London Waterloo retail - what's going on?

[Goldfish62]

I always thought it’ll probably only become much more useful for the public once the full re-development of the Elizabeth House site on York Rd is complete. Reasoning being that’s when the area between the former International station and York Rd becomes more public open space than “back of house” and car park access.

Exactly. It's part of that whole redevelopment.

 

[Busaholic]

Anyone remember the men's barber on Waterloo Station, down steps from the concourse? It was sited approx opposite Platforms 3 and 4? I used it once in the early 1970s. It seemed out of its time even then - no unisex there!

 

[Goldfish62]

Anyone remember the men's barber on Waterloo Station, down steps from the concourse? It was sited approx opposite Platforms 3 and 4? I used it once in the early 1970s. It seemed out of its time even then - no unisex there!

Yes, very vaguely remember it!

 

[Fiyero]

I’ve now visited The Sidings a few times, mainly for free morning coffee and half price dinner at Brewdog. It is weird seeing the other units in different states of readiness, not like a normal shopping centre opening together.
Brewdog is massive and an amazing space. Not sure if it is just due to half price dinners but it was packed on Wednesday evening.
WHSmith is out of the way but near the route to the underground. I felt bad for the bored staff member!
It will be interesting how everything develops.
The main concourse seems so weird. Both Costa and Burger King totally gutted, can’t see the rest but I’d imagine the same.
A point I did think of, what is the wheelchair access to the sidings? I may have just missed it but it didn’t seem obvious

 

[Goldfish62]

I’ve now visited The Sidings a few times, mainly for free morning coffee and half price dinner at Brewdog. It is weird seeing the other units in different states of readiness, not like a normal shopping centre opening together.
Brewdog is massive and an amazing space. Not sure if it is just due to half price dinners but it was packed on Wednesday evening.
WHSmith is out of the way but near the route to the underground. I felt bad for the bored staff member!
It will be interesting how everything develops.
The main concourse seems so weird. Both Costa and Burger King totally gutted, can’t see the rest but I’d imagine the same.
A point I did think of, what is the wheelchair access to the sidings? I may have just missed it but it didn’t seem obvious

I went to Brewdog on Thursday. A quite incredible place. Absolutely massive and very, very busy. What's even more amazing is that for such a huge space you wouldn't necessarily know it's there while walking through the gateline and up to the platforms.

I too felt sorry for the gateline staff. Clearly people are not yet aware of that way to and from the platforms.

Overall, having seen how Brewdog has already attracted so many customers I have no doubt that The Sidings will quickly become a very busy place once more outlets open.

 

[jfollows]

Anyone remember the men's barber on Waterloo Station, down steps from the concourse? It was sited approx opposite Platforms 3 and 4? I used it once in the early 1970s. It seemed out of its time even then - no unisex there!

I used it once in either the 1980s or 1990s, probably prior to 1994 when I moved from Portsmouth (area) to Bath.

 

[swr444]

I’ve now visited The Sidings a few times, mainly for free morning coffee and half price dinner at Brewdog. It is weird seeing the other units in different states of readiness, not like a normal shopping centre opening together.
Brewdog is massive and an amazing space. Not sure if it is just due to half price dinners but it was packed on Wednesday evening.
WHSmith is out of the way but near the route to the underground. I felt bad for the bored staff member!
It will be interesting how everything develops.
The main concourse seems so weird. Both Costa and Burger King totally gutted, can’t see the rest but I’d imagine the same.
A point I did think of, what is the wheelchair access to the sidings? I may have just missed it but it didn’t seem obvious

There are lifts to the platforms and the main gate line too

 

[Goldfish62]

I at last found WH Smith in The Sidings. It's certainly somewhat hidden. I also visited Costa while being the only person waiting for a train at The Sidings gateline.

Both escalators serving P23/24 are now out of use, but luckily the lift is still working. So far...

 

[fandroid]

Rail magazine says that Lambeth Council have appointed Grimshaw as architects for the Waterloo Area Regeneration. IIRC they were the designers of the International Station roof, which looks brilliant now that it can be clearly viewed from the main concourse. Anyway, let's hope that this is the beginning of the end of the shambles that access to/from Waterloo on foot has become, especially around Victory Arch and the crossing over York Way (York Road?)

 

[AlbertBeale]

Rail magazine says that Lambeth Council have appointed Grimshaw as architects for the Waterloo Area Regeneration. IIRC they were the designers of the International Station roof, which looks brilliant now that it can be clearly viewed from the main concourse. Anyway, let's hope that this is the beginning of the end of the shambles that access to/from Waterloo on foot has become, especially around Victory Arch and the crossing over York Way (York Road?)

York Road; York Way is the road up the east side of Kings Cross mainline station.

 

[swt_passenger]

Rail magazine says that Lambeth Council have appointed Grimshaw as architects for the Waterloo Area Regeneration. IIRC they were the designers of the International Station roof, which looks brilliant now that it can be clearly viewed from the main concourse. Anyway, let's hope that this is the beginning of the end of the shambles that access to/from Waterloo on foot has become, especially around Victory Arch and the crossing over York Way (York Road?)

I think as was discussed back in June the basic principle Lambeth council want to apply is to remove all the various subways and bridges in the area surrounding the iMax and revert all pedestrian traffic to surface routes, including widening of crossings to increase capacity. One of the advance works was to remove the underpass and lift immediately outside the Victory Arch, as can be seen on Google Streetview it was done some time in advance.

 

[davews]

It used to be so easy in the old days - straight out on the bridge over York Road, through the Shell building, directly onto the Festival Hall concourse and beeline to the Hungerford (now Millenium) bridge. It was getting better a couple of years ago when they opened the new route through to Jubilee Gardens then they removed the bridge over York Road and now have to negotiate that horrible mess of pedestrian crossings outside Victory Arch. Getting to Waterloo Bridge is also a nightmare.

 

[AlbertBeale]

It used to be so easy in the old days - straight out on the bridge over York Road, through the Shell building, directly onto the Festival Hall concourse and beeline to the Hungerford (now Millenium) bridge. It was getting better a couple of years ago when they opened the new route through to Jubilee Gardens then they removed the bridge over York Road and now have to negotiate that horrible mess of pedestrian crossings outside Victory Arch. Getting to Waterloo Bridge is also a nightmare.

Indeed - the above-ground walkway from the station concourse across the road and through to the South Bank concourse [and onwards to Waterloo Bridge etc], without having to go near any traffic, was a boon for decades. The idea that everyone has to have conflicting (with roads/traffic) ground-level routes only is going backwards. What on earth is the logic behind forcing conflicting movements unnecessarily? It sounds like Lambeth want to take a situation which has been made worse in recent years, and make it even more worse!

 

[fandroid]

There are now at lot of restaurants/bars at ground level on the walking route from Waterloo to Festival Hall. It's really very crowded on Friday evenings, which is when I often walk through. The old bridge over York Road wouldn't have been of much use to customers of those establishments, and I assume the very popular Brewdog bar is at ground level too, with that bridge being of little use to its customers, many of whom will have approached or left via the South Bank. As for the subways around IMAX, I found them to be spooky even during the day. People on foot shouldn't be sent underground in grotty surroundings. That was a very 1970s thing which is being reversed just about everywhere, for good reason. Lambeth is basically doing the right thing, but let's hope Grimshaw come up with some sensible ways of overcoming the serious vehicle/pedestrian conflicts

 

[Taunton]

There are now at lot of restaurants/bars at ground level on the walking route from Waterloo to Festival Hall. It's really very crowded on Friday evenings, which is when I often walk through. The old bridge over York Road wouldn't have been of much use to customers of those establishments, and I assume the very popular Brewdog bar is at ground level too, with that bridge being of little use to its customers, many of whom will have approached or left via the South Bank. As for the subways around IMAX, I found them to be spooky even during the day. People on foot shouldn't be sent underground in grotty surroundings. That was a very 1970s thing which is being reversed just about everywhere, for good reason. Lambeth is basically doing the right thing, but let's hope Grimshaw come up with some sensible ways of overcoming the serious vehicle/pedestrian conflicts

Grimshaw at the end of the day are well paid architectural consultants. They will do what the client wants.

Basically, if you didn't like the subways or footbridge, don't use them. This is no reason though to stop others who found them valuable from having their benefits.

 

[Wolfie]

Grimshaw at the end of the day are well paid architectural consultants. They will do what the client wants.

Basically, if you didn't like the subways or footbridge, don't use them. This is no reason though to stop others who found them valuable from having their benefits.

Particularly with respect to the subways the police may well have been involved. There is a drive to remove obvious potential crime hotspots.

 

[JohnRegular]

Indeed - the above-ground walkway from the station concourse across the road and through to the South Bank concourse [and onwards to Waterloo Bridge etc], without having to go near any traffic, was a boon for decades. The idea that everyone has to have conflicting (with roads/traffic) ground-level routes only is going backwards. What on earth is the logic behind forcing conflicting movements unnecessarily? It sounds like Lambeth want to take a situation which has been made worse in recent years, and make it even more worse!

Current thinking is that forcing pedestrians away from street level and into subways and onto bridges is car-centric planning- it's often done for the convenience of motor traffic and often means pedestrians have to take longer routes that are less safe (or at least feel less safe) in terms of crime etc.

I'm not convinced that applies to all such features at Waterloo, and this highlights one of my own gripes about planning in the UK- plausibly, someone has heard that pedestrian under- and overpasses are A Bad Thing without fully understanding why, and this might lead to the removal of a safe and convenient pedestrian route. Similar has happened with shared spaces which are A Good Thing and end up being implemented in unsuitable locations.

 

[Goldfish62]

As for the subways around IMAX, I found them to be spooky even during the day. People on foot shouldn't be sent underground in grotty surroundings. That was a very 1970s thing which is being reversed just about everywhere, for good reason. Lambeth is basically doing the right thing, but let's hope Grimshaw come up with some sensible ways of overcoming the serious vehicle/pedestrian conflicts

Agreed. The subways are incredibly grim and need dealing with.

Current thinking is that forcing pedestrians away from street level and into subways and onto bridges is car-centric planning- it's often done for the convenience of motor traffic and often means pedestrians have to take longer routes that are less safe (or at least feel less safe) in terms of crime etc.

Agreed. A particularly successful recent example is Elephant & Castle, where pedestrians now cross at street level rather than having to use awful subways.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Agreed. The subways are incredibly grim and need dealing with.

And usually deafening in terms of sound pollution caused by a talentless busker almost always there, their tuneless noise echoing in the dingy tunnels. Horrible.

(No offence intended to yourself.)

 

[Fiyero]

I miss the bridge, I understand it being removed now as there is redevelopment but hoped it would be back in future plans, it seems not. It is a fond memory of my childhood trips to London using it to get to South Bank. I get that it will be tougher while the work is ongoing but hopefully there will be a good plan once it is all done, it is horrible at the moment coming down the steps then navigating the street furniture, occasional beggar or promotional staff and roads going all over.

 

[Taunton]

It seems a current trendy thing to remove convenient conflict-free pedestrian routes, I think anything with steps (like the north side of the York Road footbridge) is seen as fair game, because if you can't get a wheelchair down it then nobody is going to have it. This extends to demolishing what were quite expensive to build and convenient facilities, like this one.

The underpass outside Tower Gateway DLR was likewise filled in a short while ago. The replacing pedestrian crossing is red against pedestrians for much of the time that there is no traffic, so of course ends up getting ignored, then traffic is released round the corner from The Tower and there is significant conflict. Whoever thought this one was "safer" needs to go back to college. Notably both this one, and York Road at Waterloo, are borough schemes crossing TfL maintained London trunk roads. I wonder if there's some turf war between the two, either on political attitudes or over costs.

 

[Mikey C]

The subways around the IMAX were grotty, but the footbridge over York Road was really useful, and a great way of heading towards Jubilee Gardens and the Thames.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Current thinking is that forcing pedestrians away from street level and into subways and onto bridges is car-centric planning- it's often done for the convenience of motor traffic and often means pedestrians have to take longer routes that are less safe (or at least feel less safe) in terms of crime etc.

I'm not convinced that applies to all such features at Waterloo, and this highlights one of my own gripes about planning in the UK- plausibly, someone has heard that pedestrian under- and overpasses are A Bad Thing without fully understanding why, and this might lead to the removal of a safe and convenient pedestrian route. Similar has happened with shared spaces which are A Good Thing and end up being implemented in unsuitable locations.

Yes - the bridge at Waterloo wasn't a question of sending pedestrians up over the road. On the station concourse you were already up there - it was simply a matter of giving pedestrians a safe and sensible way of staying at that level, and only going down to the ground when they got to where they wanted to be. (Or indeed not having to go down at all if they wanted to access the Festival Hall etc.)

I miss the bridge, I understand it being removed now as there is redevelopment but hoped it would be back in future plans, it seems not. It is a fond memory of my childhood trips to London using it to get to South Bank. I get that it will be tougher while the work is ongoing but hopefully there will be a good plan once it is all done, it is horrible at the moment coming down the steps then navigating the street furniture, occasional beggar or promotional staff and roads going all over.

Yes - I also have fond memories of it; when I was younger, it was one of the most fun things about going to the South Bank!

The subways around the IMAX were grotty, but the footbridge over York Road was really useful, and a great way of heading towards Jubilee Gardens and the Thames.

Absolutely.

 

[Horizon22]

It's important enough for the BBC to pipe up about it!

London Waterloo: Inside the shopping centre that's almost deserted

Beneath where Eurostar trains once whisked people from London to Paris, empty shops now stand.

www.bbc.co.uk

There is an eerie silence in a shopping centre beneath London Waterloo, the station from which Eurostar trains once whisked people from the capital to mainland Europe.

It's not because Waterloo isn't bustling with passengers. Although the railway station lost its status as the UK's busiest during the pandemic, millions of people still use it every year.
London's notorious rush-hour urgency is evident as commuters push past one another.

But when stepping down from the main concourse past platform 19 to The Sidings, the station's subterranean retail complex that opened earlier this year, it's a different story. On the Tuesday morning I visited, workers in hi-vis jackets and hard hats outnumbered the people using the limited facilities. Most of the shops sit empty. It's a far cry from Waterloo International's heyday in the 1990s.

 

[WesternBiker]

Yes - the bridge at Waterloo wasn't a question of sending pedestrians up over the road. On the station concourse you were already up there - it was simply a matter of giving pedestrians a safe and sensible way of staying at that level, and only going down to the ground when they got to where they wanted to be. (Or indeed not having to go down at all if they wanted to access the Festival Hall etc.)

Precisely. I had hoped they would retain it, as the bridge was altered and new steps provided towards Jubilee Gardens as recently as 2019.

It doesn't help that the pedestrian route from the Victory Arch to the Embankment is such a mess - I can't think of another London terminus with such poor pedestrian access.

 

[Taunton]

Yes - the bridge at Waterloo wasn't a question of sending pedestrians up over the road. On the station concourse you were already up there - it was simply a matter of giving pedestrians a safe and sensible way of staying at that level, and only going down to the ground when they got to where they wanted to be. (Or indeed not having to go down at all if they wanted to access the Festival Hall etc.)

Unfortunately that sort of logic doesn't appeal to the current crop of urban planning zealots, who will go along to meet their fellow travellers with stories about how they successfully reduced things to ground level access, omitting to mention that the many pedestrians involved were already at an upper level, safe from the traffic, and quite happy to stay there.

 

[MotCO]

It doesn't help that the pedestrian route from the Victory Arch to the Embankment is such a mess - I can't think of another London terminus with such poor pedestrian access.

I agree - going to and from the bus lay-by in Waterloo Road is far from easy.

 

[Kilopylae]

It's important enough for the BBC to pipe up about it!

London Waterloo: Inside the shopping centre that's almost deserted

Beneath where Eurostar trains once whisked people from London to Paris, empty shops now stand.

www.bbc.co.uk

That's a very snide article!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I can't think of another London terminus with such poor pedestrian access.

I've always found Victoria to be absolutely dire as a pedestrian, not to mention trying to use a bicycle in the area.

 

[route101]

I didn't even realise there was shops in the level below!