London Northwestern Class 730s

[hwl]

Time to start amassing other EMUs then? Good job nobody's got grand plans for the 350/2s yet...if this was DMUs we'd be knackered.

222 units is the complete order book for everyone else including stuff not for delivery till 2021, backlog is the wrong word to use!

 

[Lozzy0603]

So whats the deal with 350/2s? They were originally slated to leave London North Western franchise in September, then November? Is this going to end up like a Gospel Oak - Barking line situation where the trains have to go off-lease and there is nothing to replace them? London North Western are already struggling with pax load and driver/guard availability since May when they chose to re-deploy a lot of electric fleet to Rugely, Liverpool andCrew away from London commuter lines. It seems like they need a lot lot more electric trains, not less!

 

[E6007]

I'm not aware of the dates for the 350/2s to go. Are the 730s due to replace them in 2021? Can you see 37 x 319's (or other ancient stock) being used?

 

[samuelmorris]

July issue lf Modern railways magazine has revealed bombardier has a backlog of 222 units.

Dont think we will be seeing 730s anytime soon

Not unexpected - as soon as there were delays with the 710s it was fairly apparent that everything else would be delayed, but it is frustrating that the affected TOCs are all tight-lipped about it (presumably by contractual obligation?).
At present Bombardier are about 12 months behind, so assuming there are no further delays (which seems a little optimistic) all of the remaining fleets, Anglian 710s, the 701s, 720s, 730s and 711s will all likely enter service around 1 year later than planned. Crossrail unaffected as the infrastructure and systems integration delays exceed any delays building the rolling stock.

I don't imagine the 350/2s will be going anywhere until the 730s arrive to replace them, so can't see the last of them going off lease until 2022.

 

[RealTrains07]

Is the backlog from the Anglia units and...others...?

Bombardier has built 5 of 111 units of GA
and 0 so far out of 90 for SWR although some work has started for SWR

LNR still state the trains will be in from 2020-2021 but is that really realistic now??

 

[RealTrains07]

222 units is the complete order book for everyone else including stuff not for delivery till 2021, backlog is the wrong word to use!

Probably but then again its taken from Modern Railways plus the 222 units doesn’t include the 730s or the C2C units

 

[hwl]

Bombardier has built 5 of 111 units of GA
and 0 so far out of 90 for SWR although some work has started for SWR

LNR still state the trains will be in from 2020-2021 but is that really realistic now??

The big issue is software hence far more train built than in service especially see LO.
Crossrail stock build looks to be no more than few weeks behind, hence physical production rates look realistic (about 600+cars a year which will increase post LU Stock retrofit work finishing)
The key thing is to get the initial few units for each order built relatively early to allow for (software) testing earlier, though the software should be less of an issue for successive orders.

 

[samuelmorris]

The big issue is software hence far more train built than in service especially see LO.
Crossrail stock build looks to be no more than few weeks behind, hence physical production rates look realistic (about 600+cars a year which will increase post LU Stock retrofit work finishing)
The key thing is to get the initial few units for each order built relatively early to allow for (software) testing earlier, though the software should be less of an issue for successive orders.

Can they be though? If the 345s are on the same production line as the 720s, with no crossover between the two, the first 720s were meant to be in service in March, with enough to displace all the non-PRM 317s and 321s by the end of the year, so there should have been numerous 720s running by now - surely by that notion all the 345s would have had to be completed months ago?

 

[hwl]

Can they be though? If the 345s are on the same production line as the 720s, with no crossover between the two, the first 720s were meant to be in service in March, with enough to displace all the non-PRM 317s and 321s by the end of the year, so there should have been numerous 720s running by now - surely by that notion all the 345s would have had to be completed months ago?

Derby are apparently running 5 lines a the moment (though how interconnected (shared resources) some are is open for debate) and there is cross over - what has happened with the initial 720s and 701s is that they have been slotted in between 345 and 710 production which have been running on 2 lines each. The first 720 car completion was about a year ago
The need for the extra 2 cars for 345 lengthening is now much lower with the crossrail delays.
One of Bombardier's biggest issues is where to store all the completed units pre delivery.

TfL/LO & SWR now have an agreement in place as regards 3rd rail and other shared feature testing

The planned 345 production rate was 11-12cars a week which puts remaining 720 production at ~56 weeks once it gets going properly so displacing about 14-15x 4car EMUs per month so less than 8 months to replace the non PRM units (Assuming all the non Renatus 321s and all 317 are non compliant) but the Stadler Stansted 745s units will help with this too.

 

[Alfie1014]

Derby are apparently running 5 lines a the moment (though how interconnected (shared resources) some are is open for debate) and there is cross over - what has happened with the initial 720s and 701s is that they have been slotted in between 345 and 710 production which have been running on 2 lines each. The first 720 car completion was about a year ago
The need for the extra 2 cars for 345 lengthening is now much lower with the crossrail delays.
One of Bombardier's biggest issues is where to store all the completed units pre delivery.

TfL/LO & SWR now have an agreement in place as regards 3rd rail and other shared feature testing

The planned 345 production rate was 11-12cars a week which puts remaining 720 production at ~56 weeks once it gets going properly so displacing about 14-15x 4car EMUs per month so less than 8 months to replace the non PRM units (Assuming all the non Renatus 321s and all 317 are non compliant) but the Stadler Stansted 745s units will help with this too.

Richard Clinnick has just Tweeted that the first 5 car 720 has completed testing at up to 110mph and ‘should’ be in service by the end of the year. The contracted dates in the Franchise Agreement are in 1st in service from 30/1/19 and last 4/3/20. I somehow don’t think that latter date is going to be achieved!

 

[hwl]

Richard Clinnick has just Tweeted that the first 5 car 720 has completed testing at up to 110mph and ‘should’ be in service by the end of the year. The contracted dates in the Franchise Agreement are in 1st in service from 30/1/19 and last 4/3/20. I somehow don’t think that latter date is going to be achieved!

I'd go for all in service by Dec 2020 TT change.

Driver training will be a big challenge

 

[samuelmorris]

I'd go for all in service by Dec 2020 TT change.

Driver training will be a big challenge

I think that's the earliest realistic date. In practice I suspect they will miss that too.

 

[Alfie1014]

I'd go for all in service by Dec 2020 TT change

Which would tie with the rumours that the big timetable change is unlikely to happen until then.

 

[hwl]

Richard Clinnick has just Tweeted that the first 5 car 720 has completed testing at up to 110mph and ‘should’ be in service by the end of the year. The contracted dates in the Franchise Agreement are in 1st in service from 30/1/19 and last 4/3/20. I somehow don’t think that latter date is going to be achieved!

Bombardier have recently taken on an extra 300 staff for final assembly work on the Aventras so the pace should pick up a bit soon.

 

[RealTrains07]

How big is a 5 car 730 when compared to a single 350

If a 12 350 is equivalent to a 10 car 730 then the 5 must be bigger than a 4 car 350 surely?

 

[samuelmorris]

How big is a 5 car 730 when compared to a single 350

If a 12 350 is equivalent to a 10 car 730 then the 5 must be bigger than a 4 car 350 surely?

Correct, a 5-car 730 is equivalent to a 6-car 350 if such a thing existed. Same as for 720s vs 321/360. The 3-car 730s will be similar in length to the 323s they are to replace.

 

[swt_passenger]

How big is a 5 car 730 when compared to a single 350

If a 12 350 is equivalent to a 10 car 730 then the 5 must be bigger than a 4 car 350 surely?

It’s roughly the same comparison as between a 444 and a 450?

 

[RealTrains07]

It’s roughly the same comparison as between a 444 and a 450?

Makes sense. Just wondering regarding stations with short platforms

 

[DarloRich]

Makes sense. Just wondering regarding stations with short platforms

all south of Northampton are 12 car platforms

 

[swt_passenger]

Makes sense. Just wondering regarding stations with short platforms

I expect any new EMU of sufficient length will always come with some sort of SDO - standards continually get reset as technology appears...

 

[hwl]

I expect any new EMU of sufficient length will always come with some sort of SDO - standards continually get reset as technology appears...

The RDG guidelines for minimum new stock spec now includes ASDO and loads of other useful stuff so it really shouldn't be an issue though some manufacturers new to the UK appear to have issues reading the RSSB standards on various of these features.

 

[RealTrains07]

I expect any new EMU of sufficient length will always come with some sort of SDO - standards continually get reset as technology appears...

Its stations along the stoke loop which i was asking since its 5 cars it wont fit except at stoke

 

[hwl]

Its stations along the stoke loop which i was asking since its 5 cars it wont fit except at stoke

Southern have quite happily been having long trains hang off the ends of platforms for the last 15 years with ASDO - it really isn't an issue unless it is over hanging a Level Crossing...

 

[driver_m]

Southern have quite happily been having long trains hang off the ends of platforms for the last 15 years with ASDO - it really isn't an issue unless it is over hanging a Level Crossing...

That’s why it may well be an issue at Alsager, and also at Kidsgrove & Stone if it were to be hanging over the junctions.

 

[KC1]

Southern have quite happily been having long trains hang off the ends of platforms for the last 15 years with ASDO - it really isn't an issue unless it is over hanging a Level Crossing...

This happens at Whyteleafe and Whyteleafe South, granted, only a few trains a day but it does exist.

 

[Silverlinky]

730's are currently running 8 months behind schedule.....3 car units mid-late 2021 and 5 cars early 2022 now.

And they will eventually be maintained at a refurbished Bescot depot.

 

[RealTrains07]

730's are currently running 8 months behind schedule.....3 car units mid-late 2021 and 5 cars early 2022 now.

And they will eventually be maintained at a refurbished Bescot depot.

Not surprised thanks to GAs 720s mess up. Might as well keep the 350/2s at this stage

 

[Class 170101]

Not surprised thanks to GAs 720s mess up. Might as well keep the 350/2s at this stage

That will depend if anyone else wants / needs them as part of franchise agreements. That being said I'm not aware of anyone who wants the Class 350s unlike the Class 153s, 156s, 170s.

 

[Meerkat]

730's are currently running 8 months behind schedule.....3 car units mid-late 2021 and 5 cars early 2022 now.

And they will eventually be maintained at a refurbished Bescot depot.

Google Maps suggests that “refurbished” is probably a bit of an understatement!!

 

[Energy]

I wouldn't be surprised if the 350/2s are kept, apparently the 379s are staying at GA as well which as they are both Abellio makes me more certain, I am seriously concerned about the WMR interior, personally I dislike the livery as well but the 196 interior will look dirty immediately with the bright orange.