London Thameslink fares from GN and from South of London

[swt_passenger]

London Thameslink fares to be available from the GN and from the South, at long last:

Great Northern Route
London Terminals tickets
London Terminals tickets are valid for travel to London King’s Cross, Moorgate and now London St Pancras.

Travelling beyond London St Pancras?
Customers who wish to travel to any London Thameslink station including London St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle may do so by purchasing a London Thameslink ticket. Customers with London Thameslink tickets may also break their journey at Kings Cross to provide greater flexibility, however they are not valid on the Moorgate branch.

Great Northern only routed tickets
Tickets routed Great Northern only are now also valid on Thameslink services along the same line of route.

Southern and Thameslink (South) route
London Terminals tickets
London Terminals tickets are valid to London Victoria, London Bridge, London Blackfriars, City Thameslink, London Charing Cross, London Cannon Street and London Waterloo (as long as this is not prohibited by the routing of the ticket).

Travelling beyond London City Thameslink?
Customers who wish to travel to any London Thameslink station including City Thameslink, Farringdon, London St Pancras, London Blackfriars, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle may do so by purchasing a London Thameslink ticket. This ticket will not allow customers to travel to other London Terminals such as London Victoria.

Ticket restrictions to note

• Tickets routed Southern only are valid only on Southern services
• Tickets routed Thameslink only are valid only on Thameslink services
• Tickets routed Not Gatwick Express are valid on Southern and Thameslink services but not Gatwick Express

https://www.railplan2020.com/frequently-asked-questions

Note at least one glaring inconsistency. Tickets marked Great Northern only are also valid on Thameslink, but meanwhile in the south validity is kept separate. Weird.

 

[JonathanH]

London Thameslink fares to be available from the GN and from the South, at long last:

Note at least one glaring inconsistency. Tickets marked Great Northern only are also valid on Thameslink, but meanwhile in the south validity is kept separate. Weird.

That's hardly surprising given the expectation that Southern and Gatwick Express will be hived off from the current operations and Thameslink and Great Northern will stay together.

I think that the other point is that in the south, where there is a Southern / Thameslink ticket differential you can make a choice between Southern and Thameslink for many journeys at all times of the day (eg Southern and Thameslink both operate trains from Brighton to London all day although not the same terminal) while that is not so true on the Great Northern side. A Great Northern only ticket from Peterborough to London isn't much use if you want to travel off-peak or at weekends in the future unless it is valid on Thameslink.

 

[Hadders]

At last some news from GTR about fares however there are a couple of questions that arise.

1. Tickets from, for example, Stevenage to London Terminals are valid to Moorgate using the Underground between Kings Cross St Pancras and Moorgate. Will I be able to use a Stevenage - London Terminals ticket to travel to Moorgate by changing at Farringdon (I think the answer has to be yes as I don't see how a prohibition on this can be enforced otherwise).

2. If the answer to question 1 is yes, can I break my journey at Farringdon with a Stevenage - London Terminals ticket? Currently this is not allowed if using the Underground inter-availability between Kings Cross St Pancras and Moorgate but can a break of journey restriction apply to a walk up ticket at an individual station where you change from a national rail service to the Underground?

 

[MikeWh]

2 is an interesting one. The last station where your National Rail ticket is valid before transferring to the Underground is St Pancras. The Thameslink core has always been treated as an alternative cross-London service when using a maltese cross, so I think the answer to 2 is no, because by then you are on the Underground interavailabilty.

1 has to be yes, definitely.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

The Thameslink core has always been treated as an alternative cross-London service when using a maltese cross

Indeed, but a SVG to London Terminals is not a maltese cross fare: the KGX to MOG element is effectively a replacement for the loss of the former heavy rail service and is nothing to do with the maltese cross, surely? The no BoJ at Farringdon rule, I always thought, reflects the fact tha it is an LUL station and LUL had declined to permit BOJs essentially for reasons of making staff training easier....

 

[Hadders]

2 is an interesting one. The last station where your National Rail ticket is valid before transferring to the Underground is St Pancras. The Thameslink core has always been treated as an alternative cross-London service when using a maltese cross, so I think the answer to 2 is no, because by then you are on the Underground interavailabilty.

1 has to be yes, definitely.

If the answer to 1 is yes then I can take a Thameslink train to Farringdon and change to the Underground there. This contradicts what GTR are saying as they claim a London Terminals ticket is not valid south of St Pancras. They could make everyone alight at St Pancras but it would be farcical saying a London Terminals ticket was valid through Farringdon but only on the parallel Underground lines.

Indeed, but a SVG to London Terminals is not a maltese cross fare: the KGX to MOG element is effectively a replacement for the loss of the former heavy rail service and is nothing to do with the maltese cross, surely? The no BoJ at Farringdon rule, I always thought, reflects the fact tha it is an LUL station and LUL had declined to permit BOJs essentially for reasons of making staff training easier....

I agree. The inter-availability reflects the loss of the former heavy rail service and BoJ was always banned at intermediate stations which included Farringdon. But Farringdon is now served by National Rail stations so can BoJ be barred at a station served by National Rail trains (assuming the ticket used allows BoJ).

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

But Farringdon is now served by National Rail stations

Well, it has been for many years but TfL staff would never permit a BoJ even for something like Brighton to Bedford, not just London Terminals. Since the other side of the station appears to be GTR, not TfL, staffed, perhaps it's easier to BoJ there...

 

[Hadders]

Well, it has been for many years but TfL staff would never permit a BoJ even for something like Brighton to Bedford, not just London Terminals. Since the other side of the station appears to be GTR, not TfL, staffed, perhaps it's easier to BoJ there...

But you couldn’t get from the GN side to Farringdon on a direct train. Now you will be able to which changes the position, hence my question.

 

[yorkie]

....Southern and Thameslink both operate trains from Brighton to London all day....

Not quite (but that's what they want us to think! ); GTR operate all of these trains. They have false TOC codes as if they were multiple operators, but it's actually all one train operator.

The data is set up to effectively mean that tickets encoded "Thameslink Only" are valid on "Thameslink" and "Great Northern", but this is arguably a misuse of the data, as the data should apply to an actual TOC, not a route brand name.

There is no provision for any of these restrictions in the Ticketing Settlement Agreement (TSA), which only allows for train company restrictions, so there is no legal basis for the restrictions stated in the notice quoted in the opening post, but of course that subject has been done to death in other threads.

West Midlands Trains uses multiple brand names, but the tickets are correctly routed as per the train company name, with no use of false TOC codes for their separate brands.

Greater Anglia is also set up correctly; their Stansted Express branded trains are in the data with the correct TOC code.

Clearly this breach of the Ticketing Settlement Agreement by GTR is being done with at least the knowledge of, if not the permission of, the Department for Transport.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Not quite (but that's what they want us to think! ); GTR operate all of these trains. They have false TOC codes as if they were multiple operators, but it's actually all one train operator.

...

Clearly this breach of the Ticketing Settlement Agreement by GTR is being done with at least the knowledge of, if not the permission of, the Department for Transport.

Given the expectation is that after the expiry of the current TSGN (GTR) franchise in 2021, the Southern and Thameslink routes will be split up, I wonder if there is no longer the push for aligning fares (and getting rid of brand-specific fares) that there was at the beginning of the franchise?

i.e. The DfT will continue to (tacitly) accept GTR offering brand-specific fares up until then, and GTR will continue to offer said fares if it makes commercial sense to them.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

And will a London Thameslink ticket from the south be differently priced from a London Terminals ticket? If so, I find it very odd that you can be charged different prices for travelling to, say, London Bridge or London St Pancras International, even though they're both in Zone 1.

 

[swt_passenger]

That's hardly surprising given the expectation that Southern and Gatwick Express will be hived off from the current operations and Thameslink and Great Northern will stay together.

That definitely seems the popular view, but I wouldn’t really think it was guaranteed.

 

[MikeWh]

And will a London Thameslink ticket from the south be differently priced from a London Terminals ticket? If so, I find it very odd that you can be charged different prices for travelling to, say, London Bridge or London St Pancras International, even though they're both in Zone 1.

Currently you can buy a station specific ticket to St Pancras from the south at the same price as the ticket to London Terminals with the restriction that it is not valid on the Underground. In the future it appears that London Thameslink will restrict you to Thameslink destinations while London Terminals will restrict you to the southern terminals up to City Thameslink. It seems a reasonable compromise to me.

 

[Starmill]

I don't understand why they think that a ticket to London Thameslink isn't valid to Moorgate. One is valid to Euston after all so where do they get that idea?

 

[MikeWh]

I don't understand why they think that a ticket to London Thameslink isn't valid to Moorgate. One is valid to Euston after all so where do they get that idea?

I think that the validity to Euston is a side-effect of there being no London Terminals tickets on the line south of Bedford where travel via St Albans Abbey has always been allowed. In the case of Moorgate they are not removing the London Terminals ticket from GN stations, just providing London Thameslink as an alternative option.

 

[Starmill]

That does not make a whole lot of sense. What if someone wanted to go from City Thameslink or Moorgate? They are not so far apart. In general tickets to London Thameslink seem to be £1 more from GN stations than the equivalent ticket to London Terminals. So why would it not be valid?

They are valid as far as Highbury & Islington anyway and then on the Underground to Kings Cross.

 

[DaveN]

When the Farringdon->Moorgate branch was still open there were separate London Thameslink and Moorgate fares from the Midland Mainline which cost the same.
i.e. London Thameslink didn't cover Moorgate even when you were on a Thameslink direct train to/from Moorgate.
In practice people who weren't going for a specific train would tend to head to Farringdon to get services from either branch.
When the branch closed, they still sold the Moorgate fares for up to 2 years for use via the underground. After that you had to pay the usual underground premium.

 

[Ianno87]

Now, is a Cambridge<>London Thameslink ticket valid into Liverpool Street?

 

[KatieLouLou]

Now, is a Cambridge<>London Thameslink ticket valid into Liverpool Street?

No. In the same way a Brighton to London Thameslink isn't valid into Victoria or Waterloo.

 

[swt_passenger]

No. In the same way a Brighton to London Thameslink isn't valid into Victoria or Waterloo.

So for complete consistency a fare from an origin on the MML to "London Thameslink" probably shouldn't be valid into London Euston, as explained above?

That's always the problem with 'simplification'. Too many existing edge cases. I expect the fares impact of a hypothetical "London Crossrail" will probably catch the DfT by surprise as well, as has long been predicted in these forums.

I hope someone realises now that people will expect to be able to buy a ticket such as Reading to City Thameslink via Farringdon...

 

[AM9]

So for complete consistency a fare from an origin on the MML to "London Thameslink" probably shouldn't be valid into London Euston, as explained above?

That's always the problem with 'simplification'. Too many existing edge cases. I expect the fares impact of a hypothetical "London Crossrail" will probably catch the DfT by surprise as well, as has long been predicted in these forums.

I hope someone realises now that people will expect to be able to buy a ticket such as Reading to City Thameslink via Farringdon...

Maybe there will be more use of xyz to London Zone 1 fares, especially where travel on Crossrail between Moorgate/Liverpool St and Paddington is concerned. That would also pave the way for a solution for CR2 journeys.

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe there will be more use of xyz to London Zone 1 fares, especially where travel on Crossrail between Moorgate/Liverpool St and Paddington is concerned. That would also pave the way for a solution for CR2 journeys.

Surely there should be a similar overarching fares system to Thameslink? Otherwise you'll just get people saying if they can do such and such, why cannot I? Same problem will apply to people who want to transfer from Thameslink to Crossrail destinations.

e.g. starting from the south of London, why is it more expensive to get to "Moorgate Crossrail" (if as you suggest it would be London Zone 1) than St Pancras, which is further away but also in Zone 1..

 

[AM9]

Surely there should be a similar overarching fares system to Thameslink? Otherwise you'll just get people saying if they can do such and such, why cannot I? Same problem will apply to people who want to transfer from Thameslink to Crossrail destinations.

e.g. starting from the south of London, why is it more expensive to get to "Moorgate Crossrail" (if as you suggest it would be London Zone 1) than St Pancras, which is further away but also in Zone 1..

If you mean the current situation where Crossrail doesn't exist or in a couple of years when it does, - maybe because unlike Farringdon to St Pancras, Farringdon to Moorgate isn't run by GTR but by TfL. It seems that outside some persistent historic easements where NR services have been replaced by those operated by TfL, any NR itineries that involve linking travel on LU or Crossrail would be best handled by zonal supplements that have worked reasonably well for at least 25 years to my knowledge. Once Zonel 1 tickets are used, the actual distances between stations within the zone are irrelevant.

 

[Starmill]

No. In the same way a Brighton to London Thameslink isn't valid into Victoria or Waterloo.

So for complete consistency a fare from an origin on the MML to "London Thameslink" probably shouldn't be valid into London Euston, as explained above?

This is definitely not true. A ticket to London Thameslink is valid via London Waterloo subject to routing in exactly the same way that a ticket to Farringdon is today.

As far as I can see there is no rule that says that London Euston and London Kings Cross are available on London Thameslink tickets, but that London Liverpool Street isn't.

 

[Hadders]

Now, is a Cambridge<>London Thameslink ticket valid into Liverpool Street?

No. In the same way a Brighton to London Thameslink isn't valid into Victoria or Waterloo.

Bedford - London Thameslink is valid into Euston so I don't see why Cambridge - London Thameslink shouldn't be valid into Liverpool Street.

 

[GoatSarah]

So here's a situation which I don't expect to be hypothetical:

A "London Terminals" ticket should be valid from Cambridge to Farringdon *if* you transfer to the Circlesmith and City Line and travel to Moorgate, *but* not if you try to leave at Farringdon. This seems to be established.

What happens, however, if you alight onto the platform at Farringdon and then touch in on the Oyster reader, then continue on to an Underground destination that isn't Moorgate?

Presumably the London Terminals ticket ceases to be valid the moment you get on a train that isn't going to Moorgate (let's say I head west, or in future, head down onto Crossrail), but at that point you're already covered by the fact that you've touched in.

If I understand this right, it makes a London Terminals ticket valid at Farringdon as long as you touch in before leaving the Thameslink platform at Farringdon.

 

[yorkie]

No. In the same way a Brighton to London Thameslink isn't valid into Victoria or Waterloo.

Why shouldn't a London Thameslink ticket be valid into Liverpool Street? I thought the whole point of London Thameslink as a destination was to add additional validity to a London Terminals ticket? Bedford to London Thameslink does not lose its validity into London Euston, so why should Cambridge lose its validity into Liverpool Street?

 

[Hadders]

So here's a situation which I don't expect to be hypothetical:

A "London Terminals" ticket should be valid from Cambridge to Farringdon *if* you transfer to the Circlesmith and City Line and travel to Moorgate, *but* not if you try to leave at Farringdon. This seems to be established.

What happens, however, if you alight onto the platform at Farringdon and then touch in on the Oyster reader, then continue on to an Underground destination that isn't Moorgate?

Presumably the London Terminals ticket ceases to be valid the moment you get on a train that isn't going to Moorgate (let's say I head west, or in future, head down onto Crossrail), but at that point you're already covered by the fact that you've touched in.

If I understand this right, it makes a London Terminals ticket valid at Farringdon as long as you touch in before leaving the Thameslink platform at Farringdon.

That’s exactly my understanding of the position.

 

[greatkingrat]

So here's a situation which I don't expect to be hypothetical:

A "London Terminals" ticket should be valid from Cambridge to Farringdon *if* you transfer to the Circlesmith and City Line and travel to Moorgate, *but* not if you try to leave at Farringdon. This seems to be established.

What happens, however, if you alight onto the platform at Farringdon and then touch in on the Oyster reader, then continue on to an Underground destination that isn't Moorgate?

Presumably the London Terminals ticket ceases to be valid the moment you get on a train that isn't going to Moorgate (let's say I head west, or in future, head down onto Crossrail), but at that point you're already covered by the fact that you've touched in.

If I understand this right, it makes a London Terminals ticket valid at Farringdon as long as you touch in before leaving the Thameslink platform at Farringdon.

Like many break of journey restrictions, it may well be unenforceable in practice, that doesn't necessarily make it officially "valid".

 

[Hadders]

Like many break of journey restrictions, it may well be unenforceable in practice, that doesn't necessarily make it officially "valid".

In your opinion is it valid to change from National Rail to the Underground at Farringdon to travel to Moorgate with a ticket from Cambridge to London Terminals?