

[JonathanH]

We're all dismayed with LNER's proposals, but having lived happily in the Netherlands for three years I always wonder...what's to stop us having a nationwide role out of OV / contactless? It works in London, so why not UK / England wide?

Lots of things, as we do not have a fully gated system, and a fundamental part of such a system is having a maximum journey time.

The best we can hope for is Contactless on a regional basis, but even then I'd be careful what you wish for.

 

[yorkie]

Hi all,

New here and hoping the community can help provide an answer.

We're all dismayed with LNER's proposals, but having lived happily in the Netherlands for three years I always wonder...what's to stop us having a nationwide role out of OV / contactless? It works in London, so why not UK / England wide?

What fares do you propose?

See:

Could all stations eventually get ticket barriers? And could this allow contactless PAYG to be rolled out nationwide?

Platform edge doors are very pie-in-the-sky in terms of widespread coverage at every single British railway station, but here’s something that is probably more realistic and will bring much greater benefits: How about a long-term rolling programme to get every single station fitted with ticket...

www.railforums.co.uk

and

Could the contactless payment increase make widespread PAYG feasible?

Today's budget included an announcement that the contactless payment limit was increasing from £45 to £100. As a lot of rail journeys cost under £100 each way, would it be feasible for the industry to start working towards a nationwide touch-in/touch-out pay-as-you-go scheme?

www.railforums.co.uk

Prospect of a national-wide railway smartcard

That's a similar approach to buses - used by the 36 in Leeds and Harrogate, as well as Trentbarton (in the very near future). They have ways of contacting to resolve those fares. However, these have a day ticket fare which is fairly reasonable. My worry is someone taps in at (say) Exeter St...

www.railforums.co.uk

Is there any scope for less card being used?

I've just had a consignment of tickets delivered. It's for a single journey, and consists of eight coupons and a credit card receipt. For a one-way journey. OK, so it's a three-way split ticket, but even then, there should be a simple way to keep that down to three coupons. If it were an...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lots of things, as we do not have a fully gated system

Not required. Manchester Metrolink is now contactless, and that has precisely no (zero) gated stations.

 

[Matt26]

The South East of England, which is about the same size as the Netherlands, is going to get Project Oval which is basically this (including the Network Railcard, though only on paper/e-tickets and with the minimum fare).

The Netherlands doesn't have any long distance services at all by LNER standards, the closest comparison is "Eurostar Red" if we can call it that (i.e. ex-Thalys) - and that, like LNER's proposal, has a self contained fare system with airline style pricing (and quite expensive too!) and compulsory reservation.

Would the long distance eg Edinburgh London trips be a blocker? I'm thinking Groningen to Utrecht is still 2 hours. Curious whether 2/4 hours makes much difference re reservations?
Perhaps irony is you can't get a seat with existing system anyway

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would the long distance eg Edinburgh London trips be a blocker?

In pricing terms yes. While LNER are proposing the other way, I doubt people would be accepting of there only being one all-day fare of say £150 single.

I'm thinking Groningen to Utrecht is still 2 hours. Curious whether 2/4 hours makes much difference re reservations?

I think actual seat reservations are a red herring to be honest (as long as there's enough capacity).

Perhaps irony is you can't get a seat with existing system anyway

Can't you? I can't remember the last time I didn't.

 

[JonathanH]

Not required. Manchester Metrolink is now contactless, and that has precisely no (zero) gated stations.

As is the Docklands Light Railway, and plenty of stations in London, but the problem is greater as you go a further distance. That said, if someone is never completing their journeys, they will eventually be investigated.

 

[Matt26]

I suppose then, why can't we have a model that doesn't say the base price "would be £150". NL prices offer total flex but their price isn't what our flex on the day prices are. The model + availability of railcards provides a very affordable on the day service.

So, is that just political will + funding which distinguishes UK + NL?

We don't say bus or TFL journeys are advance or anytime etc, it's flat fee hop on, so I've never really understood why when it comes to trains it's X* price to have a modicum of flex.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As is the Docklands Light Railway, and plenty of stations in London, but the problem is greater as you go a further distance. That said, if someone is never completing their journeys, they will eventually be investigated.

I think to be honest you can handle it with escalating penalties and then permanently and irrevocably blocking the card.

Say:
£20 for the first failure to touch in/out
£50 for the second
£100 for the third
Then the card blocked irrevocably from all rail sales channels, contactless or not, so you have the faff of getting a new one from your bank. The block would also apply immediately if any of the above penalties "bounced".

That would rein in the majority of fare dodging. Perfection is the enemy of the good, you don't really need to be charging people Penzance-Wick fares or working out exactly what they should have paid. Indeed I doubt Oval will automatically charge Brighton-Bedford or Bletchley (I suspect that may be the most expensive fare) if you don't touch in/out.

Yes, you can go Penzance-Wick *once* for 20 quid that way if you manage to avoid any gateline or guard/RPI the entire way (not likely!) but I'm not sure how much of an issue this would actually be.

I suppose then, why can't we have a model that doesn't say the base price "would be £150". NL prices offer total flex but their price isn't what our flex on the day prices are. The model + availability of railcards provides a very affordable on the day service.

So, is that just political will + funding which distinguishes UK + NL?

I suspect Nederlandse Spoorwegen enjoys a considerably higher subsidy compared to the UK system.

Thalys/Eurostar "Red" fares do seem to be roughly in line with UK IC fares, notably, i.e. quite high.

 

[Trainbike46]

I think to be honest you can handle it with escalating penalties and then permanently and irrevocably blocking the card.

Say:
£20 for the first failure to touch in/out
£50 for the second
£100 for the third
Then the card blocked irrevocably from all rail sales channels, contactless or not, so you have the faff of getting a new one from your bank. The block would also apply immediately if any of the above penalties "bounced".

That would rein in the majority of fare dodging. Perfection is the enemy of the good, you don't really need to be charging people Penzance-Wick fares or working out exactly what they should have paid. Indeed I doubt Oval will automatically charge Brighton-Bedford or Bletchley (I suspect that may be the most expensive fare) if you don't touch in/out.

Yes, you can go Penzance-Wick *once* for 20 quid that way if you manage to avoid any gateline or guard/RPI the entire way (not likely!) but I'm not sure how much of an issue this would actually be.



I suspect Nederlandse Spoorwegen enjoys a considerably higher subsidy compared to the UK system.

Thalys/Eurostar "Red" fares do seem to be roughly in line with UK IC fares, notably, i.e. quite high.

notably, the thalys is fully commercial and there is a cheaper alternative for travel to Antwerp and Brussels in the form of the NS&NMBS IC service (which is due to be improved significantly in the coming few years)

 

[Benjwri]

I suspect Nederlandse Spoorwegen enjoys a considerably higher subsidy compared to the UK system.

NS pre covid did not receive subsidy, and has to pay the Dutch Government 80 million euros to run the franchise (Although it is a direct award, and NS is a government company. They have received a subsidy since Covid, however the size of it is sharply shrinking, at €274 million. The UK government paid nearly half that in management fees alone to TOCs under the Covid arrangements, and the government assuming the revenue risk.

 

[Trainbike46]

NS pre covid did not receive subsidy, and has to pay the Dutch Government 80 million euros to run the franchise (Although it is a direct award, and NS is a government company. They have received a subsidy since Covid, however the size of it is sharply shrinking, at €274 million. The UK government paid nearly half that in management fees alone to TOCs under the Covid arrangements, and the government assuming the revenue risk.

Though I believe prorail receives some level of direct subsidy, that is no different from direct network rail subsidies