London Northwestern Class 730s

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by KX03HZY, 14 Oct 2018.

  1. RealTrains07

    RealTrains07 Member

    Messages:
    28
    Joined:
    28 Feb 2019
    Bit late, but if the some of the 730s are 2x3 seating then why replace the 350/2s as i thought the 2x3 seating was the reason why LNR are throwing out those trains? Like the 170s which dont have end gangways?
     
  2. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    34,703
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    No, the reason for getting rid is that the owner of the 350/2s charge too much for them. I guess their bluff was called and they lost.

    Had they been the same price as the /1 and /3 I doubt they would be going anywhere.
     
  3. 43096

    43096 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,199
    Joined:
    23 Nov 2015
    The problem is probably the cost of financing them when they were ordered, as they were ordered around the time of the financial crash, rather than the simplistic “the owner charges too much”. Lenders went very risk averse at that point which would have translated into higher costs for the owner.
     
  4. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    34,703
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    I'm sure there was a reason, but from the TOC's point of view that is irrelevant - if brand-new units are cheaper than used ones who wouldn't buy new?
     
  5. hwl

    hwl Established Member

    Messages:
    2,562
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2012
    Agreed. Worth noting that Porterbrook and Angel have manage to refinance some of their more expensive debt over the last 18 months or so but there is still some expensive debt lurking.
     
  6. supervc-10

    supervc-10 Member

    Messages:
    23
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2012
    I can't help thinking though that making a smaller loss on leasing out the 350/2s is still better than making a total loss with them sitting in storage though. Angel and Porterbrook will still be having to pay back their debts, whether the trains are leased out or not. Getting some money back is better than none!
     
  7. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    34,703
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Quite, and this is why LNR called their bluff - but of course they lost that call and will now need to find something to do with what are quite decent EMUs. Drop the price and they could have a role allowing Northern 319s to be scrapped, for instance.

    For LNR that is a bit of a shame, though, as an all-Desiro fleet (by bringing in 360s instead of buying new, possibly modifying them to add gangways) would have had big benefits.
     
  8. LOL The Irony

    LOL The Irony Established Member

    Messages:
    1,753
    Joined:
    29 Jul 2017
    Location:
    Tracy Island
    The GA 360's apparently have an older cab that doesn't allow for it to be changed easily unlike all the future Desiro's.
     
  9. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    34,703
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Perhaps not *easily* - but they did manage to rebuild the Junipers as faux-Desiros!
     
  10. LOL The Irony

    LOL The Irony Established Member

    Messages:
    1,753
    Joined:
    29 Jul 2017
    Location:
    Tracy Island
    I think the GA 360 cab has to be hacked off, anyone in the know wish to divulge?
     
  11. pt_mad

    pt_mad Established Member

    Messages:
    2,180
    Joined:
    26 Sep 2011
    It's quite surprising really that the 350/2s may not have a home (yet). Greater Anglia possibly could have used 350s as an alternative to Flirts on the Norwich to Liverpool Street services if the interior was refurbed which I'm sure wouldn't be unrealistic. They offer 110mph which is all the Anglia mainline requires at present and have a proven track record of reliability. Its not like the Anglia Flirts even require end coach vestibules, as the Flirt door will be on the middle of the coach. Seems a shame re the 350s not yet having a home really.
     
  12. supervc-10

    supervc-10 Member

    Messages:
    23
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2012
    Absolutely- and it's totally the right call for LNR to have made. Having said that... I wouldn't mind them up here in Manchester!
     
  13. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    34,703
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    I doubt anyone would mind them, really, they are very good kit, highly reliable and very popular with those of us on the south WCML - even if we might prefer a /1 or /3! :)
     
  14. RealTrains07

    RealTrains07 Member

    Messages:
    28
    Joined:
    28 Feb 2019
    And they are even more faster than before
     
  15. RealTrains07

    RealTrains07 Member

    Messages:
    28
    Joined:
    28 Feb 2019
    Problem is, insider sources say LNR dont know when the 350/2s will be returned since their is no update on the status of the new 730s. TOCs cant really take trains that aren’t definitely not needed by the operator
     
  16. 43096

    43096 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,199
    Joined:
    23 Nov 2015
    Ultimately the ROSCO will have a lease end date in their contract with the TOC. If another TOC offers to lease them from that end date for (say) five years, then the ROSCO will take that offer. If their replacements are not available, and the new TOC declines to agree a deferred transfer, then it’s tough - the trains have to transfer whether replacements are available or not.
     
  17. Metal_gee_man

    Metal_gee_man Member

    Messages:
    139
    Joined:
    28 Oct 2017
    Can the 350s be 3rd rail shoed and basically become 450s and find their way down to 3rd rail country either in addition to SWRs 450s fleet or even replace the SE networkers?
     
  18. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

    Messages:
    4,331
    Joined:
    7 Oct 2017
    350/1s certainly used to be dual-voltage equipped, and no doubt could be refitted with third rail shoegear and associated equipment without massive cost. The necessary designs for 350s to run on third rail clearly exists in the form of the 350/1, but I have no idea whether the 350/2s are sufficiently removed from the architectural design of the 350/1s to make it a fruitless endeavour.

    Something like SE Networkers is perhaps one of the more likely use cases if at all, since SWR seem keen on replacing a lot of their fleet (well, at least they were!).
     
  19. RealTrains07

    RealTrains07 Member

    Messages:
    28
    Joined:
    28 Feb 2019
    Plus with the potential of stagecoach possibility winning the next SE franchise, i wouldnt be suprised if they took the 350/2s for SE following their desiro success with SWT
     
  20. LOL The Irony

    LOL The Irony Established Member

    Messages:
    1,753
    Joined:
    29 Jul 2017
    Location:
    Tracy Island
    They can be retrofitted with collection shoes.
     
  21. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    18,887
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    All post privatisation EMUs have a DC stage in the internal power conversion, which makes fitting shoes and the necessary extra wiring technically feasible, but it’s pretty unlikely SWR would now need any. As mentioned in the various SWT/SWR cascade threads, it’s only hindsight that now allows for the possibility, but firm plans had been made before the 350/2s became available.
     
  22. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    18,887
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    They are still fitted with third rail shoe gear. But the shoe arm is hidden when in the raised position.
     
  23. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

    Messages:
    4,331
    Joined:
    7 Oct 2017
    Well, there's something I never knew despite using them for years! Surely there's a risk of damage?
     
  24. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    34,703
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    I thought the actual shoes had been removed. They were refitted for when they were being used on the WLL but removed again afterwards.
     
  25. supervc-10

    supervc-10 Member

    Messages:
    23
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2012
    I thought it was just the 350/1s that had shoe gear fitted and associated electronics?
     
  26. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    18,887
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    It is, definitely only the 350/1s. “Electronics” would possibly be stretching it though. As well as the visible shoe gear itself, cables and fuses is about all there is in addition to a non-DC version.
    No they really weren't removed. I uploaded photos taken at Euston only a few years ago, long after they were used on the WLL, primarily to show how they are almost impossible to see from a platform. I’ll try and find the post, here you go:
    https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-350-for-southern-2009.130222/#post-2554807
     
    Last edited: 15 Mar 2019 at 14:32
  27. 43096

    43096 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,199
    Joined:
    23 Nov 2015
    Except Stagecoach are bidding in partnership with Alstom.
     
  28. RealTrains07

    RealTrains07 Member

    Messages:
    28
    Joined:
    28 Feb 2019
    Iam not sure what difference that would make plus considering the 350/2 is the most reliable train in the uk
     
  29. 43096

    43096 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,199
    Joined:
    23 Nov 2015
    Alstom are presumably expecting to get some new train orders out of it. 458s from SWR would make more sense in the context of cascaded stock.
     
  30. RealTrains07

    RealTrains07 Member

    Messages:
    28
    Joined:
    28 Feb 2019
    Would agree with you however considering the 458s are older than 350/2 i would like to believe trains with younger life would be chosen over older ones that had to be combined in order to stay reliable
     

Share This Page