London Buses Discussion

[Mikey C]

Oxford Street is quite a long road, and buses are helpful for getting shoppers dropped off nearest their favourite shops.

Plus if your bus now terminates, for example, from the west at Marble Arch, any onward travel by tube or Liz line to further down will be a separate fare.

 

[citybus2500]

Latest publicised order for Metroline (108 buses) includes another 45 first-gen E400EVs.

No it doesn't. See the various threads about the BYD/E400 no longer being available.

Buses Mag have taken a month to repeat the wrong info that was in TLB.

 

[Goldfish62]

This was the talk pre covid and with the crossrail project would probably have made Oxford St busier with the public and the bus service kept as it was..
The thing is now if they do make Oxford St fully for pedestrians it will kill things even more.

But there used to be nothing but moaning and whinging about the amount of buses in Oxford Street and more than a minority view that it should be fully pedestrianised throughout. Sounds like those who were making most noise thought it was never going to happen and are now changing their tune all of a sudden because it's going to partially happen.

 

[Deerfold]

But there used to be nothing but moaning and whinging about the amount of buses in Oxford Street and more than a minority view that it should be fully pedestrianised throughout. Sounds like those who were making most noise thought it was never going to happen and are now changing their tune all of a sudden because it's going to partially happen.

The buses would whizz straight through if it wasn't for the other traffic (largely taxis, although there'ssome other traffic - although normal cars aren't allowed to travel the length of Oxford street, there are valid routes onto it from streets North and South of it (see Google Street View for typical traffic levels and types). If there were only buses that didn't need to overtake each other, and taxis for those passengers who can't reasonably use buses, the street could be narrowed and wider pavements laid.

 

[Goldfish62]

The buses would whizz straight through if it wasn't for the other traffic (largely taxis, although there'ssome other traffic - although normal cars aren't allowed to travel the length of Oxford street, there are valid routes onto it from streets North and South of it (see Google Street View for typical traffic levels and types). If there were only buses that didn't need to overtake each other, and taxis for those passengers who can't reasonably use buses, the street could be narrowed and wider pavements laid.

But have you seen Oxford Street recently? It's bereft of buses compared with what it used to be like and the stops have been significantly thinned out. Plus in my experience usage is very thin. All in all, a relatively easy job compared with what it was even 10 years ago to remove them.

 

[Deerfold]

But have you seen Oxford Street recently? It's bereft of buses compared with what it used to be like and the stops have been significantly thinned out. Plus in my experience usage is very thin. All in all, a relatively easy job compared with what it was even 10 years ago to remove them.

That's because they've been reducing the number of buses on there for years. Have people moved onto other ways of getting there or do they not bother to go there anymore?

 

[bb21]

Plus if your bus now terminates, for example, from the west at Marble Arch, any onward travel by tube or Liz line to further down will be a separate fare.

No reason they cannot allow a connection from the bus to the Central line between Marble Arch and Holborn, and vice versa, to be free on the tube leg, if the will is there. Paris is simplifying its fare structure in the conurbation from 1st Jan, and offering free interchanges between rail and bus, so other countries are still moving forward.

Personally I still think diverting all the buses away from Oxford Street and rationalising them is not such a terrible idea, with a replacement free shuttle service provided between Marble Arch and Holborn, possibly on something like a 10- or 12-minute headway. That way you remove traffic from the thoroughfare, maintain accessibility and convenience, and at the same time increase pedestrian-friendly road space.

 

[Edvid]

Both the SL5 and SL7 have been retained (by Arriva / Go-Ahead respectively) with new electric 'deckers. This is significant and would suggest:

* The associated consultation (previously leaked) has not been officially released, ergo the routes will not change
* The South Eden Park Road trees will be cut down / trimmed (as appropriate) to allow safe passage of 'deckers on the SL5
* TfL now believe electrics have sufficient range to be ultilised on the 24-mile SL7

In addition, Stagecoach will operate the Silvertown Tunnel cycle bus with existing electric singles.

Source - tender thread on Tangytango Proboards (accessible to members only)

 

[Bishopstone]

Both the SL5 and SL7 have been retained (by Arriva / Go-Ahead respectively) with new electric 'deckers. This is significant and would suggest:

* The associated consultation (previously leaked) has not been officially released, ergo the routes will not change
* The South Eden Park Road trees will be cut down / trimmed (as appropriate) to allow safe passage of 'deckers on the SL5
* TfL now believe electrics have sufficient range to be ultilised on the 24-mile SL7

Also suggests usage of the SL5 has been encouraging enough, over the first six months, to warrant conversion to double deckers.

 

[stevieinselby]

* TfL now believe electrics have sufficient range to be ultilised on the 24-mile SL7

The thing about range is that it doesn't matter how long the route is, the key question is how many miles a daily diagram covers (and obviously how hard the bus is being worked over those miles). If a bus covers 200 miles in a day, it makes no odds whether that is 4 return journeys on a 25 mile route, or 25 return journeys on a 4 mile route, either way it is still covering 200 miles.

 

[Edvid]

Yes, but there was a TfL board paper from, I think, two years ago - sorry, can't remember the specific date or committee - in which it was said none of the existing BEVs on the market (at the time) were regarded as suitable for X26/SL7 work.

 

[PGAT]

This doesn't really matter though because the new BYD BD11 which Go-Ahead have seemed to ordered loads of allegedly has 400 miles of range

 

[MotCO]

Or you can use opportunity charging like the Irizar i-tram uses on the 358. Oh, hang on.........

 

[Simon75]

How come London bus routes don't have short workings (ie early morning or early/late evening) ?

 

[joieman]

The thing about range is that it doesn't matter how long the route is, the key question is how many miles a daily diagram covers (and obviously how hard the bus is being worked over those miles). If a bus covers 200 miles in a day, it makes no odds whether that is 4 return journeys on a 25 mile route, or 25 return journeys on a 4 mile route, either way it is still covering 200 miles.

And thus the major factor is how long the bus will be in service for. Some routes are infrequent and only run from, maybe, eight in the morning to six in the evening; others run very late or even overnight, and that will really rack up the mileage run.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, but there was a TfL board paper from, I think, two years ago - sorry, can't remember the specific date or committee - in which it was said none of the existing BEVs on the market (at the time) were regarded as suitable for X26/SL7 work.

Two years is a very long time in the evolution of battery technology.

 

[Edvid]

Indeed. Hence why TfL have changed their tune w.r.t. electrics on the SL7 recently, which was the point I (not quite successfully) tried to make.

 

[johncrossley]

The faster the average speed in service, the more battery power used. That is why stopping London buses are the easiest buses to electrify. Obviously a limited stop service is more difficult and an inter-urban or rural service is more difficult still. Electric buses are used on inter-urban/rural buses running at up to 50 mph in the Netherlands, but they generally use opportunity charging to get around battery power issues. If technology has advanced sufficiently for the SL7 to be converted, that suggests we are well on the way for the technology to be good enough for electrification without opportunity charging of most buses throughout the country, not just urban services.

 

[RJ]

How come London bus routes don't have short workings (ie early morning or early/late evening) ?

It’s not liked. If the vehicle is already paid for by peak PVRs, better to keep it out and earning than parked up. No point paying drivers to not do anything.

 

[greenline712]

It’s not liked. If the vehicle is already paid for by peak PVRs, better to keep it out and earning than parked up. No point paying drivers to not do anything.

It is not the way TfL set up the routes. With a few exceptions, all journeys on a route are scheduled and expected to run A to B and B to A. Short workings MAY run at the end of routes, but in general the schedule is for full length journeys only.
Look at Route 43 or Route 237 for exceptions .... these are where the garage is towards the centre of the route, and Metroline (OK ... me!) disliked running dead trips where a service trip could be useful.

Personally, I don't see the need to keep buses out in the off-peak for the sake of it .... better to have the buses available for the engineers between 1000 and 1500 than running around with just a handful of passengers on board. Any extra driver costs involved are miniscule.

 

[RJ]

Sorry, I seem to have answered the wrong question!

TfL doesn’t like short trips. Often, if not always, cutting the frequency on part of a route fails the test for value for money. In the bus service maxims, service simplicity is as important as the others, which means keeping patterns to a minimum.

Garage trips aren’t really liked because it causes complications if the route ever changes garages or operators. They are happy enough for dead runs to run live but it’s rare that garage runs will be included in the service specification.

 

[greenline712]

The re-tendering of Route 237 always withdraws the short journeys, so that each tenderer prices up the same schedule.
Metroline always wins the contract, and promptly re-instates the short journeys !!!

Each operator has their own preferences ....

 

[renegademaster]

I saw one of the new Electroliner 64 out today , with the LED destination blind only having "Arriva" on it, and the route number and destination being on a printed out sheet. Does anyone know what is the cause of the issue?

 

[Edvid]

Yesterday's LOTS update notes which Go-Ahead routes the BD11s have been ordered for.

The EBD-class of Go-Ahead BYD [BD11] buses mentioned last week are now known to be the first of an order for 75 for use on routes 321, 333, 101, 473 and SL4.

 

[450.emu]

It seems there's another shuffle of the 217 bus fleet with Arriva as DWs from Grays garage will swap with the current E400s on the route. The E400s will go to replace the hard working DWs on the 66 but are currently on the 370. DWs 210, 216, 219, 225 so far at Edmonton, T207, 212 and a couple more have gone in opposite direction. Eventually Volvo hybrids from 34, 41, 243 etc will replace the DB300s and E400s next spring.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

No it doesn't. See the various threads about the BYD/E400 no longer being available.

Buses Mag have taken a month to repeat the wrong info that was in TLB.

I did wonder about this. Presumably these are correctly ADL E400EVs?

 

[Goldfish62]

I did wonder about this. Presumably these are correctly ADL E400EVs?

Or maybe BYD BD11s.

 

[citybus2500]

I did wonder about this. Presumably these are correctly ADL E400EVs?

Nope

Or maybe BYD BD11s.

Yep

 

[Goldfish62]

Yep

Ah!

 

[London Trains]

Yep

If you don't mind me asking, is this official information?