London Tramlink Stock Replacement

[MasterSpenny]

Big news came in for the replacement of the current trams on the London Tram network! The aging Bombardier CR4000 trams, dating from 2000 is being replaced finally. Procurement of new vehicles is scheduled to begin as soon as possible. This project will cost at least £50 million.

‘Difficult decisions’ as TfL gives green light for new tram fleet

Transport for London confirmed this week that it is to replace the oldest trams in its fleet on the Croydon to Beckenham and Wimbledon network, with procurement to begin in 2024 in what could cost …

insidecroydon.com

Transport for London confirmed this week that it is to replace the oldest trams in its fleet on the Croydon to Beckenham and Wimbledon network, with procurement to begin in 2024 in what could cost at least £50million.
The Croydon tram network opened in 2000, and the original fleet of 24 Bomardier-built trams have already passed their expected service period, with increasingly frequent withdrawals of vehicles for urgent repairs and upgrades.

Of the original 24 Bombardier CR4000 trams that came into service 23 years ago, two are not in operation. This includes 2251, the tram involved in the Sandilands derailment in 2016 when seven passengers died.
Inside Croydon reported at the start of the year how TfL was looking into the issue of replacing the ageing rolling stock, and finding a way to pay for it.

In June, Inside Croydon reported how one-fifth of the London trams’ operational fleet had to be removed from service for emergency repairs to the vehicles’ wheels.

That same month, a report to the TfL board said: “The majority of our trams fleet is reaching the end of its initial design life and, as a result, is experiencing declining reliability, with one of the lowest states of good repair categorisations across our fleets.”

With the Tory Government continuing to deliberately under-fund London and its transport infrastructure, the £250million announced by the Department for Transport on Monday being half what was requested by TfL, paying for the new trams will stretch budgets in other areas. Extensions of the tram network, such as into Sutton, have been shelved, permanently.

A City Hall meeting this week heard from TfL commissioner Andy Lord who said, “Our intention this year is that we will start procurement for the new tram fleet. The vast majority of our trams are coming up to 25 years old. We hope to start the procurement process for that imminently.”

In an update, TfL added, “We will continue to make the case to central Government for further capital investment for large-scale projects which are unaffordable from our operating revenue alone.” Officials confirmed this includes the replacement of the 24 Bombardier CR4000 trams.

“Difficult decisions” would have to be made, Lord said.

 

[MotCO]

Would it make sense to go for more Stadtler Variobahn trains to reduce the complexities of operating a mixed fleet? Also, if they still making the identical tram, then presumably it will reduce the time taken to test and introduce the new stock.

 

[CarrotPie]

Would it make sense to go for more Stadtler Variobahn trains to reduce the complexities of operating a mixed fleet? Also, if they still making the identical tram, then presumably it will reduce the time taken to test and introduce the new stock.

Just because something makes operational sense, doesn't mean management have the will/power/funds (delete as appropriate) to do that thing. As good at Stadler consistently are, I fear this one may end up going to Completely Abysmal Fools...

 

[Recessio]

Classic government, providing half the money TfL ask for. Hopefully more money can be made available after the next election - Tramlink (or whatever it's called these days) has been massive for Croydon and the environs - with all the new houses going up, a well-functioning tram network will definitely be needed just to maintain the status quo, let alone unlock future growth.

The government can give the full money, which will be recouped through increased growth and passenger revenue, or spend half as much money but not see a return - so of course, which option does the Treasury pick...

Just because something makes operational sense, doesn't mean management have the will/power/funds (delete as appropriate) to do that thing. As good at Stadler consistently are, I fear this one may end up going to Completely Abysmal Fools...

And then TfL will learn the reason behind CAF poor build quality: they are built Cheap As...

 

[Thirteen]

£50m is based on what the Variobahns cost, I suspect it'll be nearer £100m for the new trams.

In terms of options, I wouldn't be surprised if TfL go for something newer like the TINA which is Stadler's new tram model, the Siemens Avenio would be good as well.

 

[Basil Jet]

Whatever happened to the tram with Stephen Parascandalo's name on it? Will the name be moved to a new tram when the old one retires?

 

[Elshad]

Although I really like the CR4000s, and am not a huge fan of the Variobahns (they look ugly IMHO), ordering more for a unified fleet would make sense. The current mixed fleet setup is somewhat bizarre particularly with different lengths and door positions.

 

[Thirteen]

Although I really like the CR4000s, and am not a huge fan of the Variobahns (they look ugly IMHO), ordering more for a unified fleet would make sense. The current mixed fleet setup is somewhat bizarre particularly with different lengths and door positions.

The Variobahns are a fairly old design and I suspect if TfL wanted more Variobahns, they would have done it already.

I would imagine any new fleet will match the length and floor positions of the Variobahns. If Stadler does get the contract then it's more likely to be the TINA.

 

[py_megapixel]

The Variobahns are a fairly old design and I suspect if TfL wanted more Variobahns, they would have done it already.

Curiously, the Variobahn platform actually predates the K4000s (model of tram in Köln, Germany from which the CR4000s are descended) by several years!

 

[507 001]

The variobahns aren’t popular with the staff from what I’ve heard.

 

[Busaholic]

Whatever happened to the tram with Stephen Parascandalo's name on it? Will the name be moved to a new tram when the old one retires?

Tram 2535 is still in stock, as far as I know, in November at least.

 

[Thirteen]

Stadler has other models of Trams other than the Variobahn and the TINA such as the Tango and Tramlink so TfL might consider those along as well.

In terms of other manufacturers, the Alstom Citadis is very popular, used in places like Nottingham, Dublin, Sydney and Melbourne, Hitachi also makes trams but they've never worked with TfL. I think the Urbos' cracks in both NSW and Midlands likely rules them out for TfL.

Although it's unlikely Siemens would build trams in Goole, the Avenio can't be ruled out

 

[CarrotPie]

Stadler has other models of Trams other than the Variobahn and the TINA such as the Tango and Tramlink so TfL might consider those along as well.

In terms of other manufacturers, the Alstom Citadis is very popular, used in places like Nottingham, Dublin, Sydney and Melbourne, Hitachi also makes trams but they've never worked with TfL. I think the Urbos' cracks in both NSW and Midlands likely rules them out for TfL.

Although it's unlikely Siemens would build trams in Goole, the Avenio can't be ruled out

Flexity Swift too

 

[py_megapixel]

Flexity Swift too

Which is what the CR4000s are! Has rolling stock ever had an end-of-life replacement with brand new rolling stock built on the same platform before?

In any case, it's an Alstom product now, so would they even offer it, or just the Citadis?

 

[MCR247]

Which is what the CR4000s are! Has rolling stock ever had an end-of-life replacement with brand new rolling stock built on the same platform before?

In any case, it's an Alstom product now, so would they even offer it, or just the Citadis?

I believe the Citadis has a lower top speed than Flexity Swifts, unless they’ve changed it in recent years. Nottingham lowered the maximum line speed before the Citadis trams entered service. It wasn’t by much (10km/h?) though I don’t think.

 

[Thirteen]

I assume if whatever Tram stock TfL orders they'll be able to add things like full colour PIS and USB ports like they do on the 345s, 710s and the upcoming B23s.

I wonder if we might get a new moquette as well?

 

[CarrotPie]

I assume if whatever Tram stock TfL orders they'll be able to add things like full colour PIS and USB ports like they do on the 345s, 710s and the upcoming B23s.

I wonder if we might get a new moquette as well?

I assume they would add PIS to the current standard, but USB ports are probably less likely due to the distance each passenger travels. A new moquette is essentially a given though.

 

[PGAT]

I assume they would add PIS to the current standard, but USB ports are probably less likely due to the distance each passenger travels. A new moquette is essentially a given though.

I feel like there’s a solid chance they will be added, given their introduction on the new electric buses

 

[507 001]

Which is what the CR4000s are! Has rolling stock ever had an end-of-life replacement with brand new rolling stock built on the same platform before?

In any case, it's an Alstom product now, so would they even offer it, or just the Citadis?

AIUI, the flexity swift is no longer available. Certainly we’ve been told that there will be no more M5000s and Köln have switched to the HF6, which is more closely related to the Flexity 2 I believe.

 

[Thirteen]

I feel like there’s a solid chance they will be added, given their introduction on the new electric buses

I wonder how where they'll put them? On mosts of the seats similar to the buses or a dedicated area next to seats like the Class 345, Class 710 and B23s.

 

[PGAT]

I wonder how where they'll put them? On mosts of the seats similar to the buses or a dedicated area next to seats like the Class 345, Class 710 and B23s.

My bet is on the latter

 

[Snow1964]

The tender has now been issued, estimated value £385m

1 buyer​

• Tramtrack Croydon London

Description​

The contracts (to be awarded to one supplier) are: (a) a manufacture and supply agreement for a base order of 24 new trams (with options to order up to 16 further option trams), together with associated spares and equipment; and (b) a technical support and spares supply agreement for the provision of technical support and spares in respect of the trams supplied under the manufacturer and supply agreement, with a term of 30 years.

Total Quantity or Scope​

The type CR4000 trams on the Croydon Trams network are approaching the end of their design life and Transport for London (TfL) intends to replace them with a new fleet pursuant to this procurement. TfL intends to procure 24 new trams and associated technical support and spares supply to enable TfL to maintain the new fleet at its Therapia Lane Depot for the duration of its 30 year design life. The solution will support improved safety features on the tram network, comply with RVAR 2010 legislation, improve crashworthiness of vehicles, improve passenger and driver experience, maintain and improve reliability of the fleet, contribute to TfL's 'Vision Zero' and reduce the ongoing economic and carbon cost of tram services. The scope of the manufacture and supply agreement will include: (a) the design, assurance, manufacture, testing, commissioning and entry into service of 24 new base order trams meeting the requirements of the tram technical requirements specified by the authority; and (b) the option for the authority to order up to 12 option trams with no break in production, or between 8 to 16 option trams with a break in production; (c) the provision of associated spares and equipment for use on or in connection with the new fleet; (d) the provision of certain ancillary services in connection with the introduction of the new fleet; and (e) the disposal of certain retiring existing units from the Croydon trams fleet. The scope of the technical support and spares supply agreement will include: (f) the provision of specified technical support services in respect of the new fleet as required by the authority over the new fleet's 30 year design life; and (g) the provision of spare parts for the new fleet as required by the authority in accordance with its terms. The feasibility of onboard energy storage and Automatic Infrastructure Monitoring systems may be explored under this contract. The successful bidder will be remunerated on the achievement of specified payment milestones under the manufacture and supply agreement, together with fees for provision of services under the technical support and spares supply agreement. TfL are not seeking financing offers as part of this procurement but may separately procure financing for the new fleet, with the timing and structure of any such financing to be determined.

Renewal Options​

The manufacture and supply agreement will permit the authority to order up to 12 option trams with no break in production, and/or between 8 to 16 option trams with a break in production. The technical support and spares supply agreement will apply in respect of the entire new fleet (including any option trams ordered pursuant to such options). Details of the provisional timetable for recourse to such options and their pricing are set out more particularly in the procurement documents.

Tram Replacement Rolling Stock Programme [Tender Notice]

The contracts (to be awarded to one supplier) are: (a) a manufacture and supply agreement for a ba... A Tender Notice by Tramtrack Croydon. Value £385M.

bidstats.uk

 

[WatcherZero]

Thats a big contract value for just 24 trams, though I suppose they are including 30 years of spares in the initial price estimate.

 

[Snow1964]

Stadler has other models of Trams other than the Variobahn and the TINA such as the Tango and Tramlink so TfL might consider those along as well.

In terms of other manufacturers, the Alstom Citadis is very popular, used in places like Nottingham, Dublin, Sydney and Melbourne, Hitachi also makes trams but they've never worked with TfL. I think the Urbos' cracks in both NSW and Midlands likely rules them out for TfL.

Although it's unlikely Siemens would build trams in Goole, the Avenio can't be ruled out

Flexity Swift too

You could add PPF Group (Skoda Transportation) trams to the list too, they seem to be in multiple European cities nowadays (Helsinki, Tampere, Bonn, Frankfurt, Ostrava, Prague, Wroclaw, Brno, Cagliari etc)

Škoda Group a.s.

Modern solutions for sustainable mobility

www.skodagroup.com

 

[renegademaster]

The tender has now been issued, estimated value £385m

Tram Replacement Rolling Stock Programme [Tender Notice]

The contracts (to be awarded to one supplier) are: (a) a manufacture and supply agreement for a ba... A Tender Notice by Tramtrack Croydon. Value £385M.

bidstats.uk

Interesting theirs on board energy storage as part of it. Either I guess for emergency or some over optimism that tramlink will one day see more extensions

 

[Thirteen]

I wonder if the 16 Trams in the options is to replace the Stadler Variobahn, they are currently 12 in service so 16 extra would mean 12 replacements plus four more for increasing capacity.

 

[Snow1964]

I wonder if the 16 Trams in the options is to replace the Stadler Variobahn, they are currently 12 in service so 16 extra would mean 12 replacements plus four more for increasing capacity.

It also suggests some of the occasionally proposed extensions to Sutton etc are dead, otherwise why just 16 in a possible further batch, instead of say 25 to allow sufficient if it got funded in next few years.

At this stage if the new trams will be similar to fairly short current versions, or something bit longer with more capacity (although depot is not configured for maintaining longer trams), short platform extensions would also be needed for longer trams (but relatively minor expense in total cost of replacing the fleet).

 

[edwin_m]

It also suggests some of the occasionally proposed extensions to Sutton etc are dead, otherwise why just 16 in a possible further batch, instead of say 25 to allow sufficient if it got funded in next few years.

At this stage if the new trams will be similar to fairly short current versions, or something bit longer with more capacity (although depot is not configured for maintaining longer trams), short platform extensions would also be needed for longer trams (but relatively minor expense in total cost of replacing the fleet).

Any significant platform extension would cause major problems with the junctions each end of East Croydon, and probably elsewhere too.

 

[CarrotPie]

You could add PPF Group (Skoda Transportation) trams to the list too, they seem to be in multiple European cities nowadays (Helsinki, Tampere, Bonn, Frankfurt, Ostrava, Prague, Wroclaw, Brno, Cagliari etc)

You could indeed, and their trams and LRVs in Helsinki and Tampere are the best I've ever been on!

 

[hacman]

Interesting theirs on board energy storage as part of it. Either I guess for emergency or some over optimism that tramlink will one day see more extensions

Onboard energy storage has quite a few benefits even if it's not for full IP running.

Being able to limp a vehicle to a platform in the event of an incident significantly improves safety, which is a given. It also seriously improves accessibility in these situations (think of the difficulties someone with reduced mobility or in a wheelchair would have evacuating mi-route).

There are also benefits in terms of future maintenance facility/depot designs in that vehicles can be moved on and off unpowered roads without needing a shunting vehicle. This has a wide range of benefits such as being able to design more energy efficient facilities (no gaps in doors for the conductor wires), reducing the need for expensive gear to switch the power on and off in specific areas, easier configuration of facilities for lifting vehicles or servicing parts on the roof, etc.

I think we'll see more tram and lightrail orders requiring batteries as these benefits continue to be recognised by the industry.