LNER unreliability caused by staff shortages

[kkong]

The Inverness service is a stupidly crewed train, where the driver is a Newcastle lodge driver.
They pass up to Edinburgh then work the service to Inverness, lodge overnight, pass to Aberdeen and then work 1452 Aberdeen as far as Edinburgh.

If that turn goes uncovered Edinburgh becomes the place to terminate.

As far as I am aware Edinburgh drivers only sign as far as Perth? So they can’t even step up to work it.

Really seems stupid to me that Edinburgh drivers don’t drive to Inverness or Aberdeen.

Same has happened today.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Why is it the LNER trains North of Edinburgh seem to suffer from staff or driver shortage issues???

These services are infrequent and I'm sure one day passengers will get fed up. What's worse, its 9-car trains being cancelled and passengers being transferred to a shorter HST, 3-car 170, 2-car 158 or even a rail replacement bus (no way am I doing a rail replacement bus if I've booked a trip on an LNER Azuma, especially First Class!!!)

 

[800001]

Why is it the LNER trains North of Edinburgh seem to suffer from staff or driver shortage issues???

These services are infrequent and I'm sure one day passengers will get fed up. What's worse, its 9-car trains being cancelled and passengers being transferred to a shorter HST, 3-car 170, 2-car 158 or even a rail replacement bus (no way am I doing a rail replacement bus if I've booked a trip on an LNER Azuma, especially First Class!!!)

Read the post slightly above, Newcastle lodge turn driver so if uncovered, only a few other people who can cover.

 

[kkong]

The disruption and unreliability of Aberdeen services continues.

I would be surprised if Transport Scotland are not seeking an urgent improvement from LNER; it not, they should be.

 

[John Bishop]

The disruption and unreliability of Aberdeen services continues.

I would be surprised if Transport Scotland are not seeking an urgent improvement from LNER; it not, they should be.

Aberdeen and stations to it are not in the central belt, so they won’t give two hoots about the disruption.

 

[38Cto15E]

I like going LNER First to Aberdeen, it is usually good value, and I have to say I have never encountered any cancellations, well just 1 from Edinburgh because of storm ?
With the 0752 and 0952 from ABD, if there is a cancellation is it usually the 0752?
I know that Aberdeen no longer has Chefs based there, so the usual Bacon roll on the morning services rather than full breakfast.

 

[TUC]

Read the post slightly above, Newcastle lodge turn driver so if uncovered, only a few other people who can cover.

The point was why set the arrangements around Newcastle rather than Edinburgh crew?

 

[800001]

The point was why set the arrangements around Newcastle rather than Edinburgh crew?

That does not come across in the post I answered!!!! In the post it does not mention or question what you yourself have just asked above!!!!

 

[Surreytraveller]

The point was why set the arrangements around Newcastle rather than Edinburgh crew?

Why not? Probably historical reasons. But with Newcastle crew you'd get more work out of them. Inverness or Aberdeen are closer to Edinburgh than Newcastle, so a driver wouldn't do as much work for the same money

 

[Watershed]

The point was why set the arrangements around Newcastle rather than Edinburgh crew?

Because, with the times and frequency that LNER run to Inverness, it's more efficient to have a Newcastle driver work the service than an Edinburgh driver. An Edinburgh driver would only be able to work the service between Edinburgh and Inverness in one direction and then have to pass back, or lodge. Whereas by using a Newcastle driver you are able to have them work a service between Newcastle and Edinburgh before having a break and then working between Edinburgh and Inverness.

You also have to consider the fact that there are corresponding early/late Aberdeen workings - and it's long been the case that these are worked in combination with the Inverness service (so the Newcastle driver drives up to Aberdeen/Inverness and then passes over to Inverness/Aberdeen respectively, then working a service the following morning).

Otherwise a very long taxi, or again an inefficient Edinburgh turn would be needed to cover these services. Or there would need to be an Aberdeen driver depot, which would probably be equally inefficient due to its small size (I'm surprised that LNER actually have a guards and catering depot in Aberdeen).

Plus there is also the fact that this has long been the arrangement, and it suits all parties concerned. I think the bigger issue is that Edinburgh aren't trained on Inverness, where realistically some of the top link drivers probably should be, in order to be able to cover for a Newcastle driver going sick.

 

[800001]

Because, with the times and frequency that LNER run to Inverness, it's more efficient to have a Newcastle driver work the service than an Edinburgh driver. An Edinburgh driver would only be able to work the service between Edinburgh and Inverness in one direction and then have to pass back, or lodge. Whereas by using a Newcastle driver you are able to have them work a service between Newcastle and Edinburgh before having a break and then working between Edinburgh and Inverness.

You also have to consider the fact that there are corresponding early/late Aberdeen workings - and it's long been the case that these are worked in combination with the Inverness service (so the Newcastle driver drives up to Aberdeen/Inverness and then passes over to Inverness/Aberdeen respectively, then working a service the following morning).

Otherwise a very long taxi, or again an inefficient Edinburgh turn would be needed to cover these services. Or there would need to be an Aberdeen driver depot, which would probably be equally inefficient due to its small size (I'm surprised that LNER actually have a guards and catering depot in Aberdeen).

Plus there is also the fact that this has long been the arrangement, and it suits all parties concerned. I think the bigger issue is that Edinburgh aren't trained on Inverness, where realistically some of the top link drivers probably should be, in order to be able to cover for a Newcastle driver going sick.

Except the Newcastle drivers travel pass to/from Edinburgh then drive to Aberdeen/Inverness

 

[DanNCL]

The disruption and unreliability of Aberdeen services continues.

I would be surprised if Transport Scotland are not seeking an urgent improvement from LNER; it not, they should be.

Lockerbie getting virtually nothing at all from both of the TOCs that are supposed to serve it (TPE and Avanti) will (rightly) be higher up their list of things to tackle than LNER not running 1 or 2 trains to the North of Scotland.

 

[Watershed]

Except the Newcastle drivers travel pass to/from Edinburgh then drive to Aberdeen/Inverness

I'm sure that used not be the case in previous years.

 

[DanNCL]

I'm sure that used not be the case in previous years.

It’s been the case for as long as I can remember. The Inverness requires a driver change at Perth too.

 

[Toby268]

It’s been the case for as long as I can remember. The Inverness requires a driver change at Perth too.

Since when? The ncl driver has always driven from Edinburgh all the way up.

And ncl have a job either way which is Newcastle through to Aberdeen.

It’s been the case for as long as I can remember. The Inverness requires a driver change at Perth too.

Since when? The ncl driver has always driven from Edinburgh all the way up.

And ncl have a job either way which is Newcastle through to Aberdeen.

 

[DanNCL]

Since when? The ncl driver has always driven from Edinburgh all the way up.

And ncl have a job either way which is Newcastle through to Aberdeen.

Maybe it doesn't require a driver change at Perth, but I've definitely seen one happen there many times. My understanding was that an Edinburgh driver took the train to Perth, and the Newcastle driver who had travelled passenger north to Perth took over for the remainder of the trip, and vice versa.

 

[Watershed]

Maybe it doesn't require a driver change at Perth, but I've definitely seen one happen there many times. My understanding was that an Edinburgh driver took the train to Perth, and the Newcastle driver who had travelled passenger north to Perth took over for the remainder of the trip, and vice versa.

That's not the case AFAIK. The driver does have a quick 5 minute "personal needs" break at Perth, hence the slightly longer dwell. But it's a Newcastle driver all the way from Edinburgh - they wouldn't have knowledge of Edinburgh to Perth otherwise.

 

[DanNCL]

That's not the case AFAIK. The driver does have a quick 5 minute "personal needs" break at Perth, hence the slightly longer dwell. But it's a Newcastle driver all the way from Edinburgh - they wouldn't have knowledge of Edinburgh to Perth otherwise.

Ah, that would make sense and would explain why it looks like there's a driver change there!

 

[kkong]

Plus there is also the fact that this has long been the arrangement, and it suits all parties concerned.

It's not currently suiting passengers who travel to/from stations north of Edinburgh.

But it's the railway, so who cares, as long as it suits the railway operations people, eh?

Passengers are clearly not a "concerned party".

 

[Watershed]

It's not currently suiting passengers who travel to/from stations north of Edinburgh.

But it's the railway, so who cares, as long as it suits the railway operations people, eh?

Passengers are clearly not a "concerned party".

Well I think that goes without saying! Unfortunately the railway is far too operationally centred in general.

 

[DanNCL]

It's not currently suiting passengers who travel to/from stations north of Edinburgh.

But it's the railway, so who cares, as long as it suits the railway operations people, eh?

Passengers are clearly not a "concerned party".

Well I think that goes without saying! Unfortunately the railway is far too operationally centred in general.

Indeed. Passengers are generally an afterthought. That said, LNER do seem to be by far one of the better TOCs when it comes to customer service.

Last week I travelled across the Slovenia/Austria border by rail, with a change at Spielfeld Strass. The SZ Intercity train from Ljubljana was late, so the guard phoned ahead and arranged for the connecting OBB local service to wait. That just wouldn't happen in most cases in the UK.

 

[43066]

Last week I travelled across the Slovenia/Austria border by rail, with a change at Spielfeld Strass. The SZ Intercity train from Ljubljana was late, so the guard phoned ahead and arranged for the connecting OBB local service to wait. That just wouldn't happen in most cases in the UK.

That’s probably because, if it did, people like you would be on here endlessly complaining, calling for sackings etc.
over the vastly increased numbers of trains running late.

 

[Falcon1200]

Last week I travelled across the Slovenia/Austria border by rail, with a change at Spielfeld Strass. The SZ Intercity train from Ljubljana was late, so the guard phoned ahead and arranged for the connecting OBB local service to wait.

An interesting event, but with a number of unanswered questions;
How long did the connection need to be held for?
If it had not been held, when was the next service?
Now running late, did it conflict with and delay any other services?
Now running late, did it in turn connect into any other trains which then also had to be held?
Did it have sufficient turnround at destination to return on time?

These are all points considered when deciding whether or not to hold connections.

 

[greyman42]

You also have to consider the fact that there are corresponding early/late Aberdeen workings - and it's long been the case that these are worked in combination with the Inverness service (so the Newcastle driver drives up to Aberdeen/Inverness and then passes over to Inverness/Aberdeen respectively, then working a service the following morning).

Why do they pass over to Aberdeen or Inverness?

 

[Watershed]

Why do they pass over to Aberdeen or Inverness?

The timings of the Inverness service, which only has one train a day in each direction, dictate this. You wouldn't have sufficient hours' rest between shifts if the same driver worked the evening arrival into Inverness as well as the morning departure.

But there are more trains each day to Aberdeen, so they can work an earlier arrival into Aberdeen in order to work the early morning Inverness departure, and vice versa when they work to Inverness.

 

[DanNCL]

That’s probably because, if it did, people like you would be on here endlessly complaining, calling for sackings etc.
over the vastly increased numbers of trains running late.

I wouldn’t complain about it, it’d be a very valid reason for a train running late. And the vast majority of passengers would understand if it was explained that was why the train was running late.

An interesting event, but with a number of unanswered questions;
How long did the connection need to be held for?
If it had not been held, when was the next service?
Now running late, did it conflict with and delay any other services?
Now running late, did it in turn connect into any other trains which then also had to be held?
Did it have sufficient turnround at destination to return on time?

These are all points considered when deciding whether or not to hold connections.

1. 10 minutes delay
2. Next connection would have been 30 minutes later.
3. Not sure if it caused conflicts en-route as a result but quite possible as it involved a single track line.
4. Yes, it connected onto a Vienna bound Railjet which was also held as a result, and that would have had a much higher potential to cause issues running late.
5. Yes it did have enough turnaround time.

Sure it’s not the most difficult thing to do in that example, but it’s a level of customer service you’d rarely see in the UK, especially if the connecting train was from a different TOC. I’m sure most guards would phone ahead to ask but the chances of the connection actually being held are low.

If, say, you were travelling from Edinburgh to Seaham, and the inbound service arrived at Newcastle too late to make the connection, unless it was the last connection of the day there’s virtually zero chance of the connection being held even if only by 2 or 3 minutes you’d be told to wait an hour for the next one.

I’m not going to discuss this further on this thread as I think this would be a topic for elsewhere.

 

[43066]

I wouldn’t complain about it, it’d be a very valid reason for a train running late. And the vast majority of passengers would understand if it was explained that was why the train was running late.

Whereas, if I was on a train that was delayed simply due to waiting for another train, I wouldn’t consider that a valid reason and most certainly would complain about it!

I know it will never, ever be accepted on here, but it’s just not possible or practical to do this other than in a tiny minority of marginal cases such as Cornish branch lines*. This is because it would cause chaos on our intensively operated network, and minimising delay to the greatest number of trains (and therefore passengers) is surely better customer service overall.

*From the sounds of it your Swiss example may be similar to that?

 

[Walter Whigham]

The dialogue on this thread referring to the LNER service north of Edinburgh to and from Inverness has covered Drivers who are Newcastle-based.

What happens to LNER Train Managers working to and from Inverness? Are they also drawn from Newcastle's resources and work an identical diagram to the Drivers, travelling pass and lodging?

 

[Starmill]

Because, with the times and frequency that LNER run to Inverness, it's more efficient to have a Newcastle driver work the service than an Edinburgh driver. An Edinburgh driver would only be able to work the service between Edinburgh and Inverness in one direction and then have to pass back, or lodge. Whereas by using a Newcastle driver you are able to have them work a service between Newcastle and Edinburgh before having a break and then working between Edinburgh and Inverness.

You also have to consider the fact that there are corresponding early/late Aberdeen workings - and it's long been the case that these are worked in combination with the Inverness service (so the Newcastle driver drives up to Aberdeen/Inverness and then passes over to Inverness/Aberdeen respectively, then working a service the following morning).

Otherwise a very long taxi, or again an inefficient Edinburgh turn would be needed to cover these services. Or there would need to be an Aberdeen driver depot, which would probably be equally inefficient due to its small size (I'm surprised that LNER actually have a guards and catering depot in Aberdeen).

Plus there is also the fact that this has long been the arrangement, and it suits all parties concerned. I think the bigger issue is that Edinburgh aren't trained on Inverness, where realistically some of the top link drivers probably should be, in order to be able to cover for a Newcastle driver going sick.

Of course, given there are already a large number of drivers at Inverness who work the route to Perth every day, simply having some of them learn 800s would probably be more robust than the Newcastle lodge turns are, and at a slightly lower long-term cost; enough to make back the cost of the traction course certainly.

But then, that simply isn't the way things are done in this world is it!

 

[Trainbike46]

Of course, given there are already a large number of drivers at Inverness who work the route to Perth every day, simply having some of them learn 800s would probably be more robust than the than the Newcastle lodge turns are, and at a slightly lower long-term cost; enough to make back the cost of the traction course certainly.

But then, that simply isn't the way things are done in this world is it!

So you suggest scotrail operating the LNER service north of Edinburgh, in effect? I can see how that would allow for more efficient diagramming, and wouldn't be that different than the Scotrail-Northern joint service that used to exist