London terminals from WGC

[gaj2002]

When booking on the GN website tickets into London from WGC, the website now tells me that London Terminals are considered to be

Kings Cross
St Pancras
Old Street
Moorgate
Liverpool Street

Which seems odd, there are no trains to Liverpool Street, I don’t think there is a valid route there. I think that must have come about by Moorgate and Liverpool Street being joined up underground. Historically WGC to London Terminals has always allowed either national rail or tube journeys between Finsbury Park / Highbury and Islington / Old Street / Moorgate / Kings Cross St Pancras but not the intermediate stations.

So does this change now mean I can go another stop further if I take the tube from Kings Cross to Liverpool Street? Does anyone have an up-to-date list if jointly available journeys?

It might be worth noting the contactless pricing now has WGC to Kings Cross, Moorgate, Liverpool Street etc all the same price. However one stop further to Aldgate is charged as a full Zone 1 single extra.

Any ideas?

 

[MikeWh]

I believe it's possible to get from the Moorgate GN platforms to the exit gates at Liverpool Street without going through any other barriers, and as those gates are the same as for the Underground it would look like interavailability has been extended.

 

[JonathanH]

It might be worth noting the contactless pricing now has WGC to Kings Cross, Moorgate, Liverpool Street etc all the same price. However one stop further to Aldgate is charged as a full Zone 1 single extra.

The commonality of contactless pricing at Liverpool Street LU also applies from the south via Farringdon / no touch.

 

[Haywain]

So does this change now mean I can go another stop further if I take the tube from Kings Cross to Liverpool Street? Does anyone have an up-to-date list if jointly available journeys?

No, it doesn't and I suspect you would encounter difficulties trying to exit at Liverpool Street with a National Rail ticket of the type you describe.

 

[gaj2002]

No, it doesn't and I suspect you would encounter difficulties trying to exit at Liverpool Street with a National Rail ticket of the type you describe.

Any idea what it does mean then?

The commonality of contactless pricing at Liverpool Street LU also applies from the south via Farringdon / no touch.

Yes, City Thameslink as well, never need to go any further south

 

[Andrew1395]

Was Liverpool Street included as a replacement for the closed Broad Street. I am sure there were once direct services from Welwyn Garden City to Broad Street, but might be wrong.

 

[gaj2002]

I believe it's possible to get from the Moorgate GN platforms to the exit gates at Liverpool Street without going through any other barriers, and as those gates are the same as for the Underground it would look like interavailability has been extended.

By any chance do you have a full list of interavailable journeys? It would be nice to know if this is definitely a legitimate option and have evidence if challenged

 

[Somewhere]

Was Liverpool Street included as a replacement for the closed Broad Street. I am sure there were once direct services from Welwyn Garden City to Broad Street, but might be wrong.

Don't think there were any direct services, but you would have been able to change at Highbury

 

[Haywain]

Yes, City Thameslink as well, never need to go any further south

Tickets from stations north of London issued to London Terminals are never valid to Farringdon or City Thameslink.

 

[Somewhere]

Tickets from stations north of London issued to London Terminals are never valid to Farringdon or City Thameslink.

Indeed, London Terminals tickets from either the south or north are not valid to, or beyond, Farringdon.

 

[Failed Unit]

No, it doesn't and I suspect you would encounter difficulties trying to exit at Liverpool Street with a National Rail ticket of the type you describe.

Indeed you do, I once did Welwyn Garden City - Liverpool Street (changed at Farringdon from a Sevenoaks train). It was raining so I walked to the Liverpool Street entrance. The ticket was rejected (can’t remember the code) but the member of staff said it wasn’t valid. I told them that it was to Moorgate so I was happy to walk back through the tunnels. They let me through the barrier but just told me next time I could only use the Moorgate exit. No drama as I did suspect that was the case but never tested it.

Tickets from stations north of London issued to London Terminals are never valid to Farringdon or City Thameslink.

Not sure about Farringdon - but there is now a ticket from Welwyn Garden City - London Thameslink which covers City, Blackfriars and London Bridge. I think it is about £1 more.

 

[Somewhere]

Not sure about Farringdon - but there is now a ticket from Welwyn Garden City - London Thameslink which covers City, Blackfriars and London Bridge. I think it is about £1 more.

And as far as Elephant. Terminals tickets aren't valid to or past Farringdon. You need either a Thameslink, a through ticket to somewhere the other side, or a ticket including Zone 1

 

[gaj2002]

Tickets from stations north of London issued to London Terminals are never valid to Farringdon or City Thameslink.

Hi, yes I’m aware of that, however the contactless pricing seems more generous

If you check TFL single fare finder, you will see Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross / St Pancras / Barbican / Farringdon / Old Street / Moorgate / Liverpool Street / City Thameslink / Blackfriars (rail only) / London Bridge (rail only) / Elephant and Castle / Waterloo East are all charged the same price. Strangely Angel is charged as an extra zone 1 single, not sure why treated differently from Barbican.

So clearly I understand the contactless pricing is not the same as the paper ticket validity but I’m just wondering if there is some sort of clue there regarding Liverpool Street when we also have the GN website telling me it’s a London terminal from WGC.

 

[Somewhere]

Presumably Barbican is the same price as there's an exit from Farringdon Elizabeth Line to Barbican Underground station
Same as Moorgate and Liverpool Street stations are connected by Elizabeth Line platforms.
Contactless and paper tickets have different validities anyway, as you cannot be off route with contactless in the same way as you can with a paper ticket

 

[Failed Unit]

Hi, yes I’m aware of that, however the contactless pricing seems more generous

If you check TFL single fare finder, you will see Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross / St Pancras / Barbican / Farringdon / Old Street / Moorgate / Liverpool Street / City Thameslink / Blackfriars (rail only) / London Bridge (rail only) / Elephant and Castle are all charged the same price. Strangely Angel is charged as an extra zone 1 single, not sure why treated differently from Barbican.

So clearly I understand the contactless pricing is not the same as the paper ticket validity but I’m just wondering if there is some sort of clue there regarding Liverpool Street when we also have the GN website telling me it’s a London terminal from WGC.

No, if you have a paper ticket it gets rejected. Otherwise you need to read the fares manual. If you try and book Liverpool Street, you won’t get the terminals fare. If you just buy from a vending machine and accidentally walk out of Liverpool Street after using cross-rail I can’t see the TfL staff making you walk back to Moorgate.

 

[gaj2002]

Indeed you do, I once did Welwyn Garden City - Liverpool Street (changed at Farringdon from a Sevenoaks train). It was raining so I walked to the Liverpool Street entrance. The ticket was rejected (can’t remember the code) but the member of staff said it wasn’t valid. I told them that it was to Moorgate so I was happy to walk back through the tunnels. They let me through the barrier but just told me next time I could only use the Moorgate exit. No drama as I did suspect that was the case but never tested it.


Not sure about Farringdon - but there is now a ticket from Welwyn Garden City - London Thameslink which covers City, Blackfriars and London Bridge. I think it is about £1 more.

Ah well I’ve just tried this… London Terminals to WGC ticket does, as of today, work the barriers to the tube at Liverpool Street, I was able to walk through, never seen the big tunnels for Elizabeth line before, and board a train from Moorgate.

So I think the key points are

- GN website says Liverpool Street is now a London Terminal from WGC, I’m sure it didn’t say that in the old days

- Tickets work the Liverpool Street barriers, as you say I’m sure they didn’t in the old days

- Contactless pricing equalised, I’m fairly confident that wasn’t true a year or so ago

Maybe the best thing to do is check with GN / TFL customer services what all this means, if it really does mean it’s legit to board a tube from Liverpool Street or if it’s just their clumsy way of saying you can use the Liverpool Street entrance to board a Moorgate train

 

[A S Leib]

Indeed, London Terminals tickets from either the south or north are not valid to, or beyond, Farringdon.

Are tickets to / from Medway, Maidstone and other places with Southeastern High Speed and Thameslink services to London terminals exceptions if they're valid via HS1?

 

[Failed Unit]

Ah well I’ve just tried this… London Terminals to WGC ticket does, as of today, work the barriers to the tube at Liverpool Street, I was able to walk through, never seen the big tunnels for Elizabeth line before, and board a train from Moorgate.

So I think the key points are

- GN website says Liverpool Street is now a London Terminal from WGC, I’m sure it didn’t say that in the old days

- Tickets work the Liverpool Street barriers, as you say I’m sure they didn’t in the old days

- Contactless pricing equalised, I’m fairly confident that wasn’t true a year or so ago

Maybe the best thing to do is check with GN / TFL customer services what all this means, if it really does mean it’s legit to board a tube from Liverpool Street or if it’s just their clumsy way of saying you can use the Liverpool Street entrance to board a Moorgate train

That is interesting, I was August when I got rejected, but it is very possible that a lot of people are experiencing the same problem so TfL have change the programming of the barrier. It the end of the day, I suspect it would be difficult to charge a passenger an excess when they have alighted the train a station and just walked to a different exit From the platform. I have heard many people speaking to TfL staff at Moorgate, not realising that they were not at Liverpool Street.

 

[gaj2002]

That is interesting, I was August when I got rejected, but it is very possible that a lot of people are experiencing the same problem so TfL have change the programming of the barrier. It the end of the day, I suspect it would be difficult to charge a passenger an excess when they have alighted the train a station and just walked to a different exit From the platform. I have heard many people speaking to TfL staff at Moorgate, not realising that they were not at Liverpool Street.

A friend of mine in Hitchin mentioned very recently having tried to use flexi-season key smart card ticket at Liverpool Street and being denied by barriers, not sure if he was allowed to walk through or if he just went in the Moorgate entrance.

In my case the ticket which worked this evening was an off-peak carnet ticket London Terminals to WGC.

So possibly there may be a lack of joined-up thinking between ticket types confusing the issue further

 

[Somewhere]

Are tickets to / from Medway, Maidstone and other places with Southeastern High Speed and Thameslink services to London terminals exceptions if they're valid via HS1?

I believe there's an easement for that, yes

 

[Gaelan]

WGC

(Welwyn Garden City, for anyone else unfamiliar)

 

[Hadders]

Stevenage to London Terminals is valid into Liverpool Street if you go via Enfield Chase and then walk to Enfield Town. The same would be true for Hitchin.

I've not checked the distances but I suspect Welwyn Garden City to Liverpool Street via Highbury & Islington, Hackney Central, Hackney Downs is probably within 3 miles of the shortest route.

 

[JB_B]

Stevenage to London Terminals is valid into Liverpool Street if you go via Enfield Chase and then walk to Enfield Town. The same would be true for Hitchin.

I've not checked the distances but I suspect Welwyn Garden City to Liverpool Street via Highbury & Islington, Hackney Central, Hackney Downs is probably within 3 miles of the shortest route.

Yes, that's right.

 

[Horizon22]

This is surely to do with Moorgate and Liverpool Street being connected through 'one station' by Elizabeth line isn't it?

 

[Hadders]

This is surely to do with Moorgate and Liverpool Street being connected through 'one station' by Elizabeth line isn't it?

Possibly. Stevenage validity into Liverpool Street was shown pre-Elizabeth Line, I don't know about WGC but I suspect it was shown as well.

 

[Roger1973]

Was Liverpool Street included as a replacement for the closed Broad Street. I am sure there were once direct services from Welwyn Garden City to Broad Street, but might be wrong.

Don't think there were any direct services, but you would have been able to change at Highbury

I happen to have a 1968/69 working timetable that covers Broad Street to hand.

It shows a 1641 (DMU) to WGC as the only 'down' service, but no morning 'up' journeys from further out than Hatfield. Think for other journeys, a change at Finsbury Park would have been involved. The Canonbury curve was east of Highbury + Islington.

(Whether that's relevant to tickets now being valid to Liverpool Street, I wouldn't care to say - not sure how you'd have done it after 1976 other than Underground from Moorgate to Liverpool Street.)

 

[kieron]

Was Liverpool Street included as a replacement for the closed Broad Street. I am sure there were once direct services from Welwyn Garden City to Broad Street, but might be wrong.

No. I don't know if this is drawn from data which is available to the public now, but it used to be. I only have a few old versions of that data, but the ones I have from 2016 only showed Kings Cross, Moorgate and Old Street as being valid London Terminals for tickets from Welwyn Garden City, whereas the one from 2018 also lists Liverpool Street and St Pancras. This is all long after Broad Street closed, of course.

It's not Crossrail either, as that would have only been added around the time the line opened. It may simply have been that that was when someone realised that the route via Highbury and Hackney was permitted.

 

[Horizon22]

No. I don't know if this is drawn from data which is available to the public now, but it used to be. I only have a few old versions of that data, but the ones I have from 2016 only showed Kings Cross, Moorgate and Old Street as being valid London Terminals for tickets from Welwyn Garden City, whereas the one from 2018 also lists Liverpool Street and St Pancras. This is all long after Broad Street closed, of course.

It's not Crossrail either, as that would have only been added around the time the line opened. It may simply have been that that was when someone realised that the route via Highbury and Hackney was permitted.

Well Crossrail was meant to have finished construction and opened in 2018, so perhaps it was added and they forgot to remove it while it was still being built!

 

[greyman42]

If i travel from York to Kings Cross then get the Underground to Moorgate, can i then walk through the tunnel and exit at Liverpool Street?

 

[SargeNpton]

If i travel from York to Kings Cross then get the Underground to Moorgate, can i then walk through the tunnel and exit at Liverpool Street?

No, because once you have exited at Kings Cross you will have reached "London Terminals". As your ticket will not have the Maltese Cross it won't work the gates on the Underground.