London buses have become cashless

[Greenback]

I don't want a contactless card, thanks. When I visit London, it's as much part of my packing list as spare pants!

To be hoenst, my view is that if someone forgets their Oyster Card, it's much the same as forgetting to take your wallet full of bank cards and cash out with you.

What I do agree with is some sort of temporary facility to go overdrawn on the Oyster card. As the system does sometimes go wrong and charge more than it should have, as in bb21's example, then there needs to be some facility to ensure that customers are not stranded or unduly inconvenienced through no fault of their own.

 

[ModernRailways]

Two points from me please:

-i forgot my oyster once and paid cash on a bus in south London.

-can I invite every forum member to do as I have done, and call their bank to ask for a contactless card. The answer will either be:

-yes
-no, too young
-no, we don't offer them yet
-no, credit record not good enough
-no, customer not fulfilling criteria

I was rejected for the last thing, despite my affairs being fine.

Please can we all request one to see what happens?

Mine was no. I needed to upgrade to a different account. I'm not planning on paying a couple of quid each month just to get a contactless card.

 

[bb21]

So now is the time to plan ahead and set up an auto top-up for your Oyster, thus ensuring you won't get caught out in future.

No, thank you.

You seem to think that everyone has a spare £28 that can sit on the Oyster card unnecessarily. My cap is only £5.60 a day in Zones 1-6 (more often £4.60 for Zones 1-2) and I visit London occasionally so I have no need for £28 to sit on my Oyster card doing nothing while earning interest for TfL. On the other hand, if the amount of auto top-up is reduced to £10 rather than £20, and the trigger is brought down to something like £3, then I may well consider it.

The central issue is that you will not be able to cover all eventuality if you remove cash fare facility. The last time I checked, cash is still a widely accepted payment option and it is reasonable to expect that passengers should never run the risk of being stranded if they have sufficient cash to pay their fare.

 

[Greenback]

Where does £28 come into it? Serious question, I don't have auto top up if it's something to do with that.

 

[bb21]

Where does £28 come into it? Serious question, I don't have auto top up if it's something to do with that.

The trigger threshold is £8, at which point your card is topped up by £20 (or £40 - the only two options at the moment), hence the £28.

If you have a Railcard, £8 is more than sufficient for a day's travel off-peak within Zones 1-6 with the current cap being £5.60

 

[Be3G]

I assume it's the £20 minimum auto top-up plus £8 for the ‘trigger’ amount (which is now actually £10).

bb21 does raise a good point in my opinion. Auto top-up doesn't suit everybody, which means that if somebody ends up with a negative Oyster through no fault of their own (e.g. an OSI mishap), the Oyster system won't let them ‘borrow’ a bus journey (as it only allows doing so if there's a positive balance), so the passenger could be stranded.

Edit: bb21 beat me to it.

 

[Greenback]

Thanks for that. Based on that information, I would not be interested in activating auto top up either. It is easier for an infrequent visitor to London, like myself, to manually top up, otherwise I too could end up with having £28 sitting uselessly on my Oyster for several months.

 

[jon0844]

I've been to Copenhagen several times, travelling extensively by public transport. I've never yet seen anyone pay on the bus with cash but you can.

But go to Stockholm and you must use a smartcard (the old prepaid paper strips have been phased out, but might still be accepted if you could still get them?). You won't find any machines at bus stops, so if you don't have a card then tough.

What's more, I don't believe they've yet implemented a proper PAYG system (due to some technical issues) so when travelling by train, you either need to use a machine to pay for the zones you're going to travel in or buy what's effectively a Travelcard.

I think you can arrange this online, as long as you've got money on your account, but it needs planning in advance - not just stepping on a bus and touching in.

People seem to accept it though, and I think our setup will be a lot easier given you can pay as you go, auto top up, and use contactless cards.

Does anyone know if the readers support NFC so that people can use their phones to pay?

I am not sure if it works just now, but some of the mobile wallet systems (e.g. EE's Cash on Tap) make the phone operate just like an ordinary contactless card, although there are a few subtle differences that I'm not entirely sure about.

I am sure EE has fixed that now, although I have no idea how many people use it - as you need a new SIM card and it's something that requires setting up (and taking money from an existing bank account to top it up). Might as well just use a normal debit card is probably what most people think.

Apple is rumoured to be finally taking wireless payments seriously, so I expect this will be the tipping point. After all, if Apple tells the public about this wonderful ability to tap things to pay - every hipster will want to do it, and every tech blog will be talking about it as if Apple invented NFC!

I know that sounds incredibly cynical, but in my experience there have been a great deal of people playing down the benefits of wireless payments simply because iOS devices don't offer it, and Apple went down the route of barcodes. Now it seems it may adopt NFC and use another technology to allow retailers (and maybe TfL) to communicate with you when your phone enters a wireless payment area - which will be good for Apple (getting a nice kickback of transactions linked to that advertising) but bad for encouraging people to adopt the idea.

 

[Be3G]

Thanks for that. Based on that information, I would not be interested in activating auto top up either. It is easier for an infrequent visitor to London, like myself, to manually top up, otherwise I too could end up with having £28 sitting uselessly on my Oyster for several months.

Note that it's £30 – the top-up threshold has been £10 since the beginning of this year, to coincide with the usual annual increase of the minimum fare.

Apple is rumoured to be finally taking wireless payments seriously, so I expect this will be the tipping point. After all, if Apple tells the public about this wonderful ability to tap things to pay - every hipster will want to do it, and every tech blog will be talking about it as if Apple invented NFC!

My understanding is that if Apple implement mobile payments, it'll be using BT LE and iBeacons – Apple don't seem to be that keen on NFC.

 

[jon0844]

There seem to be mixed views on how Apple will do it. Many say the company won't use NFC, presumably as it can't directly profit from it (one reason for the big delays is that the likes of Visa and Mastercard see no reason to share any revenue with the operators, least of all the manufacturers).

So, Apple might seek to develop its own system.. except I think that will be rather self defeating, especially for a company that isn't innovating as much as it once was and is always losing marketshare simply because it only releases a handful of products per year.

I think the best option is to use both; NFC for the payments, adopting a standard, and then use the beacons to interact with customers, and of course take 30% from anything you later buy as a result of it (a condition for any retailer or restaurant etc using the service to contact you).

May work, may not... and Apple will sure as hell make sure it can get some amazing deals signed up before doing anything. (One reason why Apple TV has gone nowhere - because, again, the TV industry looks at Apple and asks why it should share any of its money with it).

 

[duncanp]

Another thing that Tfl should implement is what the Belgian public transport company De Lijn have done, whereby you can buy an SMS ticket.

If you send "DL" or "DL120" to the number given you get a ticket valid for one or two hours respectively.

I am sure Tfl could do something similar, if they wanted to.

The French city of Lille has recently gone over to a smartcard ticketing system and paper tickets are no longer issued. However they still allow payment of a single fare on the buses in cash. (The single fare is €1.50 and you cannot pay with anything greater than a €5 note)

Tfl should implement something similar, and perhaps only between 11pm and 7am when other means of getting a ticket are not available. The driver should not give change, so if a passenger only has a £10 note, they should be issued with a slip of paper which they can then convert to cash at a tube station, travel enquiry office or Oyster ticket stop. Not ideal perhaps, but it would at least mean that someone isn't stranded.

 

[jon0844]

Actually, I think in Sweden you can get SMS tickets. Forgot about that. Not sure if a foreigner can get one though.

 

[Deerfold]

Tfl should implement something similar, and perhaps only between 11pm and 7am when other means of getting a ticket are not available. The driver should not give change, so if a passenger only has a £10 note, they should be issued with a slip of paper which they can then convert to cash at a tube station, travel enquiry office or Oyster ticket stop. Not ideal perhaps, but it would at least mean that someone isn't stranded.

Given the current plan is to save money that sounds more expensive to administer than the current system.

 

[transmanche]

No, thank you.

Well that is your choice. And by making that choice, you have to accept that you might suffer some personal inconvenience.

The central issue is that you will not be able to cover all eventuality if you remove cash fare facility. The last time I checked, cash is still a widely accepted payment option and it is reasonable to expect that passengers should never run the risk of being stranded if they have sufficient cash to pay their fare.

Way back in post #12, I compared buses going cashless to when gas and electric meters went cashless. People adjusted. The world did not end.

 

[bb21]

Way back in post #12, I compared buses going cashless to when gas and electric meters went cashless. People adjusted. The world did not end.

Running out of credit on a prepayment meter allows you access to emergency credit which would last you all night so that you can top up in the morning. Running out of credit on an Oyster card will not (or a maximum of one journey if you have some partial credit). It certainly won't last you all night if two or more buses are required. They are nowhere near being similar situations.

 

[transmanche]

Running out of credit on a prepayment meter allows you access to emergency credit which would last you all night. Running out of credit on an Oyster card will not. They are nowhere near being similar situations.

Running out of credit on your Oyster card will give you access to one more bus journey. Is that not enough?

 

[bb21]

Running out of credit on your Oyster card will give you access to one more bus journey. Is that not enough?

You will not be allowed access to this one journey unless you still have at least some credit.

Anyway one journey will not necessarily allow you to get to your destination, and it doesn't even have to be very far that you are going.

 

[transmanche]

You will not be allowed access to this one journey unless you still have at least some credit.

And if you disagree with that, then now's the time you should be lobbying TfL; to say that they should allow you to use up more of the deposit money in emergencies. However, again I reiterate that the facility is there for you to avoid that problem - you have chosen not to avail of the that facility.

Anyway one journey will not necessarily allow you to get to your destination, and it doesn't even have to be very far that you are going.

If you need multiple buses to complete your journey, then it's likely that you will have reached one of the various caps already. So it won't be an issue anyway.

 

[bb21]

And if you disagree with that, then now's the time you should be lobbying TfL; to say that they should allow you to use up more of the deposit money in emergencies. However, again I reiterate that the facility is there for you to avoid that problem - you have chosen not to avail of the that facility.

I had already raised this issue during consultation. It had been ignored. I have also asked TfL what people are supposed to do in those situations. I am still awaiting a reply.

I do not consider it an acceptable solution that people should be forced to top up £20 in order to not be stranded. As I said earlier, not everyone has a spare £30 to lie around on an Oyster card doing nothing.

If you need multiple buses to complete your journey, then it's likely that you will have reached one of the various caps already. So it won't be an issue anyway.

I don't think you are allowed any more journey if you have a negative balance, capped or not, but I could be wrong.

 

[moogal]

It's concerning that the result of the consultation was that 2/3 of respondents were against removing the cash option, but TfL had already made up their minds to do it anyway.

The big question that keeps being raised but to which no useful solution has been provided is - what happens overnight, when ticket stops and stations are closed? The "one more journey" option, as has been pointed out, doesn't help if you're more than a direct bus journey from home, and doesn't help at all if your Oyster card has stopped working, or gets lost/stolen. With cash, at least you could have a friend lend you a couple of quid for a bus ticket - without this option, what are you meant to do?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's concerning that the result of the consultation was that 2/3 of respondents were against removing the cash option, but TfL had already made up their minds to do it anyway.

Exactly. This asks the question if the service provision offered is for the benefit of the end-users who actually travel upon these services or for some nameless and faceless management-types who first dreamt up this idea...

 

[whhistle]

A lot of people don't want to use auto top-up for the very good reason that they can't afford to have £20+ sitting on an Oyster card at any one time. I don't use auto top-up for that reason.

I understand why it isn't, but TfL should really allow auto top-up of £5 or £10 instead of insisting on £20.

If you can't afford to have £20 less than you currently do then you need to look seriously at your finances.

But I agree, there should be a lower set of thresholds in which auto-topup occurs and the cost involved.

I am sure it's a minimum of £40 now?

 

[Deerfold]

If you can't afford to have £20 less than you currently do then you need to look seriously at your finances.

There are some very poor people in London.

I've had times where having £20 of mine inaccessible would have been a big problem. I'm lucky enough now that it generally wouldn't.

It also sets a precedent.

If you travel a lot around the UK should you have £20 sat on each of an Oystercard, a West Yorkshire M-card, a Key card, a....

Or would it be reasonable to have a fiver in change in case you ran out of money on any of these cards.

 

[Be3G]

It's concerning that the result of the consultation was that 2/3 of respondents were against removing the cash option, but TfL had already made up their minds to do it anyway.

The big question that keeps being raised but to which no useful solution has been provided is - what happens overnight, when ticket stops and stations are closed? The "one more journey" option, as has been pointed out, doesn't help if you're more than a direct bus journey from home, and doesn't help at all if your Oyster card has stopped working, or gets lost/stolen. With cash, at least you could have a friend lend you a couple of quid for a bus ticket - without this option, what are you meant to do?

Indeed! In that situation, bus drivers are able to issue what is essentially an unpaid fare notice, but they're only supposed to give them to ‘vulnerable’ people – which probably pretty much excludes any male under the age of 60. (The report said something along the lines of ‘anyone can be vulnerable depending on the situation’, but I doubt that'll filter through to bus drivers.) Stuck in London at night with a malfunctioning Oyster and no CPC? Tough, sleep on a bench. Or pay through the nose for a hotel room I suppose.

I am sure it's a minimum of £40 now?

Auto top-up can be £20 or £40, triggered when (as mentioned earlier) the balance falls below £10. I doubt TfL would ever enable a lower limit, because with the expansion of the Oyster coverage area, and ever-increasing fares, it could mean people would get multiple auto top-ups a day which'd presumably add too much to the administrative overhead. It's already possible to spend £27.30 in one day on an Oyster, not taking in to account the cable car or accidental maximum fares!

 

[transmanche]

Stuck in London at night with a malfunctioning Oyster and no CPC? Tough, sleep on a bench. Or pay through the nose for a hotel room I suppose.

Seriously? That's the only solution you can think of? To get a hotel room?

 

[Be3G]

Pretty much – all I can think of are:

• Buy an Oyster or a paper travelcard somewhere: both of those options require finding somewhere open at night that sells them. (Hmm, idea: it'd be useful if TfL's ticket stop finder webpage also gave opening hours.)
• Sleep on a friend's sofa: alas, I don't know anyone who lives closer to central London than zone 5.
• Get a taxi home: I dread to think how much the fare would be to the furthest reaches of zone 6 – cheaper to get a Traveoldge room I'd expect.

Admittedly, regarding the first option I am aware that some central London rail termini are open 24 hours, so hopefully I'd be able to get a travelcard from a machine, though they'd probably try to sell me an anytime one for that day rather than an off-peak one for the previous day. I'm also not sure which stations are actually open 24h – some close for a few hours in the middle of the night if I recall correctly.

All a bit of a faff, really. It's not something that should ever happen to me as I do have a contactless Visa card, but as we know those contactless cards aren't completely commonplace yet. I did remark in my consultation response that I'd be happier for cash to be removed if the market penetration of such cards were bigger.

 

[transmanche]

Admittedly, regarding the first option I am aware that some central London rail termini are open 24 hours, so hopefully I'd be able to get a travelcard from a machine, though they'd probably try to sell me an anytime one for that day rather than an off-peak one for the previous day. I'm also not sure which stations are actually open 24h – some close for a few hours in the middle of the night if I recall correctly.

And from next year, lots of tube stations will be open all night at weekends...

 

[ModernRailways]

One question which should probably be answered is, out of all the bus journeys between 10:00pm and 6:00am how many pay cash?

It's all well and good saying 1% pay cash, but how many of those 1% pay cash at night? I suspect it is very minimal. You may find that it will only affect a few people at night, whereas it's daytime passengers who use cash most.

 

[user15681]

My friends went to get the 507 with me from Victoria tonight, for which you must buy a ticket before boarding now. However, the machine will take your money and not produce a ticket. When I asked a member of staff, he said the machine shouldn't even be there anymore, they're being taken out hence why it wouldn't produce a ticket. Rather frustrating and contradictory. Can't pay cash for a ticket on board because they're already cashless, but can't pay cash at a machine because they're being taken out. Effectively, you could only board if you had Oyster or Travelcard.

 

[jon0844]

If you travel a lot around the UK should you have £20 sat on each of an Oystercard, a West Yorkshire M-card, a Key card, a....

Or would it be reasonable to have a fiver in change in case you ran out of money on any of these cards.

Ultimately we need a national smartcard so you won't have a few quid here and a few quid there.