London Buses Discussion

[duncombec]

Mod note:
Please provide the link to this post. You should also ensure that your post is accessible by copying and pasting the text rather than providing a screenshot. This is a requirement of forum rules.

Just to note that the post is already in "non-screenshot" form in my post #1893, 12 messages further up the page. TWBG's screenshot was a repeat of the same post.

 

[Edsmith]

How long has the ieTram fiasco been going on, it seems like it's been years since the new contract for the 358 was awarded? I wonder whether Go-Ahead and TFL have wondered if it may have been easier just to specify standard E200EVs instead if they wanted to get electric vehicles into Orpington.

It might have been better to continue with the existing Citaros and Streetlites? When the route next comes up for tender single deckers with a better range might be available.

 

[johncrossley]

It is probably worth mentioning that opportunity charging is a tried and tested system. Probably the majority of electric buses in Europe outside the UK use pantograph charging. The great benefit of it is that it enables electric buses to be used almost anywhere. In the Netherlands they use them in the countryside on routes with lengthy sections of 80 km/h running which requires a lot more power than routes that mostly run at low speed and spend a large proportion of time stopped as is mostly the case in London. The 358 is a long route but also a slow route so isn't the biggest test of an electric bus.

 

[Goldfish62]

It is probably worth mentioning that opportunity charging is a tried and tested system. Probably the majority of electric buses in Europe outside the UK use pantograph charging. The great benefit of it is that it enables electric buses to be used almost anywhere. In the Netherlands they use them in the countryside on routes with lengthy sections of 80 km/h running which requires a lot more power than routes that mostly run at low speed and spend a large proportion of time stopped as is mostly the case in London. The 358 is a long route but also a slow route so isn't the biggest test of an electric bus.

The point with the Irizars to be used on the 358 is that they have small batteries which reduce weight (and therefore increase carrying capacity) and cost. They cannot do anywhere near a day's work on a single charge or even with a top up every few trips. Ideally they need a top up after every trip, but can miss out occasionally.

The buses you cite still need large batteries. They're no different from an E200EV in that respect, for which an opp charge version exists for the sort of routes you describe.

 

[TWBG]

It might have been better to continue with the existing Citaros and Streetlites? When the route next comes up for tender single deckers with a better range might be available.

The Citaros date back to 2015 and/or they may have become rather unreliable for the route

The Citaros date back to 2015 and/or they may have become rather unreliable for the route

It’s the same issue with X26/SL7’s WVLs which are more than 10 years old and which need to be replaced by existing hybrids (because of the sheer length of the route, electric buses can’t be introduced because no electric bus could do it for a full day)

 

[Goldfish62]

It’s the same issue with X26/SL7’s WVLs which are more than 10 years old and which need to be replaced by existing hybrids (because of the sheer length of the route, electric buses can’t be introduced because no electric bus could do it for a full day)

No reason at all why electric buses can't be introduced. It will however require top-up charging during the day either via opportunity charging or running back to the garage. Both of course increase PVR and hence cost. The alternative is fuel cell, which wouldn't increase PVR, but would certainly increase cost.

The SL7 will go over to zero emission at some stage, possibly the next contract. It's just what's actually selected for it is the question.

 

[MotCO]

No reason at all why electric buses can't be introduced. It will however require top-up charging during the day either via opportunity charging or running back to the garage. Both of course increase PVR and hence cost. The alternative is fuel cell, which wouldn't increase PVR, but would certainly increase cost.

The SL7 will go over to zero emission at some stage, possibly the next contract. It's just what's actually selected for it is the question.

Isn't the contract for the X26 out to tender? I wonder if any announcement is being delayed while suitable electric vehicles are identified.

 

[MasterSpenny]

Isn't the contract for the X26 out to tender? I wonder if any announcement is being delayed while suitable electric vehicles are identified.

I can see the operator that wins it ordering electrics against the contract on a hybrid route to release them to SL7 since I don’t know what electric could do it, and hydrogen will have a lot of problems

 

[Blindtraveler]

I suspect the SL7 will go over to hybrid and stay that way for some time. I have done the route end to end on a hybrid and, other than it not having particularly appropriate seats for such a lengthy journey, it performed well with the hybrid system kicking in particularly where traffic was heavy and we were crawling at a couple of miles an hour; the diesel firing up and helping with the longer faster stretches. Refurbish a bunch of hybrids with luggage stacks, high back seats and USB charging and you're onto a winner.

 

[Snow1964]

No reason at all why electric buses can't be introduced. It will however require top-up charging during the day either via opportunity charging or running back to the garage. Both of course increase PVR and hence cost. The alternative is fuel cell, which wouldn't increase PVR, but would certainly increase cost.

The SL7 will go over to zero emission at some stage, possibly the next contract. It's just what's actually selected for it is the question.

The X26 (which is becoming the SL7) used to use 12m Citaro buses, but when TfL rebuilt Croydon bus station they made it impossible for this length as they designed it for shorter buses.

It is not possible to operate the route all day with a double deck unless it is a tri-axle, because the number of batteries required would exceed the 2axle weight limit. So TfLs shortsightedness at Croydon has forced them into either Opportunity charging at termini or expensive hydrogen buses.

It appears that the additional buses for next weeks frequency increase and renumbering to SL7 are a batch of 11 year old Volvo B9 Wrightbus Gemini 2 (fleet Numbers WVL49x), but I don't know if they are getting luggage racks

 

[MasterSpenny]

The X26 (which is becoming the SL7) used to use 12m Citaro buses, but when TfL rebuilt Croydon bus station they made it impossible for this length as they designed it for shorter buses.

It is not possible to operate the route all day with a double deck unless it is a tri-axle, because the number of batteries required would exceed the 2axle weight limit. So TfLs shortsightedness at Croydon has forced them into either Opportunity charging at termini or expensive hydrogen buses.

It appears that the additional buses for next weeks frequency increase and renumbering to SL7 are a batch of 11 year old Volvo B9 Wrightbus Gemini 2 (fleet Numbers WVL49x), but I don't know if they are getting luggage racks

The redesign of West Croydon Bus Station must be the reason why TA1 was used on route 12 instead of X68.

It’s definitely from route 101, I have seen an image of WVL493 with branding getting applied:
not my picture, I got sent this on Discord (discord.gg)
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...6/1139958169569865839/IMG-20230812-WA0036.png

Route 101 has gained LX09s as replacements, I’m guessing by LVF (lvf.io) they have transferred and the pair of LX60 WVLs are out now (WVL486 still needs to transfer as currently on route 101). Full conversion may mean rest are from 147. I always thought that it was the reason 129 got converted to E operation.

 

[Edsmith]

The X26 (which is becoming the SL7) used to use 12m Citaro buses, but when TfL rebuilt Croydon bus station they made it impossible for this length as they designed it for shorter buses.

It is not possible to operate the route all day with a double deck unless it is a tri-axle, because the number of batteries required would exceed the 2axle weight limit. So TfLs shortsightedness at Croydon has forced them into either Opportunity charging at termini or expensive hydrogen buses.

It appears that the additional buses for next weeks frequency increase and renumbering to SL7 are a batch of 11 year old Volvo B9 Wrightbus Gemini 2 (fleet Numbers WVL49x), but I don't know if they are getting luggage racks

I don't think that is correct, I'm pretty sure 12m buses could still use West Croydon bus station and even if they can't the X26 could go via Poplar Walk and wouldn't need to enter the bus station.

 

[MasterSpenny]

With today being a Sunday, as I post this route 433 is full e.City Gold. First time this has happened so far (at least its not 322 situation) and never be full EV despite it being officially allocated

 

[Busaholic]

The X26 (which is becoming the SL7) used to use 12m Citaro buses, but when TfL rebuilt Croydon bus station they made it impossible for this length as they designed it for shorter buses.

It is not possible to operate the route all day with a double deck unless it is a tri-axle, because the number of batteries required would exceed the 2axle weight limit. So TfLs shortsightedness at Croydon has forced them into either Opportunity charging at termini or expensive hydrogen buses.

It appears that the additional buses for next weeks frequency increase and renumbering to SL7 are a batch of 11 year old Volvo B9 Wrightbus Gemini 2 (fleet Numbers WVL49x), but I don't know if they are getting luggage racks

That's all very interesting and, if true, concerning as to TfL's shortsightedness. Could you possibly provide any confirmatory sources on restrictions on the length of buses after the rebuilding? Thanks.

 

[Goldfish62]

That's all very interesting and, if true, concerning as to TfL's shortsightedness. Could you possibly provide any confirmatory sources on restrictions on the length of buses after the rebuilding? Thanks.

I'm getting very confused here. Why are we talking about the X26/SL7 not being able to use longer buses when it doesn't serve West Croydon bus station anyway?

Have I missed something?

 

[Busaholic]

I'm getting very confused here. Why are we talking about the X26/SL7 not being able to use longer buses when it doesn't serve West Croydon bus station anyway?

Have I missed something?

As far as my posting was concerned, I was just picking up on the bus station situation, if true, rather than the buses to work the SL7. However, were TfL to decide at some future point that the SL7 should access the bus station, along with at least one other SL route, it would be a shame for it not to be able to if its buses were too long. Confused? Must admit, lots of hypotheticals there, but would still like a definitive answer.

 

[London Trains]

I'm getting very confused here. Why are we talking about the X26/SL7 not being able to use longer buses when it doesn't serve West Croydon bus station anyway?

Have I missed something?

It does serve West Croydon Bus Station, currently it terminates and stands at Delta Point on Wellesley Road, then turns into Station Road, picks up at one of the stops on the road, then turns into and runs through the bus station back to Station Road.

I believe from this Saturday it is also going to stand in the bus station, by turning from Wellesley Road into St Michael's Road, dropping off at the alighting point and standing in the bus station, then turning onto Station Road, then as above. The 367 will move out of the bus station and stand at Delta Point on Wellesley Road as the X26 does now.

 

[Goldfish62]

It does serve West Croydon Bus Station, currently it terminates and stands at Delta Point on Wellesley Road, then turns into Station Road, picks up at one of the stops on the road, then turns into and runs through the bus station back to Station Road.

I believe from this Saturday it is also going to stand in the bus station, by turning from Wellesley Road into St Michael's Road, dropping off at the alighting point and standing in the bus station, then turning onto Station Road, then as above. The 367 will move out of the bus station and stand at Delta Point on Wellesley Road as the X26 does now.

Ah yes, you're right.

However, it's a load of nonsense about 12m buses not being able to serve the bus station. BYD E400EVs don't have any problem manoeuvring to and from stops or stands in the bus station and they have an identical wheelbase (5.9m) to a 12m Citaro. There is clearly plenty of room.

If you want to see somewhere where it's really tight travel north of Sloane Square on a 12m E200EV on the 360.

The issue is limited capacity for standing buses.

 

[busesrusuk]

The redesign of West Croydon Bus Station must be the reason why TA1 was used on route 12 instead of X68.

It’s definitely from route 101, I have seen an image of WVL493 with branding getting applied:
not my picture, I got sent this on Discord (discord.gg)
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...6/1139958169569865839/IMG-20230812-WA0036.png

Route 101 has gained LX09s as replacements, I’m guessing by LVF (lvf.io) they have transferred and the pair of LX60 WVLs are out now (WVL486 still needs to transfer as currently on route 101). Full conversion may mean rest are from 147. I always thought that it was the reason 129 got converted to E operation.

A couple of points on your post. Its interesting that the extra buses have retained dual doors and presumably are not fitted with additional luggage racks. Also of note is that the branded buses have the route number prominently displayed unlike the previous two routes (unless they have recently been added).

I ma sure I have seen that some of this batch of WVL's have headed to Go North West for the Bee network. I'm sure ive seen a pic of a refurbished one recently plus the fact that a number of them went to Brighton to replace the bendies to. Presumably they wanted Volvo's over E400's of which there are presumably a number spare.

I am also interested in seeing what evidence there is to say that there are any length restrictions in West Croydon Bus station. One would assume that it would be signed a such.

With reference to TA1 and its non use on the X68, my memory of meetings that I attended back in the day is that it was due to a weight restriction on a bridge somewhere in West Norwood which put the mockers on its use on the X68 - nothing to do with West Croydon bus station but happy to be corrected...

 

[Goldfish62]

With reference to TA1 and its non use on the X68, my memory of meetings that I attended back in the day is that it was due to a weight restriction on a bridge somewhere in West Norwood which put the mockers on its use on the X68 - nothing to do with West Croydon bus station but happy to be corrected...

Quite apart the fact it's such an unreliable vehicle you really wouldn't want it allocated to a low frequency route.

 

[cnjb8]

A couple of points on your post. Its interesting that the extra buses have retained dual doors and presumably are not fitted with additional luggage racks. Also of note is that the branded buses have the route number prominently displayed unlike the previous two routes (unless they have recently been added).

I ma sure I have seen that some of this batch of WVL's have headed to Go North West for the Bee network. I'm sure ive seen a pic of a refurbished one recently plus the fact that a number of them went to Brighton to replace the bendies to. Presumably they wanted Volvo's over E400's of which there are presumably a number spare.

I am also interested in seeing what evidence there is to say that there are any length restrictions in West Croydon Bus station. One would assume that it would be signed a such.

With reference to TA1 and its non use on the X68, my memory of meetings that I attended back in the day is that it was due to a weight restriction on a bridge somewhere in West Norwood which put the mockers on its use on the X68 - nothing to do with West Croydon bus station but happy to be corrected...

AFAIK all LJ61s earmarked for Manchester have already transferred there, with only around 5 LX60s to go north still

 

[Busaholic]

Quite apart the fact it's such an unreliable vehicle you really wouldn't want it allocated to a low frequency route.

Was it not a scheduled 'extra' on the 12? The X68 would not lend itself to such a bus, presumably.

 

[busesrusuk]

Was it not a scheduled 'extra' on the 12? The X68 would not lend itself to such a bus, presumably.

It was allocated a specific duty to avoid type training the whole route 12 rota...

 

[Goldfish62]

I spotted a Superloop liveried WVL without any blinds going through Worcester Park earlier. Couldn't ID it unfortunately.

 

[MasterSpenny]

Todays tenders look interesting, my opinion is mainly routes W7 and W8. Both are being electrified as expected. If Alexander Dennis order logbook for orders drop significantly it could get BDEs for common fleet with 17 and 43. For W8, to keep a native common fleet at PB, they could go with MetroDeckers (despite their unreliability on the 134 and 317)
Link to the message I got of them:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/716761129849978920/1140973156413231225/IMG_9917.png

 

[Dstock7080]

I spotted a Superloop liveried WVL without any blinds going through Worcester Park earlier. Couldn't ID it unfortunately.

WVL 493 is one.

Also of note is that the branded buses have the route number prominently displayed unlike the previous two routes (unless they have recently been added).

SL6 and SL8 buses have had route numbers added to livery recently.

 

[GusB]

Please remember that your posts need to be accessible, so any text must be in a readable format - you should copy and paste text from external sources, rather than post screenshots.

In addition, jargon should be defined, so if you're referring to a specific depot, please include the depot name and not just the depot code.

Finally, if you are posting information about route changes etc. you should specify the source, preferably with a link to a verifiable source.

 

[Mikey C]

Todays tenders look interesting, my opinion is mainly routes W7 and W8. Both are being electrified as expected. If Alexander Dennis order logbook for orders drop significantly it could get BDEs for common fleet with 17 and 43. For W8, to keep a native common fleet at PB, they could go with MetroDeckers (despite their unreliability on the 134 and 317)
Link to the message I got of them:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/716761129849978920/1140973156413231225/IMG_9917.png

Interesting that every tender on that list is for new electric buses, that must be a first.

 

[MotCO]

Todays tenders look interesting, my opinion is mainly routes W7 and W8. Both are being electrified as expected. If Alexander Dennis order logbook for orders drop significantly it could get BDEs for common fleet with 17 and 43. For W8, to keep a native common fleet at PB, they could go with MetroDeckers (despite their unreliability on the 134 and 317)
Link to the message I got of them:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/716761129849978920/1140973156413231225/IMG_9917.png

Yes, there are some interesting points. Firstly, all are for new electric buses - at least 86 buses in total. And some earlier comments sugggest that AD's order book is quite full, so I wonder who will supply them? Wright and Volvo BZL must be in with a shout. Maybe the new Yutong double decker for Abellio's 306?
Also, there are some small single deckers - currently the 379 is with 8.8 mtr Streetlites and S3 with 9.0 mtr E200s. What electric vehicles can replace them? Solo EVs seem to be the only bus of that size.

Interesting that every tender on that list is for new electric buses, that must be a first.

Yes, I noticed that. Maybe a sign that the existing buses are all getting too old to support a 7 year contract, and there are insufficient buses to redeploy from other routes.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, there are some interesting points. Firstly, all are for new electric buses - at least 86 buses in total. And some earlier comments sugggest that AD's order book is quite full, so I wonder who will supply them? Wright and Volvo BZL must be in with a shout. Maybe the new Yutong double decker for Abellio's 306?
Also, there are some small single deckers - currently the 379 is with 8.8 mtr Streetlites and S3 with 9.0 mtr E200s. What electric vehicles can replace them? Solo EVs seem to be the only bus of that size.

The Enviro100EV is designed for such routes, I don't know if they'll be available by then