London Buses Discussion

[Edvid]

There was a little discussion on potential NRM conversion earlier in the thread if you want to have a look.

LT11 (the Equipmake pilot on a 6-month trial) hasn't been in service since 6 July according to BusTimes so the trial is surely concluded now. I don't know how long it usually takes to evaluate the data, consider the economics and make a decision but I don't think Khan/TfL will say anything if they opt not to pay for fleet conversion.

To extend the 14-year TfL service limit specifically for Boris Buses of all things would raise more than a few eyebrows, so I can't see it happening either. With that in mind and the likelihood they'll spend their entire service lives on the London bus network, the older NRMs won't be touched regardless as they're already 10/11 years old.

 

[matt_world2004]

One thing that may prolong the NRM on tfl routes is tfls inability to resell them

 

[TWBG]

One thing that may prolong the NRM on tfl routes is tfls inability to resell them

The NRMs could be replaced by:

• Abellio London - Wright StreetDeck Electroliner EVs (30*)
• Arriva London - Wright StreetDeck Electroliner EVs (ES)
• Go-Ahead London - Enviro 400 City EV bodied BYD D8UR-DDs (Ee)
• Metroline - Wright StreetDeck Electroliner EVs (WDE)
• RATP Group - Enviro 400 City EV bodied BYD D8UR-DDs (BCE47*)
• Stagecoach London - [Double Decker] MCV EV bodied Volvo BZL Electrics (86*)

The above vehicle types could be built with:

• Glass staircases
• LED Blinds
• High-back seats
• USB Charging Points for most seats
• Sky-lights
• ”I am an electric bus” branding (which is mandatory because it’s starting to appear on every electric bus)

 

[MotCO]

The NRMs could be replaced by:

• Abellio London - Wright StreetDeck Electroliner EVs (30*)
• Arriva London - Wright StreetDeck Electroliner EVs (ES)
• Go-Ahead London - Enviro 400 City EV bodied BYD D8UR-DDs (Ee)
• Metroline - Wright StreetDeck Electroliner EVs (WDE)
• RATP Group - Enviro 400 City EV bodied BYD D8UR-DDs (BCE47*)
• Stagecoach London - [Double Decker] MCV EV bodied Volvo BZL Electrics (86*)

The above vehicle types could be built with:

• Glass staircases
• LED Blinds
• High-back seats
• USB Charging Points for most seats
• Sky-lights
• ”I am an electric bus” branding (which is mandatory because it’s starting to appear on every electric bus)

I think the issue is that TfL own the NRMs, and they will seek to get maximum value from them. If they cannot sell them on (and as @matt_world2004 says who would want them?), they might as well keep them for as long as possible.

They could be suitable for opentop tourist buses due to their length.

 

[TWBG]

I think the issue is that TfL own the NRMs, and they will seek to get maximum value from them. If they cannot sell them on (and as @matt_world2004 says who would want them?), they might as well keep them for as long as possible.

They could be suitable for opentop tourist buses due to their length.

If you had a new routemaster, what would you do with it?

 

[Goldfish62]

I think the issue is that TfL own the NRMs, and they will seek to get maximum value from them. If they cannot sell them on (and as @matt_world2004 says who would want them?), they might as well keep them for as long as possible.

They could be suitable for opentop tourist buses due to their length.

That is exactly the issue. TfL needs to sweat the assets with them and essentially run them until they fall apart.

Currently they have to all be off the road by 2034. However the mayor might well bring the date for the whole fleet being zero emission forward to 2030. Another scenario is that central London will become zero emission for all vehicles in a few years time (I think this inevitable).

Even with the 2034 date TfL aren't going to want to replace all 950-odd operational NRMs in one go, so their withdrawal is going to have to be smoothed over a number of years anyway, which would give or take a couple of years align with a 14 year life.

The other scenario is that they're converted to battery electric. However, all is silent on the demonstration conversion and I'm not aware of any successful other conversions to date. What ones have been done haven't lasted long.

Plus, is it a good idea to covert a near-fully depreciated bus to battery electric? It means it then has to last at least another 7-8 years to recoup the cost of the conversion.

 

[MotCO]

That is exactly the issue. TfL needs to sweat the assets with them and essentially run them until they fall apart.

What will fall apart? In effect, a bus is in two parts - the chassis + engine and mechanicals, and the bodywork. If the bodywork is still in good condition, or can be refurbished to a good standard, and if the chassis is sound, or again can be refurbished, then presumably the engine can be replaced e.g. by batteries. Then you will have as good as new buses.

Anyway, what is the obsession with a less than 15 year old bus? Routemasters lasted considerably longer. A fully refurbished bus is like a new bus. Previously, buses became time expired when they were non PSVAR compliant - that would not be the case with a refurbished NRM.

The other scenario is that they're converted to battery electric. However, all is silent on the demonstration conversion and I'm not aware of any successful other conversions to date. What ones have been done haven't lasted long.

Haven't some buses in York been re-batteried?
.

 

[Goldfish62]

What will fall apart? In effect, a bus is in two parts - the chassis + engine and mechanicals, and the bodywork. If the bodywork is still in good condition, or can be refurbished to a good standard, and if the chassis is sound, or again can be refurbished, then presumably the engine can be replaced e.g. by batteries. Then you will have as good as new buses.

I wasn't expecting anyone to take my "fall apart" remark so literally, but for the benefit of everyone what I meant was to continue running until no longer economically worth doing so.

The NRMs are integrals, not separate bodywork and chassis. They are expensive to maintain and their batteries need replacing more frequently than normal hybrids.

Engines and gearboxes are replaced in buses all too regularly. It's more often than not chassis rot that gets to buses in the end. Wishful if you really think that major chassis repairs are economical on a 15 year old bus.

Anyway, what is the obsession with a less than 15 year old bus? Routemasters lasted considerably longer. A fully refurbished bus is like a new bus. Previously, buses became time expired when they were non PSVAR compliant - that would not be the case with a refurbished NRM.

There is no "obsession" with less than 15 year old buses. 14 years is based on two tender life cycles, with a mid-point refurb. There are instances where TfL will accept an offer of 8-9 year old buses for a further contract term if the offer is attractive.

The fact is you can't have buses falling apart mid-contract. Inevitably after around 15-16 buses will start giving problems which cost a lot to repair. Best to cascade or get on to the secondhand market.

Routemasters are hardly a typical bus. They were extremely costly to design and build and were kept going way beyond their time due to engineering incompetence with their replacements and politics.

Haven't some buses in York been re-batteried?
.

Are they still in service and are they used on intensive 7-days a week local bus services?

On your other point that buses were only replaced when they became PSVAR non-compliant, NBC depreciated buses as follows:

Minibuses - 5 years
Lightweight single decks - 7 years
Heavyweight single decks/coaches - 12 years
Double decks - 15 years.

Look back and you'll find that large operators generally hung on to their vehicles no longer than they do nowadays.

 

[Mikey C]

I was on a 183 on Friday, and kept getting automated messages about the Bakerloo Line closure in July and August, Who decides when these messages are broadcast, as in this case they were well out of date!

 

[Edvid]

Currently they have to all be off the road by 2034. However the mayor might well bring the date for the whole fleet being zero emission forward to 2030.

Unless I'm mistaken a 2030 deadline for an all-ZE fleet is contingent on additional funding - preferably a favourable long-term grant from central government. They'll have to up the rate of ZEV acquisitions just to make the 2034 deadline and there are higher-priority projects TfL will need the extra money for (like the Piccadilly line signalling upgrade).

 

[Goldfish62]

Unless I'm mistaken a 2030 deadline for an all-ZE fleet is contingent on additional funding - preferably a favourable long-term grant from central government. They'll have to up the rate of ZEV acquisitions just to make the 2034 deadline and there are higher-priority projects TfL will need the extra money for (like the Piccadilly line signalling upgrade).

Yes as I understand it the 2030 date is contingent on the additional funding, but the 2034 date is an absolute. However, on past forn (This applies to all mayors) there's nothing stopping him announcing that it's moving to 2030 regardless of funding.

I don't think funding new EVs is the biggest problem (dependent on what energy prices do - they impact on tender bid prices) It's the power supply that is the biggest issue. The UK's energy supply infrastructure is ropey and the suppliers can't keep up with the rate of power supply upgrades for EVs as currently is.

 

[MotCO]

Are they still in service and are they used on intensive 7-days a week local bus services?

I think they were on park-and-ride duties

 

[MasterSpenny]

Design of the additional buses now on the SL7 shown in the link below (not going to copy paste the image to dodge copyright)
I think they should have done it the same way as the 59 plates (ie the single door ones). Well, at least they have USB ports!
C - Croydon garage

Go-Ahead London | The Bus Forum

507/521 when is the date next month, contracts renewend.

tangytango.proboards.com

It has the superloop livery, unsure about the luggage rack or if it's single door. Seems like WVL495 may have been sent the other way as it was last in service the day before WVL485 arrived back at C, so looking likely it has had modification.

Edit: It does indeed have luggage racks and USB ports, it has retained dual doors as the luggage racks have been placed in the rear area.

Would you have a photo? Rear area as in over the rear axle in order to maintain all the seats in the low floor area?

There are 8 low floor seats with 6 classed as accessible as they have underseat space. Here's a picture I took, it's quite a sensible plan crafted by ADL Harlow and Go Ahead.

Route 40 has started electrifying
Key
EH - Enviro 400 MMC
Ee - BYD Enviro 400 EVs ordered for the route
MHV - MCV EvoSeti
WHV - Wright Eclipse Gemini 3

London Vehicle Finder

Search current and historic bus routes and locations in London, Reading, Edinburgh. Created to help photographers track down ellusive vehicles.

lvf.io

GoAhead London - Route 40​

Towards - Smithfield,Farringdon Street​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
EH119	SN66WOH	Smithfield,Farringdon Street	17:10	74720	Pocock Street
Ee189be	LB23PFX	Smithfield,Farringdon Street	17:10	75116	Wyndham Road
Ee191be	LB23PFZ	Smithfield,Farringdon Street	17:09	77293	Southwark Station
Ee192be	LB23PGE	Smithfield,Farringdon Street	17:12	59277	Denmark Hill Station
Ee194be	LB23PGK	Smithfield,Farringdon Street	17:11	49691	East Street

Towards - Dulwich Library​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
MHV3	BU16OYL	Dulwich Library	17:06	49680	Goose Green
MHV4	BU16OYK	Dulwich Library	17:11	57400	Kings College Hospital
MHV18	BU16OZC	Dulwich Library	17:11	53201	Elephant & Castle Station
EH43	YX16OBY	Dulwich Library	17:12	53201	Elephant & Castle Station
WHV192	Altery X	Dulwich Library	17:13	71451	Fleet Street/City Thameslink
EH129	SN66WPE	Dulwich Library	17:09	48278	North Cross Road
EH130	SN66WPF	Dulwich Library	17:11	49680	Goose Green
Ee195be	LB23PGO	Dulwich Library	17:09	53089	Champion Grove
Ee199be	LB23PGY	Dulwich Library	17:11	52554	Coldharbour Lane
Ee202be	LG73FTK	Dulwich Library	17:20	71451	Fleet Street/City Thameslink
Ee204be	LG73FTO	Dulwich Library	17:09	91311	Blackfriars Station/North Entrance

Vehicles that have also been on the route during the day :-​

Fleet	Reg	Used From	Used Until	Line
MHV6	BU16OYO	07:20	09:30
MHV17	BU16OZE	00:00	00:15
MHV60	BV66VFT	07:49	11:30
EH46	YX16OCB	00:00	00:45
WHV173	LF67EXG	05:36	07:20
WHV189	LF67EXZ	00:00	00:30
EH126	SN66WOY	00:00	00:45
Ee187be	LB23PFU	04:38	15:51

 

[Edvid]

It looks like the bus stops built to serve the eastern side of Brent Cross West station (when it opens, for route 189) have been named Arbour Street.

The sign appears 26 seconds into this Barnet Council video.

 

[Busaholic]

It looks like the bus stops built to serve the eastern side of Brent Cross West station (when it opens, for route 189) have been named Arbour Street.

The sign appears 26 seconds into this Barnet Council video.

Not to be confused with Arbour Square in Stepney, a turning point for buses and trolleybuses for decades.

 

[Edvid]

Introduction of the Irizar ie trams for route 358 has fallen back into next year, according to the Investment Programme report for Q1 2023/24:

Works are progressing on the route 358 electric opportunity charging trial, where buses are charged multiple times throughout the day for a power boost. This will use overhead pantograph charging infrastructure at either end of route 358 in Bromley for the 20 new single-deck electric buses. These new buses also feature enhanced customer and safety features. The trial is expected to launch in 2024.

 

[MotCO]

Introduction of the Irizar ie trams for route 358 has fallen back into next year, according to the Investment Programme report for Q1 2023/24:

I was hoping they would be launched last Saturday at their 40th birthday bash

 

[MasterSpenny]

I was hoping they would be launched last Saturday at their 40th birthday bash

There was no way it was going to happen when you factorize the problems. I believe not all of them are registered yet, but IE2 is registered as LX23BKA (souce - below image, my picture)

IE2 - LX23BKA

Seen at the Orpington garage open day is Irizar iE Tram IE2 - LX23BKA. Probably what all the enthusiasts wanted to see

www.flickr.com

 

[Goldfish62]

There was no way it was going to happen when you factorize the problems. I believe not all of them are registered yet, but IE2 is registered as LX23BKA (souce - below image, my picture)

IE2 - LX23BKA

Seen at the Orpington garage open day is Irizar iE Tram IE2 - LX23BKA. Probably what all the enthusiasts wanted to see

www.flickr.com

And no point in delivering them all until the charger problems are sorted.

 

[Busaholic]

And no point in delivering them all until the charger problems are sorted.

Is the problem now only at the Orpington end where 'ownership' may not be clear? Is there an issue with the National Grid or is that all resolved? So frustrating when you read, and see videos, of so many systems worldwide that manage to get these things going without all the British faffing about.

 

[Snow1964]

Is the problem now only at the Orpington end where 'ownership' may not be clear? Is there an issue with the National Grid or is that all resolved? So frustrating when you read, and see videos, of so many systems worldwide that manage to get these things going without all the British faffing about.

Bit of a mixture, who owns the land, some legal problems of access for cables, and local electricity supply limitations. There are parts of London where network cannot take more connections without massive feeder upgrade. Recently some housing estates in West London had planning objections because of insufficient electricity supply. The chargers for 235 at Hounslow Heath are still not powered up 2.5 years after contract was awarded in Feb 2021 (there are couple of chargers using existing supply, just enough for 3-4 electric single decks). Of course London 'imports' electricity these days having shut virtually all its power stations

 

[Mikey C]

Bit of a mixture, who owns the land, some legal problems of access for cables, and local electricity supply limitations. There are parts of London where network cannot take more connections without massive feeder upgrade. Recently some housing estates in West London had planning objections because of insufficient electricity supply. The chargers for 235 at Hounslow Heath are still not powered up 2.5 years after contract was awarded in Feb 2021 (there are couple of chargers using existing supply, just enough for 3-4 electric single decks). Of course London 'imports' electricity these days having shut virtually all its power stations

One reason why pushing back the ban on petrol car sales to 2035 is realistic, as the electricity network is way off being able to cope with the mass adoption of electric cars (and domestic heat pumps)

 

[dmncf]

I understand the route 358 buses have small batteries that would be charged at each end of the route, in contrast to typical London electric buses that have big batteries that are charged nightly at their bus garage. Does Orpington bus garage have any chargers for the route 358 buses?

 

[90sWereBetter]

I understand the route 358 buses have small batteries that would be charged at each end of the route, in contrast to typical London electric buses that have big batteries that are charged nightly at their bus garage. Does Orpington bus garage have any chargers for the route 358 buses?

I believe Metrobus (Orpington) has chargers already in place for the 353's E400EVs, whether there's enough for the new 358 fleet is up for debate!

Still can't help but feel the Irizars will end up as a future "Classic Blunderbus" in Classic Bus Magazine, based on nothing but my gut feeling given they look a bit like the Volvo B7LA/ftr from the mid 2000s.

 

[MotCO]

I understand the route 358 buses have small batteries that would be charged at each end of the route, in contrast to typical London electric buses that have big batteries that are charged nightly at their bus garage. Does Orpington bus garage have any chargers for the route 358 buses?

I also understand that one of the other problems is that the 358 has a long working day - something like 21 hours - so there may be insufficient time to charge the buses at the depot. Thus the need to use opportunity charging at Crystal Palace and Orpington Station.

 

[Goldfish62]

Still can't help but feel the Irizars will end up as a future "Classic Blunderbus" in Classic Bus Magazine, based on nothing but my gut feeling given they look a bit like the Volvo B7LA/ftr from the mid 2000s.

They are not a new or unique model. They've been in service in Spain, France, Switzerland and Latvia among others for several years.

I understand the route 358 buses have small batteries that would be charged at each end of the route, in contrast to typical London electric buses that have big batteries that are charged nightly at their bus garage. Does Orpington bus garage have any chargers for the route 358 buses?

It's basically an evaluation project for on-route opportunity charging.

The Irizars have small 90kw batteries, which specifically require frequent top-up charges. On the plus side smaller batteries mean lower cost, lower weight and higher passenger capacity.

 

[Busaholic]

I also understand that one of the other problems is that the 358 has a long working day - something like 21 hours - so there may be insufficient time to charge the buses at the depot. Thus the need to use opportunity charging at Crystal Palace and Orpington Station.

It does have a longer than usual working day. possibly because it serves hospitals in Orpington. Lock's Bottom and Bromley and, like with so many London routes these days, the majority of buses work that full day and week. When London General set the electric bus revolution in progress at Waterloo garage all those years ago they were helped by so few of those buses being out in the evenings or at weekends, However, electricity supply in the local area had to be considerably augmented before the plan could go ahead,

 

[bakerstreet]

Route 168 became Route 1 this morning. The NRMs appear to be gone - does anyone know where the ex 168 NRMs are headed?

 

[MasterSpenny]

Route 168 became Route 1 this morning. The NRMs appear to be gone - does anyone know where the ex 168 NRMs are headed?

I can see some of the batch moving to route 32

 

[bakerstreet]

I can see some of the batch moving to route 32

Ah that makes sense