London 2012: Third transport union rejects £850 pay offer

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NY Yankee

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A third union has rejected an £850 bonus for London Underground (LU) employees to work during the Olympics.

The Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) union said it turned down the deal and called on LU to remove "the array of strings attached".

Last week both Unite and the Transport Salaried Staffs' Association refused the offers after LU's "demand for total flexibility".

LU said it was disappointed by the RMT stance and was seeking further talks.

RMT general secretary Bob Crow said: "Our reps have made it clear that we want the Olympics to succeed and will work within the existing frameworks in a co-operative manner to ensure this happens.

"All we want is a deal that ensures that the extra work and efforts of our staff are fairly rewarded with a substantial Olympic bonus of the same value made to all grades without the array of strings currently attached."

Howard Collins, London Underground's Chief Operating officer, said: "Our proposals about how we can fairly reward staff over the London 2012 Games would see station, maintenance, service control staff and operational managers receive up to £850 subject to attendance, customer satisfaction scores and working flexibly in order to deliver a successful Games.

"An agreement has already been reached with drivers to compensate them for working more and longer hours during the Games.

"We have been absolutely clear in defining what flexibility we need from those groups of staff we will need to work differently this summer.

"We are disappointed that RMT representatives have misunderstood our offer and are actively seeking further talks to resolve this issue."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17426858

If the Tube employees strike during the Olympics, it will be a cataclysmic disaster. The city of London will shut down. IMO, they're not entitled to any bonus besides overtime. NYC subway employees don't get bonuses when the Yankees go to the World Series.
 
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Isnt the NY Subway a 24 hour model though? Ours isnt and therein lies the problem really. All rosters are to be torn up and new ones created with much longer working hours and a big change in passenger numbers going through some stations.
 

SS4

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I don't know exactly what LUL want but £850 (less tax?) is a pittance for "total flexibility" if taken literally.

OP said:
NYC subway employees don't get bonuses when the Yankees go to the World Series.
World series is one the biggest misnomers out there and cannot be compared to the Olympics. A fairer comparison is when England play at Wembley in a competitive game
 

Deerfold

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If the Tube employees strike during the Olympics, it will be a cataclysmic disaster. The city of London will shut down. IMO, they're not entitled to any bonus besides overtime. NYC subway employees don't get bonuses when the Yankees go to the World Series.
No, we're used to tube strikes. Everything will run a bit slower and hopefully we'll have good weather to walk the shorter trips. We don't really do catclysmic disaster.
 

Ivo

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"All we want is a deal that ensures that the extra work and efforts of our staff are fairly rewarded with a substantial Olympic bonus of the same value made to all grades without the array of strings currently attached."
The emphasis says it all. Just for once Bob, shut up.
 

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As I don't know what the offer was, and what strings wer eor were not attached, I don't feel I am in a position to conclude whether the rejection was justified or not. However, reading between the lines, it may be that the RMT want non driving staff to receive an identical package as driving staff.
 

Daniel

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The RMT's arguments are that it's a lower offer than the DLR and LOROL have received in addition to LU's offer being the only one with changes to the framework of agreement.

The two changes I know about are forced overtime of up to 2 hours after your finishing time if your relief is late, and forced overtime on a rest day if no cover is available elsewhere. There are other changes to the framework proposed by LU but I don't recall the RMT actually saying what they were.

IMO, no-one should have had a bonus, but when they give one to the DLR, LOROL, and LU ASLEF drivers, what do they expect.
 

Greenback

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The RMT's arguments are that it's a lower offer than the DLR and LOROL have received in addition to LU's offer being the only one with changes to the framework of agreement.

The two changes I know about are forced overtime of up to 2 hours after your finishing time if your relief is late, and forced overtime on a rest day if no cover is available elsewhere. There are other changes to the framework proposed by LU but I don't recall the RMT actually saying what they were.

IMO, no-one should have had a bonus, but when they give one to the DLR, LOROL, and LU ASLEF drivers, what do they expect.
I am surprised that you appear to think that changes to terms of conditions of this nature should not be accompanied by some sort of compensation! It effectively means that staff on a Rest Day would not be able to plan anything for that day as they may be called into work. Presumably this could be at short notice?

Personally, I would prefer not to have my T&C's changed at all, but if they had to be, I would expect this increased flexibility on my part to be acknowledged in a meaningful way. To me, this would mean additional leave to be taken when convenient for me, or additional payments for the inconvenience.
 

Daniel

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I am surprised that you appear to think that changes to terms of conditions of this nature should not be accompanied by some sort of compensation! It effectively means that staff on a Rest Day would not be able to plan anything for that day as they may be called into work. Presumably this could be at short notice?

On the contrary, I don't think there should be any changes to the framework of agreement, I believe we should simply have enough staff to to the job.
I will highlight the fact that considering where I work I cannot really support certain things in a public place.

With regards to short notice, yes I assume it would be short notice - then again I only get 28 days notice of my duties anyway, rest days are guaranteed from then, but up to a week before earlier can be changed to nights etc etc, and up to 24 hours before work locations and start times can be changed by up to 2 hours.
 

Greenback

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On the contrary, I don't think there should be any changes to the framework of agreement, I believe we should simply have enough staff to to the job.
Quite right. However, a temporary event like the Olympics means that it's probably not worth recruiting temporary staff to cover every eventuality, so I recognise that some additional flexibility will be required.

I will highlight the fact that considering where I work I cannot really support certain things in a public place.
I appreciate that you need to be careful.

With regards to short notice, yes I assume it would be short notice - then again I only get 28 days notice of my duties anyway, rest days are guaranteed from then, but up to a week before earlier can be changed to nights etc etc, and up to 24 hours before work locations and start times can be changed by up to 2 hours.
That is not too far out of synch with main line TOC's. TfL will no doubt require greater flexibility than is allowed for in the current agreements, and I don't think it is fair to expect staff to agree to this without some sort of reward or incentive. It's the principle of it!
 

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The RMT's arguments are that it's a lower offer than the DLR and LOROL have received in addition to LU's offer being the only one with changes to the framework of agreement.
.
To be fair to the DLR they are going to be one busy set of bunnies given that STI is in the heart of the Olympic village and they are going to be working as late as 0330(PSA's anayway) im not sure how late the tube sa re going to be running either but i do know that DLR are testing high frequency services a lot more now in the run up.

Being flexible should be rewarded though - I just dont think comparing DLR to all LUL is quite fair as what are station staff at West Ruislip going to be doing late at night? Probably nothind and not even open so why should htey be renumerated equally to someone who is at any east london lul station?

tis a fine balance given how many staff work for them too.
 

notadriver

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That's a slippery road comparing staff roles/jobs/locations in my opinion. The next question will be why should a tube operator on an automatic line (Central, Victoria, Jubilee) be paid the same as a T/op on other lines ?! :o
 

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To be fair to the DLR they are going to be one busy set of bunnies given that STI is in the heart of the Olympic village and they are going to be working as late as 0330(PSA's anayway) im not sure how late the tube sa re going to be running either but i do know that DLR are testing high frequency services a lot more now in the run up.

Being flexible should be rewarded though - I just dont think comparing DLR to all LUL is quite fair as what are station staff at West Ruislip going to be doing late at night? Probably nothind and not even open so why should htey be renumerated equally to someone who is at any east london lul station?

tis a fine balance given how many staff work for them too.
That's a slippery road comparing staff roles/jobs/locations in my opinion. The next question will be why should a tube operator on an automatic line (Central, Victoria, Jubilee) be paid the same as a T/op on other lines ?! :o
I agree. But without knowing th efull details of the extra flexibility, I can make no comment as to the actual rejection of the deal.

Could it be the case that someone at West Ruislip could be called in to cover in East London though? It seems possible to me that if all staff and all grades are expected to have RD's cancelled they could be called in anywhere, no matter where they are normally based?
 

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I agree. But without knowing th efull details of the extra flexibility, I can make no comment as to the actual rejection of the deal.

Could it be the case that someone at West Ruislip could be called in to cover in East London though? It seems possible to me that if all staff and all grades are expected to have RD's cancelled they could be called in anywhere, no matter where they are normally based?
As a guess (and little more) I'd say that they may be moved within the local area with a minimum of notice but I'd not imagine that staff at West Ruislip would be asked to go to East London within a couple of hours since surely it'd be logistically impossible but they could be asked to go to Ickenham for example. Or they may look for a pool of volunteers first, eg perhaps those who live close enough to make it more convenient.

I really am doing little more than guessing :lol:
 

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That's a slippery road comparing staff roles/jobs/locations in my opinion. The next question will be why should a tube operator on an automatic line (Central, Victoria, Jubilee) be paid the same as a T/op on other lines ?! :o
It may be just that but you have to at least approach the question and possibilities surrounding it. Solidarity is all well and good but if you're working in the east and dealing with greater crowds and more difficult situations then your compatriot in the west then wouldnt you feel a little aggrieved at them getting the same bonus as you for doing less?


We all really dont know the full proposals surrounding this as there is very little information out there but i still think if you are being asked to work more and for longer then you should be rewarded for it.
 

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Are these bonuses likely to be taxed? I'm not entirely sure how it works with bonuses but surely if it were added onto the normal pay packet it would be taxed?
 

notadriver

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Yes all taxed in the normal way. Workers (well usually drivers) already on more than 42.5k will be taxed at 40 percent on that :o. Oh well I guess we are lucky to have a job and have no idea on what it's like to live on job seekers allowance.
 

notadriver

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It may be just that but you have to at least approach the question and possibilities surrounding it. Solidarity is all well and good but if you're working in the east and dealing with greater crowds and more difficult situations then your compatriot in the west then wouldnt you feel a little aggrieved at them getting the same bonus as you for doing less?


We all really dont know the full proposals surrounding this as there is very little information out there but i still think if you are being asked to work more and for longer then you should be rewarded for it.
I think you have a point - particular for station/customer facing staff.
 

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As a guess (and little more) I'd say that they may be moved within the local area with a minimum of notice but I'd not imagine that staff at West Ruislip would be asked to go to East London within a couple of hours since surely it'd be logistically impossible but they could be asked to go to Ickenham for example. Or they may look for a pool of volunteers first, eg perhaps those who live close enough to make it more convenient.

I really am doing little more than guessing :lol:
I would tend to agree that, in practice, there would be less chance of someone in West London being called in to East London. It would not really be worth their while by the time travellign time was taken into account.

However, if all staff have been asked to be more flexible, then all staff should be rewarded. After all, they could potentially have Rest Days cancelled wherever they are. if, on the other hand, TfL only require certian groups or locations to have their T&C's changed, then the rewards should be limited to those groups so affected.

As you say, though, no one seems to know the fine details of what is on the table, and the devil is usually in the detail rather than the principle!
 

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A couple of bits to pick up on,

The 'shift locations can be changed' has historically been on your own group only. As an example, the Edgware Group on the Northern line includes all stations between Edgware and Chalk Farm. Recently (last year) LUL uploaded an un-agreed version of the framework of agreement for station staff to the intranet. This station that you could be moved off of your group to wherever the business needed you. After a fairly lengthy argument this was eventually changed to that you could be put on the group next to your group - and that, I believe, is as far as it goes for now... unless you're in the still fairly new "Special Requirements Team" and can be put all over the place.

Again with regards to the east/west divide, obviously it'll get busier everywhere, but yes those in the east will be busier - but how would you differentiate between who'd be busy enough to deserve a bonus and for who it's just normal passenger load?

With regards to people asking if LU would be running later - it's currently 24 hours on the opening & closing ceremonies, IIRC a service 3 hours later on lines serving the Olympic park and 2 hours later on other lines, in addition to a third peak service at 23:00.

Finally, with regards to those not in east London not deserving a bonus... what about service control staff? A far increased workload considering they're staffed 24 hours and most locations go from 3/2 to 1 member of staff overnight, but the actual control locations (may or)may not be located in East London..?
 

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That's a good pint about control staff, Daniel. As far as I know, though, any lump sum would be in recognition for the temporary alterations to contractual terms, rather than recognition that the sytem and therefore some jobs, may be busier?
 

Daniel

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That's a good pint about control staff, Daniel. As far as I know, though, any lump sum would be in recognition for the temporary alterations to contractual terms, rather than recognition that the sytem and therefore some jobs, may be busier?

Indeed, that's the offer being put forward by LU, but then from what I understand part of the RMT's argument is that the DLR/LOROL bonus' didn't have changes to framework along with them - so therefore are effectively just a payment for it being busier, (and an attendance allowance).
 

Greenback

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Indeed, that's the offer being put forward by LU, but then from what I understand part of the RMT's argument is that the DLR/LOROL bonus' didn't have changes to framework along with them - so therefore are effectively just a payment for it being busier, (and an attendance allowance).
I don't think I agree with the RMT's argument in that case!
 

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Indeed, that's the offer being put forward by LU, but then from what I understand part of the RMT's argument is that the DLR/LOROL bonus' didn't have changes to framework along with them - so therefore are effectively just a payment for it being busier, (and an attendance allowance).
DLRs bonus is indeed with regards of changes to their contracts and rosters being changed due to them running longer on a lot of days during the Olympics. Not only that but with a lot of vehicles being outstanled also then the PSAs will have to be in attendance with those vehicles over night until system start up in the morning so that the trains get booted up correctly.

It is not just a payment for it 'being busier'.
 

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It is not just a payment for it 'being busier'.

My apologies in that case, as I'm sure you can understand, where I don't even hear everything with regards to negotiations within my own sub-company, I hear virtually nothing about elsewhere in the business, except press releases from RMT/LU.
 

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My apologies in that case, as I'm sure you can understand, where I don't even hear everything with regards to negotiations within my own sub-company, I hear virtually nothing about elsewhere in the business, except press releases from RMT/LU.
No, thats cool. Like always theres lots of heresay and miss information when it comes to negotiating packages accross TfL companies. Its only normal to get confused by the lot of them :D
 

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Engineering workers on London Underground have voted to accept a payment of £850 each for working during the Olympic Games.

The Unite union, which represents hundreds of engineering, electrical, power control and management workers, said the offer was accepted by 4-1 in a ballot.

Regional secretary Peter Kavanagh said: "London Underground did the right thing by recognising the extra work our members will be expected to do during the Olympics. There were disagreements but we worked them out through negotiation."

The union is planning to ballot more than 20,000 bus workers in the capital for industrial action after protesting that no extra Olympic payment was being offered.

Unite has called for a £500 payment to recognise the "massive increase" in workload during the Games this summer, saying that 800,000 extra passengers are expected to travel on buses.

Mr Kavanagh added: "They are the only transport workers in London who will not receive an award for their major contribution to keeping London moving during the Olympics.

"London's bus operators' failure to even talk to Unite about an Olympic award, and Mayor Boris Johnson's refusal to intervene, means there is a very real prospect of a capital-wide bus strike."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/9260066/London-2012-Olympics-850-cash-bonus-for-London-Underground-engineers-to-work-during-Games.html

I'm glad they settled that issue. A strike during the Olympics would be devastating. It would make the city of London look bad and it would inconvenience the thousands of people attending the games. I hope the bus operators do the same. The city should be united during the games, not divided. London will be in the spotlight for those two magical weeks.
 

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I'm glad they settled that issue. A strike during the Olympics would be devastating. It would make the city of London look bad and it would inconvenience the thousands of people attending the games. I hope the bus operators do the same. The city should be united during the games, not divided. London will be in the spotlight for those two magical weeks.
So being united is kow-towing to management demands? The very virtue of being in the spotlight means that it can't be swept under the rug. Contrary to popular belief unions do not strike because it's been a slow week at union HQ. Perhaps union demands are too high, especially if no overtime is involved but perhaps it's justified? Why not reward those staff who themselves must battle Olympic travel to transport visitors around smoothly? It would be a good gesture of solidarity: the city should be united during the games, not divided. London will be in the spotlight for those two magical weeks.
 

NY Yankee

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I'm not that familiar with British currency, but £850 seems like a decent amount of money. It's not like they're getting nothing. Across the pond, both of my parents are in unions. Getting back to the topic, people should be able to enjoy the Olympics and the great city hosting it. The last thing on their minds should be a Tube strike.
 
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