London to Norwich - 90 min timings

[AM9]

Strange decision that..as it was on time. And yesterday...it did not get in the way. I'm baffled at that one. And i would be really annoyed as a passenger.

It's a symptom of the 'Norwich in 90' thing being driven by vanity. To abuse quite a few passengers' schedules to enable a few others to save 5 minutes on a 90+ minute journey is no way to run a commuter railway.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does that matter? Almost everything runs Liverpool Street - Stratford - Shenfield now and then a mix of calling patterns is needed on the Shenfield to Colchester bit to allow stoppers, fasts and freight. Putting extra lines in at some points between Shenfield and Colchester would at least allow faster services to more places accepting that there wouldn't be more of them.

Is a trick being missed with EWR to get Felixstowe to WCML freight to go via that route? (Someone previously noted that going to Nuneaton causes an issue with getting freight to Daventry.

1) the timetable generally works now, with a couple of minutes pathing time in some of the faster peak services, but not much else. Faster services to more places therefore means dropping station stops. Not popular!

2) getting the freight from Bury to Cambridge, and through Cambridge, would be the issue. Particularly the single line from Chippenham Jn to Cambridge, and a half mile long train at 10mph round the curve at Coldham Lane!

 

[Owen]

It’s not solely a commuter railway line though. So you’d be discriminating against those who aren’t commuting if you prioritise commuters on short routes.

 

[Railperf]

I think that it would have been in the way today as, even though the Southend V IK45 was RT at Romford, 9P91 and the following Clacton IN31 were both 2E close behind. The Southend was put on the UE (Up Electric) via the Up Avoiding Line at Ilford, seemingly as a 'reward' for being RT!
Both the Norwich and the Clacton were then early into Liverpool Street.

The timetable only works for everybody if everything is RT.

Its completely bonkers..the train was running early - never a bad thing - you do need to hit your slot at Shenfield dead on time. Maybe 3 mins early at one point was a tad excessive..but usually it will naturally close in and be regulated by the train in front. And judging by yesterday..that didn'/do it any time..and they all arrived on time. Are Greater Anglia being paid bonuses if it runs early. And if you can do that for the Norwich in 90..then it could be great of they can put some effort in removing the padding and speeding up some of the other services please!

 

[dk1]

The WCML timetable is very well designed, and segregates the traffic. Just not possible on the GE north of Shenfield.

I know, I've followed things very closely since VHF & it impresses me even now.

 

[dk1]

The woman manning them the other week looked miserable, and I clearly wasn't the first person to moan about it. It's to do with their tie up to whatever rubbish sat night tv show they are peddling.

You can shut them up now by hitting the volume button, the first week it wasn't working....

Didn't realise that. I stand there saying "oh shut the f**k up" but will look for that. Oh & no I do not want a receipt.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I and a seasoned (retired) train planner went on the 1100 am down on Monday.

Bit of an anticlimax I thought , with not the biggest of stakeholder turnout , and even less so of are paying passengers. Maybe 200 in total , to be fair the set and loco had scrubbed up well and the traditional headboard was a nice touch. With that level of management attendance , it is not surprising that we passed Romford in 11 and Ipswich was reached in 51 mins or so. More or less right time at Norwich with no welcome - I would have expected the Mayor , the local brass band playing "See the conquering hero comes" - a cold collation , speeches and a distribution of soup and coal to the "needy" ...(no I am not Mr Rees- Mogg)

My mate and I think it is unsustainable , even on loadings alone - much like the non-stop "flagship" Preston -Glasgow off Euston at 1630 which trundled at 30 mph through Carlisle - but now makes a sensible call and has probably attracted another 100 passengers or so.

The times are not exactly "cutting edge" for very obvious reasons and the considerable retiming and impact on the down mid-Essex peak has been noted and written about in Modern Railways. One might need to consider where the actual revenue is - basically on the electric services London side of Ipswich , if not Colchester.

We shall wait and see. Unless HS5 is built to Trowse ...

 

[Nick Nation]

...and Thursday's scores - 86, 91, 90, 90. The best yet!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It’s not solely a commuter railway line though. So you’d be discriminating against those who aren’t commuting if you prioritise commuters on short routes.

That sort of discrimination happens on many lines. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing at peak times, seeing as the railway is an efficient way of keeping people off the roads.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s not solely a commuter railway line though. So you’d be discriminating against those who aren’t commuting if you prioritise commuters on short routes.

Not it’s not solely a commuter railway. But it is mainly a commuter railway. At what point does speeding up journeys for ‘the few’ outweigh the delayed journeys to ‘the many’? Or put another way, what is the ratio between Norwich passenger minutes and Essex passenger minutes?

For example if it costs 1 Essex passenger minute to save 1 Norwich passenger minute, is it worth it? (I’d say yes).

But what if it becomes 10:1? Or 100:1? Where is the line between ‘worth it’ and ‘not worth it’? What’s your view?

 

[dk1]

I and a seasoned (retired) train planner went on the 1100 am down on Monday.

Bit of an anticlimax I thought , with not the biggest of stakeholder turnout , and even less so of are paying passengers. Maybe 200 in total , to be fair the set and loco had scrubbed up well and the traditional headboard was a nice touch. With that level of management attendance , it is not surprising that we passed Romford in 11 and Ipswich was reached in 51 mins or so. More or less right time at Norwich with no welcome - I would have expected the Mayor , the local brass band playing "See the conquering hero comes" - a cold collation , speeches and a distribution of soup and coal to the "needy" ...(no I am not Mr Rees- Mogg)

My mate and I think it is unsustainable , even on loadings alone - much like the non-stop "flagship" Preston -Glasgow off Euston at 1630 which trundled at 30 mph through Carlisle - but now makes a sensible call and has probably attracted another 100 passengers or so.

The times are not exactly "cutting edge" for very obvious reasons and the considerable retiming and impact on the down mid-Essex peak has been noted and written about in Modern Railways. One might need to consider where the actual revenue is - basically on the electric services London side of Ipswich , if not Colchester.

We shall wait and see. Unless HS5 is built to Trowse ...

Good to get your valued opinion dear boy.

 

[Mag_seven]

...and Thursday's scores - 86, 91, 90, 90. The best yet!

Unfortunately I was on the "91" today.

 

[eastdyke]

I and a seasoned (retired) train planner went on the 1100 am down on Monday.

Bit of an anticlimax I thought , with not the biggest of stakeholder turnout , and even less so of are paying passengers. Maybe 200 in total , to be fair the set and loco had scrubbed up well and the traditional headboard was a nice touch. With that level of management attendance , it is not surprising that we passed Romford in 11 and Ipswich was reached in 51 mins or so. More or less right time at Norwich with no welcome - I would have expected the Mayor , the local brass band playing "See the conquering hero comes" - a cold collation , speeches and a distribution of soup and coal to the "needy" ...(no I am not Mr Rees- Mogg)

My mate and I think it is unsustainable , even on loadings alone - much like the non-stop "flagship" Preston -Glasgow off Euston at 1630 which trundled at 30 mph through Carlisle - but now makes a sensible call and has probably attracted another 100 passengers or so.

The times are not exactly "cutting edge" for very obvious reasons and the considerable retiming and impact on the down mid-Essex peak has been noted and written about in Modern Railways. One might need to consider where the actual revenue is - basically on the electric services London side of Ipswich , if not Colchester.

We shall wait and see. Unless HS5 is built to Trowse ...

I have never been a proponent of 'Ni90'. But it has been introduced as required by the Franchise Agreement and from here I would like it to succeed.
Success should be measured by how many fare paying passengers are carried in 1, 2 + .. years from now and should be aided by the attractions (to some at least!) and capacity offered by the new stock.
The new stock when all finally introduced should enable a few timings to be tightened, albeit only slightly, and with the odd adjustment to expectations the Essex lot should not be too badly off in the end.

Oh and when HS999 does reach Trowse I hope that the funders have the good sense not to rely on a single track river crossing .......

 

[Alfie1014]

I and a seasoned (retired) train planner went on the 1100 am down on Monday.

Bit of an anticlimax I thought , with not the biggest of stakeholder turnout , and even less so of are paying passengers. Maybe 200 in total , to be fair the set and loco had scrubbed up well and the traditional headboard was a nice touch. With that level of management attendance , it is not surprising that we passed Romford in 11 and Ipswich was reached in 51 mins or so. More or less right time at Norwich with no welcome - I would have expected the Mayor , the local brass band playing "See the conquering hero comes" - a cold collation , speeches and a distribution of soup and coal to the "needy" ...(no I am not Mr Rees- Mogg)

My mate and I think it is unsustainable , even on loadings alone - much like the non-stop "flagship" Preston -Glasgow off Euston at 1630 which trundled at 30 mph through Carlisle - but now makes a sensible call and has probably attracted another 100 passengers or so.

The times are not exactly "cutting edge" for very obvious reasons and the considerable retiming and impact on the down mid-Essex peak has been noted and written about in Modern Railways. One might need to consider where the actual revenue is - basically on the electric services London side of Ipswich , if not Colchester.

We shall wait and see. Unless HS5 is built to Trowse ...

A grand day out it was. There’s no doubt that a lot of effort is going into getting these four trains right. I just hope that doesn’t mean less attention elsewhere? Last night two consecutive slow Liverpool Street to Cambridge services were cancelled, meaning no service for 90 minutes at stations such as Elsenham and Newport (Essex). No other services were pulled in to compensate. West Anglia commuters are generally displeased because all 12 car trains in the peaks on the route seem to have disappeared since Monday. Today the 09:18 Liv St - Clacton sat down for a long time at Wivenhoe and the consequences were no service on then Walton-on-the-Naze branch for three hours (11:00-14:00) and no service Clacton to Colchester for two hours. And tonight GA were the top item on the local BBC news for increasing some unregulated fares up 6% on Sunday with no advance warning or consultation even with stakeholders. The franchise isn’t just about Nin90!

 

[ashkeba]

Are Greater Anglia being paid bonuses if it runs early.

Sort of. You can bet someone (jounalists and MPs if not DaFT) will be looking at the mean journey times and they can only ever go a few minutes below 90 but the maximum is ...?

 

[Class 170101]

The WCML timetable is very well designed, and segregates the traffic. Just not possible on the GE north of Shenfield.

I know, I've followed things very closely since VHF & it impresses me even now.

VHF is all well and good if you want to go from end to end but between intermediate stations and off route forget it. For example Leicester to Crewe. Nuneaton to Preston are both very difficult journeys to undertake.

Travelling across Crewe is also limited to the hourly London to Glasgow / Edinburgh via New Street services.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

And tonight GA were the top item on the local BBC news for increasing some unregulated fares up 6% on Sunday with no advance warning or consultation even with stakeholders. The franchise isn’t just about Nin90!

I think it is well known, at least within these circles, that GA is struggling heavily on the financial side, so I'm hardly surprised at these unjustified, well above inflation rises! Now, to give them credit where it's due, if you previously took the 09:00 from Norwich to Ipswich for example or an evening return train, you're now getting a faster and now non-stop journey. But it's clearly not an overall timetable that's 6% better, as it's only a couple of trains that are better.

 

[Bald Rick]

VHF is all well and good if you want to go from end to end but between intermediate stations and off route forget it. For example Leicester to Crewe. Nuneaton to Preston are both very difficult journeys to undertake.

Travelling across Crewe is also limited to the hourly London to Glasgow / Edinburgh via New Street services.

Slightly off topic here; but no timetable can serve every station pair perfectly. The number of people who want to travel Leicester to Crewe and Nuneaton - Preston must each be in single figures daily.

Besides, Nuneaton to Preston has excellent connections at Crewe: 16 mins northbound / 24 minutes Southbound, most hours; whilst Leicester - Crewe has connections at New St twice an hour.

 

[Owen]

Not it’s not solely a commuter railway. But it is mainly a commuter railway. At what point does speeding up journeys for ‘the few’ outweigh the delayed journeys to ‘the many’? Or put another way, what is the ratio between Norwich passenger minutes and Essex passenger minutes?

For example if it costs 1 Essex passenger minute to save 1 Norwich passenger minute, is it worth it? (I’d say yes).

But what if it becomes 10:1? Or 100:1? Where is the line between ‘worth it’ and ‘not worth it’? What’s your view?

Well, Essex train services are all rather short in duration, so I would assume that Norwich comes before Essex.

 

[Owen]

A grand day out it was. There’s no doubt that a lot of effort is going into getting these four trains right. I just hope that doesn’t mean less attention elsewhere? Last night two consecutive slow Liverpool Street to Cambridge services were cancelled, meaning no service for 90 minutes at stations such as Elsenham and Newport (Essex). No other services were pulled in to compensate. West Anglia commuters are generally displeased because all 12 car trains in the peaks on the route seem to have disappeared since Monday. Today the 09:18 Liv St - Clacton sat down for a long time at Wivenhoe and the consequences were no service on then Walton-on-the-Naze branch for three hours (11:00-14:00) and no service Clacton to Colchester for two hours. And tonight GA were the top item on the local BBC news for increasing some unregulated fares up 6% on Sunday with no advance warning or consultation even with stakeholders. The franchise isn’t just about Nin90!

Cambridge has a 45 minute express to KGX. The Norwich service has nothing to do with these issues.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Well, Essex train services are all rather short in duration, so I would assume that Norwich comes before Essex.

The duration of a train service (which, in the case of ones like Walton-on-the-Naze aren't even that short) has little to do with its priority. Glasgow to London doesn't get a better service than Manchester or Birmingham to London just because it's a longer journey.

I think you are going to have to accept the unfortunate fact that Norwich to London is a long journey no matter how it's timetabled, and that the nature of the route connecting the two places is such that having very fast, very limited stop trains is not feasible without disproportionately harming the interests of others on the line. It's the same story for oh so many other places.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well, Essex train services are all rather short in duration, so I would assume that Norwich comes before Essex.

That doesn’t answer the question. I’ll ask again, are Norwich / Ipswich passenger minutes worth more than Essex passenger minutes?

In a strict economic sense they are, as there will be more high value business passengers on the fast Norwich / Ipswich service than the Essex service (which will be mostly commuters). There is also some reputations / free marketing value in being able to trumpet Norwich in 90. Therefore I would say that in my opinion, every Norwich / Ipswich passenger minute saved is worth ‘paying’ up to two Essex passenger minutes for.

However I suspect the cost is rather more than that.

What’s your view?

 

[ashkeba]

Cambridge has a 45 minute express to KGX. The Norwich service has nothing to do with these issues.

I think the accusation is that the focus on the Ninnies means GA is getting away with these other failings.

And Cambridge expresses aren't GA and none are timetabled as fast as 45 minutes any more.

 

[captainbigun]

The revenue is in your season ticket holders commuting. That’s a must have for the route, without that the route is doomed. So I would disagree where the revenue is, it’s south of Ipswich.

Don’t forget that journey times on the routes south of Essex have crept up. Remember the fast Ipswich, last stop Chelmsford? Long gone. So journey times here have been eroded over time too.

A minute isn’t here or there, but this exercise hasn’t taken a minute or two, it’s taken a lot more over the breadth of services that have had to be re-timed.

 

[AM9]

That doesn’t answer the question. I’ll ask again, are Norwich / Ipswich passenger minutes worth more than Essex passenger minutes?

In a strict economic sense they are, as there will be more high value business passengers on the fast Norwich / Ipswich service than the Essex service (which will be mostly commuters). There is also some reputations / free marketing value in being able to trumpet Norwich in 90. Therefore I would say that in my opinion, every Norwich / Ipswich passenger minute saved is worth ‘paying’ up to two Essex passenger minutes for.

However I suspect the cost is rather more than that.

What’s your view?

'High value' as in to the TOC, or to the economy? Either way, the are a lot of 'high value' to the economy passengers commuting into LST for the city and Stratford for Canary Wharf from typically Chelmsford, Witham and Colchester. It's a bit like the MML where passengers from Leicester et al, however important they may be economically, are simply swamped by those travelling on Thamselink services, present company excepted of course!

 

[Bald Rick]

'High value' as in to the TOC, or to the economy? Either way, the are a lot of 'high value' to the economy passengers commuting into LST for the city and Stratford for Canary Wharf from typically Chelmsford, Witham and Colchester. It's a bit like the MML where passengers from Leicester et al, however important they may be economically, are simply swamped by those travelling on Thamselink services, present company excepted of course!

High value strictly in WEBTAG assessment terms. People on business travel are ‘worth’ more per minute than commuters (regardless of their actual contribution to the economy). The principle being that you commute in your own time, but business travel is on the company’s time.

 

[captainbigun]

I suspect you’ve got more business travellers going to Chelmsford, Witham and Colchester than you have Norwich.

 

[dk1]

I suspect you’ve got more business travellers going to Chelmsford, Witham and Colchester than you have Norwich.

Who all have a far superior frequency of trains.

 

[captainbigun]

Yes, but that wasn’t the question! However it further supports the view that you cannot add time to these journeys!

 

[AM9]

Yes, but that wasn’t the question! However it further supports the view that you cannot add time to these journeys!

Us mere mortals aren't privy to much more detail than the published estimates of entries and exits, however this is what they tell me:
total season tickets entries and exits at stations from Colchester to Chelmsford including the Braintree branch - 12,400,536
total season tickets entries and exits at stations from Southend Victoria to Billericay - 5,144,140
compared with the total of all entries and exits at Norwich - 4,156,302 (which whilst includes any business and leisure trips to London), also has non London-bound journeys to Ely, Cambridge, Ipswich and coastal destinations. The total entries and exits for season tickets there is just 596,792, i.e. less than 3% of those travelling through Shenfield on GA.
Now as we are talking about two return journeys per day NRW-LST, then that accounts for an absolute maximum of 1600 passengers on four services, for most of whom a 5 minute cut in their jioiurney time (5.5%) is neither here or there.
In practice, high density commuter services are run like a conveyor belt whereas longer distance services (like NRW to LST) are more discrete packages of passengers. If commuter services are needlessly delayed, there is an unstoppable flow that just overflows wherever it can. This is why I likened the GEML to the south MML. Even with minimal delays, there are so many passengers held up that it is ofted impoosible to clear the jam before the end of the peak flow.