Loco hauled passenger coaches from between 1984 until 1996.

[Quantumspotter]

Hello there,

I hope everyone is enjoying the Easter break?

As my post title says I an looking for any noted rolling stock formations for any passenger services. Be that Intercity, NetworkSouthEast, Scotrail, Regional Railways or anything which was pulled by a diesel or electric traction. The more varied the better. If you have any services details too, that would be great. I am hoping to start building these formations up and eventually run them on my layout, when ever I get it finished. Many thanks in advance.

Kind regards

Quantumspotter.

 

[Iskra]

That's quite a big question you are asking as many services were still loco hauled at this time. If you could be more specific about lines, areas, or type of locomotive that you are interested in, you would probably get better information in return

 

[Bertie the bus]

The Manchester Victoria - Barrow services would probably be a fairly interesting one to model in the late 80's up to about 1990. They comprised of pretty much any old rubbish nobody else wanted. 4 carriage trains of mainly Mk 1's, with the odd Mk 2, in any combination of blue/grey, InterCity, NSE and Regional Railways livery, usually hauled by a 31 in any livery around at the time. By 1992 they were Regional Railways livery Mk 2s.

 

[Peter C]

Hello there,

I hope everyone is enjoying the Easter break?

As my post title says I an looking for any noted rolling stock formations for any passenger services. Be that Intercity, NetworkSouthEast, Scotrail, Regional Railways or anything which was pulled by a diesel or electric traction. The more varied the better. If you have any services details too, that would be great. I am hoping to start building these formations up and eventually run them on my layout, when ever I get it finished. Many thanks in advance.

Kind regards

Quantumspotter.

Hi @Quantumspotter - like @Iskra says, that's quite a big range but perhaps that's the point! I personally really like www.hondawanderer.com for photos of all sorts of trains going back to the 1980s, so I've just had a look on there and found some examples of things I thought were pretty interesting. Obviously it'll depend on how big your layout is as to how much you'll be able to fit on there!
Here are just some examples of what you can find on that site:

50042 Denchworth 30 August 1987

47592 Marshfield 4 November 1989

86247 Watford Gap 17 March 1989

86233 Penkridge 30 March 1991

(I'd also be very interested to hear some more about your layout in the modelling forum!)

-Peter

 

[D6130]

Here are my starters for ten (from my train journals as a guard at Brighton in the mid-1980s):

MONDAY 22/04/85: 1O62, 06 01 Derby-Gatwick Airport: (Mark 2a/b/c stock except for brake): NEA-2TSO-TSO(T)-FK-4TSO Load 9, hauled by 47 608.

MONDAY 22/04/1985: 1O74, 09 58 Manchester Piccadilly-Gatwick Airport (Mark 2a/b/c stock except for brake): NEA-4TSO-FK-TSO(T)-TSO-TSO(T) Load 9, hauled by 47 609

TUESDAY 23/04/1985: 1O62: As per previous day, but hauled by 47 599.

TUESDAY 23/04/1985: 1O74: NEA-FK-5TSO-TSO(T)-TSO Load 9 hauled by 47 608 again.

WEDNESDAY 24/04/1985: 1O62: Same formation hauled by 47 606 "Odin". 1O74: Same formation hauled by 47 599.

THURSDAY 25/04/1985: 1O62: Same formation hauled by 47 597. 1O74: Same formation hauled by 47 624 "Cyclops".

At this time the Inter-City services from the North-West and Midlands to Brighton were temporarily terminating at Gatwick Airport due to the Brighton remodelling and resignalling works. For more train formations from the 1980s, I suggest you look at my regular posts on the 'Back in the Day' thread.

 

[nw1]

Cross-Country trains through Reading from 1982/3 to 1986/7 inclusive were mostly 47s hauling Mk-II coaches. Towards the beginning of this period it was mostly non-air conditioned early Mk-IIs but towards the end an increasing number of air-conditioned coaches appeared.

The occasional service was 50-hauled. ISTR the northbound Poole-Newcastle was 50-hauled in at least some years (1984/85, I think) between Reading and Birmingham, and the southbound morning Manchester-Poole similarly hauled, again in, I think, 1984/85.

North of Birmingham all services (from what I could see) were electric-hauled in 1982/3 to 1984/5 inclusive, but in 1985/6 and 1986/7, a number were diesel hauled throughout, perhaps because of some 86s needed for the Norwich electrification?

InterCity livery was applied to these services at some point, likely late 80s. By 1996 all hauled services on the route had become newer, air-conditioned Mk-IIs (not sure when the older ones were retired). Some services changed loco (diesel<->electric) at Birmingham while some were diesel throughout. Also by this time some services were formed of HSTs.

And finally, an unusual and not-much-discussed feature of NSE: in 1989/90 a number of Waterloo-Southampton '93' stopping trains were 73s push/pulling 4TCs.

 

[hexagon789]

Hello there,

I hope everyone is enjoying the Easter break?

As my post title says I an looking for any noted rolling stock formations for any passenger services. Be that Intercity, NetworkSouthEast, Scotrail, Regional Railways or anything which was pulled by a diesel or electric traction. The more varied the better. If you have any services details too, that would be great. I am hoping to start building these formations up and eventually run them on my layout, when ever I get it finished. Many thanks in advance.

Kind regards

Quantumspotter.

ScotRail:

1980-1985 Edinburgh & Glasgow push-pull:

47/7, 4 Mk3A TSO, Mk3A FO, Mk2F DBSO


1985-1990 E&G push-pull:

47/7, 3 or 4 Mk3A TSO, Mk3A CO, Mk2F DBSO


1982-1990 Edinburgh/Glasgow-Inverness:

47/0 or 47/4 (only /4 booked post-1985) Mk2C BSO, 2 Mk2A TSO, Mk2C TSOT, Mk2C FK (CK from 1985). Strengthening with 2A TSO, 2C BSO or DB Mk1 TSO as required. MK1 BG additional some workings. One set had a BFK vice FK/CK.

Edinburgh-Inverness "The Jacobite" Low Fare push-pull, 1984 & 1985:

47/7, 3 Mk2Z TSO, Mk2Z FK, Mk2F DBSO


Glasgow-Aberdeen Mk3 push-pull set, 1980-1984:

47/7, E&G push-pull set with initially Mk1 RMB between FO and TSOs, Mk2D TSOT from ~1982. Mk3 push-pull sets also used on two Glasgow/Aberdeen 1984-1990 but without catering vehicle, trolley service provided instead as this was launched Edinburgh-Glasgow in 1984.


Glasgow-Aberdeen 1982-1985 Mk2 air-con:

47/4-Mk2A BSO, Mk2E FO, Mk2D TSOT, 4 Mk2D TSO


Glasgow-Aberdeen 1985-1986 Mk2 air-con push-pull

47/7, Mk1 BG, 3 Mk2D TSO, Mk2D TSOT, Mk2E FO (one set had a 2D BFK instead for a short period), Mk2F DBSO


Glasgow-Aberdeen Mk2 push-pull 1986-1990:

47/7, (Mk2Z TSO, two sets of 4 only), 2 Mk2D TSO, Mk2D TSOT, Mk2E FO or from 1987/8 Mk2A FK, Mk2F DBSO

Edinburgh-Aberdeen 1982-1986:
Services almost all provided by HSTs or LHCS from out of region. Only two internal LHCS workings.

Edinburgh-Aberdeen internal push-pull 1986-88:

See Glasgow-Aberdeen 1986-90


Inverness-Aberdeen: 1982-1986

Mk2Z TSO, MK2Z BSO, Mk1 BSOT, 2 Mk2Z TSO


Inverness-Aberdeen: 1987-1989

2MkZ TSO, Mk1 BFK, 2Mk2Z TSO


Inverness-Kyle/Wick&Thurso (Mk1/2Z mixed): 1982-1989

Base set: BG, 2 TSO (2Z or Mk1); Wick/Thurso also with Thurso portion of Mk1 BSOT, 2 TSO

Glasgow-Fort William&Mallaig/Oban 1982-1989 (Mk1/2Z mixed):

Winter: 3 TSO, Mk1 BSK
Summer: TSO, Mk1 BSOT, 3 TSO, Mk1 BSK

Glasgow-Dumfries-Carlisle Mk1 1982-88

3 SK, BSK (From 1987, one set did a Stranraer diagram)

Glasgow-Stranraer Mk2Z, 1985-Summer 1988

4 TSO, BSO (from 1987 one set did a Carlisle diagram)

Glasgow-Stranraer Mk2A/C, Summer 1987-1990

2 TSO, BSO, 2 TSO (one set on Glasgow/Carlisle trip as before)

Miscellaneous:

Evening Glasgow-Arbroath, & Arbroath-Dundee All Mk1 1987:

SK, BSK


Aberdeen-Stonehaven etc locals 1987:

5 SK, BSK

Glasgow-Perth/Dundee 1982:

47/7, 4 2Z TSO, 2Z FK, 2F DBSO
OR
3 Mk1 TSO, Mk1 BFK


Edinburgh-Perth/Dunblane weekdays push-pull 1983-88ish:

47/7, 4 2Z TSO, 2F DBSO (Spare push-pull set)


Probably some I've forgotten.

Can also do WCML, ECML & XC summaries as well but ScotRail is what I model so is my main area of knowledge.

 

[Snow1964]

Back in 1984 nearly all cross country trains to south coast were mk 2, 2A, 2B with a mk1 full brake, with a class 47, it was around this time that many 47s gained ETH (electric train heating)

The Portsmouth - Cardiff trains were 5 mk1s hauled by class 33s (until the class 153 DMUs came along in mid 1980s)

The peak hour trains from Paddington to Oxford and Newbury were mk1 mainly using TSOs and a BSO each end, from memory both class 50s and 47s were common.

The Waterloo - Salisbury - Exeter trains were mk2B stock, with class 50 power

 

[Irascible]

Back in 1984 [snip]

The Waterloo - Salisbury - Exeter trains were mk2B stock, with class 50 power

All of them? when did they pull 33s off? my memory ain't too great, wasn't very old or a spotter so my memory snapshots aren't well organised.

In 1984 you might have still got an occasional train to Barnstaple that wasn't a DMU, not really sure when those ended either. I remember Virgin liveried ( fairly short ) aircon Mk2s on XC services in the SW, obviously in a different time.

 

[JonathanH]

The NSE formations at the end appeared to be broadly intended as something like

Paddington
Mark 1 - 2TSO-CK-FK-BSK-3TSO
Mark 2 - 3TSO-FK-BSO-3TSO

However, this varied depending on stock availability with more CK coaches available than needed for these formations.

Waterloo
Mark 2A/2B/2C
3TSO-BFK-TSO(T)-BFK-3TSO

 

[hexagon789]

The Waterloo - Salisbury - Exeter trains were mk2B stock, with class 50 power

A, B and C. The TSOT were all 2C.

All of them? when did they pull 33s off? my memory ain't too great, wasn't very old or a spotter so my memory snapshots aren't well organised.

Substitutions occurred sometimes but the last booked 33 working was a Sats Only in 1985 which I believe used Mk1/2Z stock instead if the usual 2A/B/C.

In 1984 you might have still got an occasional train to Barnstaple that wasn't a DMU, not really sure when those ended either.

DMU shortages saw some LHCS substitutions as late as 1990. Including one documented working of a 50 on just 2 coaches!

I remember Virgin liveried ( fairly short ) aircon Mk2s on

Inherited from BR, booked 7 coaches but reliability issues meant 6 or even 5 wasn't unheard of. Mixed 2E/F stock.

Mark 2A/2B/2C
3TSO-BFK-TSO(T)-BFK-3TSO

The BFK were booked to be marshalled together, brake van to brake van.

 

[JonathanH]

The BFK were booked to be marshalled together, brake van to brake van.

I have four trips recorded in 1990/1991 where the TSO(T) is recorded in the middle of the two BFKs. Once the TSO(T)s were withdrawn in 1992, the two BFKs went brake to brake.

 

[D6130]

All of them? when did they pull 33s off?

With one or two exceptions already mentioned, the 50s took over from the 33s in 1980. I remember in the early '80s, some of the Waterloo-Salisbury short workings, especially on Saturdays, were still worked by 33s an Mark 1 stock.

 

[hexagon789]

I have four trips recorded in 1990/1991 where the TSO(T) is recorded in the middle of the two BFKs. Once the TSO(T)s were withdrawn in 1992, the two BFKs went brake to brake.

Fair enough, I was just quoting the PTM, this is an entry from 1980 but other years are broadly the same:

 

[JonathanH]

Fair enough, I was just quoting the PTM, this is an entry from 1980 but other years are broadly the same:

View attachment 112850

Ah, that is interesting - so at some point in the 1980s the TSO(T) changed position.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Late 1980's, Newcastle - Liverpool via what was then the new Hazel Grove chord, Class 31/4's with four or five MkII's.

My first floor office overlooked the line about 200 yards west of Hazel Grove station.

 

[D6130]

Fair enough, I was just quoting the PTM, this is an entry from 1980 but other years are broadly the same:

For many years, since the withdrawal of true express services and singling of the line West of Salisbury in 1967, the Waterloo-Exeter trains were always marshalled with the two brake vehicles adjacent - preferably brake end to brake end - in the centre of the train, to facilitate the handling of parcels, luggage and mail by the guard at stations with short platforms where no other staff were available. In Mark 1 days, they were BSKs, with first class accommodation being provided by a pair of CKs. When the change to Mark 2 stock happened, they were BFKs, which allowed the provision of an extra TSO.

Late 1980's, Newcastle - Liverpool via what was then the new Hazel Grove chord, Class 31/4's with four or five MkII's.

Would they not have been Cleethorpes-Sheffield-Manchester-Liverpool services? The Newcastles would - as now - have run via Stalybridge and Huddersfield.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Would they not have been Cleethorpes-Sheffield-Manchester-Liverpool services? The Newcastles would - as now - have run via Stalybridge and Huddersfield.

Quite possibly D6130, (it is almost 35 years ago).

Edit: They were Hull - Liverpool services apparently?

 

[hexagon789]

Ah, that is interesting - so at some point in the 1980s the TSO(T) changed position.

Perhaps for operational convenience; the 1984 PTM has identical formations listed to the 1980 document.

For many years, since the withdrawal of true express services and singling of the line West of Salisbury in 1967, the Waterloo-Exeter trains were always marshalled with the two brake vehicles adjacent - preferably brake end to brake end - in the centre of the train, to facilitate the handling of parcels, luggage and mail by the guard at stations with short platforms where no other staff were available. In Mark 1 days, they were BSKs, with first class accommodation being provided by a pair of CKs. When the change to Mark 2 stock happened, they were BFKs, which allowed the provision of an extra TSO.

Exactly and that was always the reason I understood was behind having two BFKs adjacent in the middle of the train.

 

[GS250]

From memory. Used to go to a bi-annual family get together in Norwich.....so stand to be corrected!

Mid 1980s: Liv St-Norwich usually class 47 load 9/10 mk2 various air con + mk1 RB catering vehicle.
Mid 1980s: Liv St-Kings Lynn usually class 47 load 8/9 mk2 non air con + mk1 Buffet vehicle.
Late 1980s: Liv St-Norwich usually class 86 load 11 mk2 various air con + mk1 catering vehicle.
Late 1980s: Liv St-Kings Lynn usually class 47 (86 to Cambridge on some) load 8/9 mk2 non air con NSE livered + mk1 Buffet vehicle.

The Kings Lynn loco hauled were possibly gone by 1990/91 where as the Norwich services may have been Mk2f + Mk3 catering from early 90s on.

 

[hexagon789]

From memory. Used to go to a bi-annual family get together in Norwich.....so stand to be corrected!

Mid 1980s: Liv St-Norwich usually class 47 load 9/10 mk2 various air con + mk1 RB catering vehicle.
Mid 1980s: Liv St-Kings Lynn usually class 47 load 8/9 mk2 non air con + mk1 Buffet vehicle.
Late 1980s: Liv St-Norwich usually class 86 load 11 mk2 various air con + mk1 catering vehicle.
Late 1980s: Liv St-Kings Lynn usually class 47 (86 to Cambridge on some) load 8/9 mk2 non air con NSE livered + mk1 Buffet vehicle.

The Kings Lynn loco hauled were possibly gone by 1990/91 where as the Norwich services may have been Mk2f + Mk3 catering from early 90s on.

Liverpool Street-Norwich got air-cons from 1981, ex-ECML after they got the last of their HST sets. I believe there was about a year of some sets being air-con 2D and some still 2A until sufficient vehicles were transferred, the 2A sets were concentrated on the Harwich trains but a few Norwich services were still 2A until the changeover was complete.

 

[The exile]

The Portsmouth - Cardiff trains were 5 mk1s hauled by class 33s (until the class 153 DMUs came along in mid 1980s)

Fairly certain that the odd early mark 2 made it into the rakes towards the end -just before the 155s ousted them in 1988. There were certainly some odd formations at times.

 

[hexagon789]

Fairly certain that the odd early mark 2 made it into the rakes towards the end -just before the 155s ousted them in 1988. There were certainly some odd formations at times.

I think it was mainly the odd Mk2Z BFK vice Mk1 CK. Though I've seen a rake marshalled something along the lines of - BSK, CK, Mk2 BFK, SK, SK in a photo.

 

[Magdalia]

Late 1980's, Newcastle - Liverpool via what was then the new Hazel Grove chord, Class 31/4's with four or five MkII's.

Hazel Grove chord opened in May 1986. The loco hauled trains Liverpool-Hull/Cleethorpes were mostly 4 carriages, but the daily Yarmouth train was 5 and 10 on summer Saturdays. Sprinters took over in May 1988.

From memory. Used to go to a bi-annual family get together in Norwich.....so stand to be corrected!

Mid 1980s: Liv St-Norwich usually class 47 load 9/10 mk2 various air con + mk1 RB catering vehicle.
Mid 1980s: Liv St-Kings Lynn usually class 47 load 8/9 mk2 non air con + mk1 Buffet vehicle.
Late 1980s: Liv St-Norwich usually class 86 load 11 mk2 various air con + mk1 catering vehicle.
Late 1980s: Liv St-Kings Lynn usually class 47 (86 to Cambridge on some) load 8/9 mk2 non air con NSE livered + mk1 Buffet vehicle.

The Kings Lynn loco hauled were possibly gone by 1990/91 where as the Norwich services may have been Mk2f + Mk3 catering from early 90s on.

Cambridge line trains were a mixture of load 9 and load 7 because of platform length constraints at Liverpool Street.

 

[GS250]

Hazel Grove chord opened in May 1986. The loco hauled trains Liverpool-Hull/Cleethorpes were mostly 4 carriages, but the daily Yarmouth train was 5 and 10 on summer Saturdays. Sprinters took over in May 1988.

Cambridge line trains were a mixture of load 9 and load 7 because of platform length constraints at Liverpool Street.

I believe there was only or two platforms that could handle the longer Norwich expresses back then?

I believe the King's Lynn services were the last main line consists to carry the early MK1 BR Buffet vehicles? The one with the two windows that didn't have vents.

 

[JonathanH]

I believe the King's Lynn services were the last main line consists to carry the early MK1 BR Buffet vehicles? The one with the two windows that didn't have vents.

The RMBs went to Intercity when displaced from the Kings Lynn service and continued in use with Anglia into privatisation.

The rest of the stock off the Kings Lynn services went to Old Oak Common for Thames services, displacing Mark 1 corridor stock and unfacelifted early Mark 2s.

 

[Merle Haggard]

(..)

I believe the King's Lynn services were the last main line consists to carry the early MK1 BR Buffet vehicles? The one with the two windows that didn't have vents.

In the mid 1990s there was a morning up W.C.M.L. service (can't remember its origin, but called at the Trent Valley stations and arrived Euston about 08.30) that included an RMB, 1880 every time I saw it.

 

[hexagon789]

The RMBs went to Intercity when displaced from the Kings Lynn service and continued in use with Anglia into privatisation.

I thought Anglia used Mk1 RBRs?

 

[JonathanH]

I thought Anglia used Mk1 RBRs?

Yes, but they had RMB 1842 as I rode it in 1995 on a working from Norwich.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-loco-hauled-sets-after-privatisation.157570/

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, but they had RMB 1842 as I rode it in 1995 on a working from Norwich.

I only ask as I understood the King's Lynn sets were vacuum braked, so any RMBs would either need to be dual braked or converted to air to run with the GEML Mk2 sets. 1842 was dual braked I understand.