London Waterloo to Reaing or beyond - Valid via Windsor Stations

hkstudent

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There are loads of information pointing out that, for GWR stations beyond Reading would be valid from London Waterloo via Reading.
If that's the case, is via Windsor & Eton Riverside and Windsor & Eton Central permitted for journey originated from London Waterloo for access to stations west of Slough?
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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There are loads of information pointing out that, for GWR stations beyond Reading would be valid from London Waterloo via Reading.
If that's the case, is via Windsor & Eton Riverside and Windsor & Eton Central permitted for journey originated from London Waterloo for access to stations west of Slough?
No, Reading to London via Windsor & Eton is not a permitted route as far I can tell.

It's not a mapped route - the only two Reading-London maps include Routeing Point [Groups] at Hayes & Harlington, Slough and Maidenhead; and Feltham, Staines and Virginia Water respectively. There's no way to cross from one map to another this way because there's no Staines-Slough link.

It's not within 3 miles of the shortest route either - it's 10 miles and 63 chains longer to go to Waterloo via Windsor & Eton (excluding the walking distance, which is never counted), than it is to proceed to Paddington directly via Hayes & Harlington. Even if you compare the mileage to going to Waterloo via Wokingham and Ascot, it's still 4 miles and 5 chains longer.

There are a couple of negative easements to consider for the above routes but none would apply if holding a Reading-London ticket. However equally there are no positive easements to permit what you propose.
 

hkstudent

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No, Reading to London via Windsor & Eton is not a permitted route as far I can tell.

It's not a mapped route - the only two Reading-London maps include Routeing Point [Groups] at Hayes & Harlington, Slough and Maidenhead; and Feltham, Staines and Virginia Water respectively. There's no way to cross from one map to another this way because there's no Staines-Slough link.

It's not within 3 miles of the shortest route either - it's 10 miles and 63 chains longer to go to Waterloo via Windsor & Eton (excluding the walking distance, which is never counted), than it is to proceed to Paddington directly via Hayes & Harlington. Even if you compare the mileage to going to Waterloo via Wokingham and Ascot, it's still 4 miles and 5 chains longer.

There are a couple of negative easements to consider for the above routes but none would apply if holding a Reading-London ticket. However equally there are no positive easements to permit what you propose.
That's strange then.
I have checked National Rail Journey Planner with via Windsor option, it reported back a valid result with the same fare...
 

ForTheLoveOf

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That's strange then.
I have checked National Rail Journey Planner with via Windsor option, it reported back a valid result with the same fare...
Not all permitted routes are shown as valid by NRE. Some non-permitted routes are shown as valid by NRE. You can't necessarily imply that something is or isn't a theoretically permitted route based on what NRE, or any other journey planner, says.

You can, however, always rely on the output of NRE (or your chosen journey planner if you buy a ticket through them) if it tells you a certain route is valid.
 

JB_B

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That's strange then.
I have checked National Rail Journey Planner with via Windsor option, it reported back a valid result with the same fare...
Yes, NRE accepts the route from Waterloo to Reading via Windsor (walking from Central to Riverside) and at least a couple of retailers will sell it.

I have to admit, I can't work out how it's valid.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Yes, NRE accepts the route from Waterloo to Reading via Windsor (walking from Central to Riverside) and at least a couple of retailers will sell it.

I have to admit, I can't work out how it's valid.
I know that at least some Routeing Guide engines will pass a route as permitted if there are no intermediate fares that are more expensive, even if not strictly permitted. Most will allow a greater margin than 3 miles for the 'within 3 miles of the shortest route' rule, because such mileages are usually given in rounded formats (sometimes even to the nearest quarter-mile) which means there is inevitably a lot of scope for error.

I don't see any reason why travelling via Windsor & Eton shouldn't be a permitted route here, as there aren't any undercut intermediate fares AFAICT, but equally the TOCs are all about limiting permitted routes as far as possible nowadays, so it doesn't surprise me that it's not a permitted route.
 

JB_B

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I know that at least some Routeing Guide engines will pass a route as permitted if there are no intermediate fares that are more expensive, even if not strictly permitted. Most will allow a greater margin than 3 miles for the 'within 3 miles of the shortest route' rule, because such mileages are usually given in rounded formats (sometimes even to the nearest quarter-mile) which means there is inevitably a lot of scope for error.

I don't see any reason why travelling via Windsor & Eton shouldn't be a permitted route here, as there aren't any undercut intermediate fares AFAICT, but equally the TOCs are all about limiting permitted routes as far as possible nowadays, so it doesn't surprise me that it's not a permitted route.
I agree - it should be a permitted route.

The rail legs for the journey come in at 3.38 miles over the shortest route by rail so I guess that margin may indeed account for this behaviour.
 

35B

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I agree - it should be a permitted route.

The rail legs for the journey come in at 3.38 miles over the shortest route by rail so I guess that margin may indeed account for this behaviour.
Sorry, I don't understand why this "should" be valid. It's 10 miles further than the shortest route, over 3 miles longer than the alternative valid route with a doubleback, and a significant detour by whatever route?
 

35B

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Where would that be? Reading-Slough-Windsor-Staines-Waterloo doesn't have any double back, does it? Or have I misunderstood what's under discussion?
10 miles longer than Reading - Paddington, over 3 miles longer than via Virginia Water, and a double back if compared to that latter route.
 

JB_B

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Sorry, I don't understand why this "should" be valid. It's 10 miles further than the shortest route, over 3 miles longer than the alternative valid route with a doubleback, and a significant detour by whatever route?

By "should be" I just mean that it's not an unreasonable route.

It's nowhere near 10 miles longer than the shortest route from Waterloo to Reading (which is the relevant comparison).

No station is passed through twice so where is the doubleback?
 
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35B

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That's not the route being suggested. Change the first Staines to a Slough.
Thanks. In which case my first point applies - this is 10 miles out of the way on a 35 mile journey, and I'm struggling to cope with the idea that such a journey "must be" permitted.
 

JB_B

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Thanks. In which case my first point applies - this is 10 miles out of the way on a 35 mile journey, and I'm struggling to cope with the idea that such a journey "must be" permitted.
To recap, applying the normal public-facing routeing guide rules would suggest that going via Windsor is *not* valid. However, as journey planners will offer this route (without multiple tickets) it is currently valid just by virtue of that fact.

The OP is travelling from Waterloo. As an example, Waterloo to Reading via Chertsey is a perfectly valid route and is 46.5 miles by rail. The OP's intended journey via Windsor covers less than 47.5 miles by rail.

No one has claimed that it "must be" permitted - I've suggested that it's not unreasonable - it's fine if you disagree.
 

John @ home

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My calculation is that the shortest available route from London Waterloo to Reading is 43 miles 32 chains via Staines and Wokingham. There is a shorter route via Kensington Olympia, but no passenger trains travel by that route in the current timetable.

The route from London Waterloo to Reading via Windsor is:
  • London Waterloo - Windsor & Eton Riverside: 25 miles 49 chains.
  • Walk Windsor & Eton Riverside - Windsor & Eton Central. This walk is deemed to be of zero length.
  • Windsor & Eton Central - Slough: 2 miles 63 chains.
  • Slough - Reading: 17 miles 44 chains.
  • Total: 45 miles 76 chains
The route via Windsor is not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route over which a passenger railway service operates. It is therefore a permitted route.
 
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JB_B

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That's interesting, John - this highlights the difference between the way journey planners work compared to the public-facing routeing guide.

As far as I know, journey planners will use the route via Kensington Olympia as the shortest route basis even though it clearly doesn't meet the "over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates" test on the Olympia to Acton Main Line leg.

I'm also seeing somewhat different distances - I think that's largely because the RG data gives Waterloo to Vauxhall as 2.78 miles ~= 2m62ch vice 1m30ch in real life. That's (yet another) anomaly/error in the electronic routeing guide distance data.
 

David Goddard

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Interesting one this, and worth knowing for a stop at Windsor on the way back from London.
Using one of the TOC websites, I have successfully called up itineraries for:
Reading - Waterloo via Slough, Windsor (walk) and Staines
Earley - Paddington via Staines, Windsor (walk) and Slough
And because they pass through there, both show as valid with the Route Staines (as opposed to Any permitted) ticket.
I always print and take an itinerary for a trip which might be questioned, and then have no issues.
 

hkstudent

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Interesting one this, and worth knowing for a stop at Windsor on the way back from London.
Using one of the TOC websites, I have successfully called up itineraries for:
Reading - Waterloo via Slough, Windsor (walk) and Staines
Earley - Paddington via Staines, Windsor (walk) and Slough
And because they pass through there, both show as valid with the Route Staines (as opposed to Any permitted) ticket.
I always print and take an itinerary for a trip which might be questioned, and then have no issues.
Yeah, the railway network near London is a little complicated, which makes some permitted routes be not very obvious...
 

Indigo2

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both show as valid with the Route Staines (as opposed to Any permitted) ticket.
Maybe worth mentioning that an Any Permitted fare is also valid over a not-normally-permitted route when a cheaper route-specfic fare with the same ticket type (in this case Via Staines) is valid.
 

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