London Zonal Fares (FCC)

[dan_atki]

Just been looking at Avantix Traveller for the best part of half an hour trying to figure out what is going on with Central London FCC fares.

Say I wanted to travel from Waterloo East to St Pancras International via London Bridge (not a completely stupid journey as it is one I will soon wish to undertake - with luggage it is much easier this way than the Tube).

So what ticket do I buy? WAE-STP? Nope, because no such ticket exists... how odd. You can't try telling me that I'm not the only one who uses such a flow (OK, admittedly not many people will want a ticket starting at WAE and finishing at STP but still). Next I try Clapham Junction to St Pancras (as I'll be coming up the SWML) and oooo there's a fare for it! On further inspection it says 'To: London Terminals'. Wait a sec, that ticket is NOT valid for the journey I wish to undertake :? Why is Avantix telling me about it?

I wonder, if in the off chance, there may be a CLJ to London Thameslink ticket but no. OK fair enough, but wait - none of the FCC served stations south of London Bridge even have a London Thameslink ticket according to Avantix :? So what is going on? Fair enough I don't expect there to be fares set between every pair of London Terminals but I'd at least have thought STP (with its Eurostar terminal too) would be one to have fares to WAE (thinking about it, if you'd been on planet Mars and then went to Waterloo for your Eurostar to find it was at STP instead, then you'd have to buy a ticket for the flow I wish to use - if we pretend, for one moment, that London Underground does not exist).

I type St Pancras in to see if there is any other 'station' on Avantix I may have missed. There is - 'ST PANCRAS FCC' oddly enough with the King's Cross Thameslink 3 letter code KCM. Even then, with a multitude of stations in from (even trying Vauxhall) I still get the ticket will be issued to 'London Terminals'. Now, in fairness, I could attempt to buy this ticket and be issued with one to London Terminals, unaware it is not valid between City Thameslink and St Pancras and argue with whoever might attempt to tell me otherwise but that isn't the point I wish to make here.

Clapham Junction to St Pancras SDS is showing as £2.30 for a zone 2-1 journey. Oh wait a minute, I should be able to have a ticket from Clapham to West Hampstead (zones 2-1-2 on this route and should, therefore be the same price). Sadly though, there is not a route 'LONDON NOT UND' (the 'Not London' is £3.00 and the '+Any Permitted' is £4.10) which would be the route I need.

Looking further down the SWML, I see that Earlsfield and Wimbledon to St Pancras are both actually issued as 'To London St Pancrs' so why not CLJ or WAE? Strikes me as a very odd situation and I am aware that from the south, tickets must be issued as 'To St Pancras' (or London Thameslink) to be valid there.

If I was wanting the ticket from WAE to STP via LBG, it seems to me I'd need two tickets: WAE to LBG, and LBG to STP (each £1.90). Alternatively the Earlsfield to STP is £2.90 (validity assumed due to presumed shortest route being used).

Now I have a question, what SDS (or combination of SDSs) is offered on Ticket Issueing Systems when you input the following query (for those who have access to a TIS and can check):

From: London Waterloo East (WAE)
To: London St Pancras (STP)
Via: London Bridge (LBG)

and what is the total cost given for this journey? I have the mindset (be it right or wrong) that I should only pay £1.90 for such a journey (completely within zone 1) and it is not my fault that there is no fare for the journey.

It should be of note that NXEC cannot find any fares at all for either WAE-STP or WAE-STP via LBG...

Thanks.

 

[westcoaster]

have you tried a boundry zone 1 to st pancras

 

[dan_atki]

There isn't a Boundary Zone 1 as these are only ever used in conjunction with travelcards (there isn't a zone 1 only travelcard). Even on Boundary Zone 2 as STP is in boundary this doesn't work.

 

[westcoaster]

try the code civ or london international

 

[dan_atki]

That also shows up nothing and I believe for tickets to be issued to there you need to show Eurostar tickets anyway.

 

[DavyCrocket]

Surely it would be £4 (or £1.50 on Oyster).

The route you prescribed allow for LU tickets to be used (and in the case of FCC in that area, are the same).

I don't know if you can buy such a ticket from a NR machine, but a tube station will do your £4 one.

 

[dan_atki]

Overground fares in the zones are different to underground ones and are generally cheaper than the equivalent underground fare.

For example, I can buy a London Waterloo to London Victoria route Clapham Junction Anytime Day Single for £2.30 compared to the £4 on the Tube (and this is even setting foot into zone 2 as well).

The point I am making is that Avantix is not coming up with anything to give to me for a valid journey* (i.e. one that isn't completely ridiculous) - what ticket(s) will I be presented with should I purchase this (again, let's pretend London Underground does not exist - I do not need to use it for this journey and nor do I want to use it for this journey)?

I should not be issued a ticket to 'Zone U1 Londn' as my journey does not have any leg on LU and is not completely covered by interavailability of tickets (no arrangement for WAE-LBG), so this ticket is effectively invalid for my route. As is the LU single equivalent (in effect the same ticket).

*Then again it doesn't for things like Patchway to Yate either (this is found to be a general ticketing problem though rather than an error in Avantix).

 

[glynn80]

The FRPP states the following:

From the South, tickets need to be issued to the specific station to travel to London St. Pancras International or Farringdon. For City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge, and Elephant & Castle, tickets to ‘LONDON TERMINALS’ or to the specific named station are valid.

So I'd suggest a Clapham Junction to London Terminals (and thus use that to City Thameslink as it states is valid) and then a City Thameslink to St Pancras Intl.

 

[dan_atki]

From the South, tickets need to be issued to the specific station to travel to London St. Pancras International or Farringdon.

But this ticket does not exist! I admit that I'm not starting my journey at an FCC station but why are the majority of stations put into Avantix from the SWML telling me that the ticket would be issued to London Terminals when this is not valid!?

Let's have a little look for all stations on the SWML.
All destinations are 'London St Pancrs' and we'll see what the destination on the ticket is:
Waterloo/Vauxhall - ticket does not exist
Queenstown Road/Clapham Junction - issued to London Terminals
Earlsfield to Surbiton - issued to London St Pancrs
Esher to Weymouth - issued to London Terminals

Someone please explain to me what is going on and why I can only get a ticket issued to London St Pancras from zone 3! Why are there anomolies WAT-CLJ?

You are correct that I could buy a CLJ-CTK and a CTK-STP but that's even more expensive (£4.20) than my own suggestion of WAE-LBG and LBG-STP (£3.80) which is, in itself, paying twice for a continuous zonal journey (so should be £1.90) - sort of on a par with my say Barbican to Bank with LU. Have to buy a ticket Barbican to Moorgate/Liverpool Street and then another to Bank because the through ticket doesn't exist on the system of zonal fares (this is not true but just an analogy to demonstrate my point). The cheapest ticket for my journey is still Earlsfield to St Pancras (£2.90).

If ATOC want a zonal fare structure in London then they should at least have the decency to organise it properly. It should not be hard to have all pairs of stations put into the system or if it really is that hard then we need a system like LU so the tickets are just issued to a zone rather than a destination (I admit that in some cases that will cause problems though).

 

[glynn80]

You are correct that I could buy a CLJ-CTK and a CTK-STP but that's even more expensive (£4.20) than my own suggestion of WAE-LBG and LBG-STP (£3.80) which is, in itself, paying twice for a continuous zonal journey (so should be £1.90) - sort of on a par with my say Barbican to Bank with LU. Have to buy a ticket Barbican to Moorgate/Liverpool Street and then another to Bank because the through ticket doesn't exist on the system of zonal fares (this is not true but just an analogy to demonstrate my point). The cheapest ticket for my journey is still Earlsfield to St Pancras (£2.90).

The reason its more expensive is because the extra £0.40 gives you travel between CLJ and WAT as well. I think your best to stick with the Earlsfield ticket as all the search I have found doesn't reveal any cheaper tickets, depends where exactly though your travelling in from!

 

[dan_atki]

I think your best to stick with the Earlsfield ticket as all the search I have found doesn't reveal any cheaper tickets, depends where exactly though your travelling in from!

I know that's the cheapest that is appearing but I want to know what Fujitsu STAR (or any other TIS for that matter) throws up when you input WAE-STP via LBG. Theoretically by the zonal structure I should only ever pay £1.90 for this journey (and yes, I know I keep going on about that ).

At the end of the day it is nothing to do with the cost* but more me trying to understand what is going on with the fares (hence why I want to know what STAR says as I'm fast learning not to take anything Avantix Traveller tells me as the truth - then again maybe it isn't just Avantix but a general ticketing problem which needs to be sorted out).

Now, we both know that any customer who presents themself at Waterloo's ticket office asking for a single to St Pancras will either:
1) be told to use the Tube
2) after being told 1) and saying they are travelling overground via London Bridge will more than likely be issued the 2 tickets splitting at LBG as that would appear to be the cheapest option with Waterloo as the start and St Pancras as the end stations. They will not issue the Earlsfield to St Pancras ticket as it is not what the customer asked for (despite it being just as valid, yet cheaper).

I don't think it really matters where I am travelling from to be honest (nor where I am going to). I have a ticket into Waterloo (from outside the zones) and one out of St Pancras (to outside the zones). The ticket can have any route and stations on it as long as it is valid WAE-LBG-STP. Is it fair to say the closest to £1.90 this is going is £2.90 then? Hardly a simple zonal structure is it... but then again when is anything with ATOC simple.

I think they need to be contacted about VXH, CHX, and WAE fares to FCC stations STP-BFR. Going via WAE and LBG is not illogical in any sense of the word and these fares should exist. I also don't understand why zone 2 stations and those out of zones have the destination as London Terminals when the ticket is not valid for the entire journey.

* I am putting myself in the shoes of a passenger who is standing at a ticket office window furiously demanding why a simple zone 1 single for £1.90 cannot be purchased for this journey, just doing it on here where I'm more likely to get an acceptable answer and not so furiously.

 

[John @ home]

If ATOC want a zonal fare structure in London then they should at least have the decency to organise it properly.

From what I remember, it was not ATOC who "wanted" a zonal fare system, but the (previous) Mayor of London. But ATOC did sign up to the concept, and money changed hands, so I think they can be forced to implement it properly.

First, I would ask ATOC why their zonal fares system has not been implemented fully and ask them to put things right. You could quote the leaflet "Your guide to zonal fares". In response to the question "What are the National Rail London Zonal Fares?", it quotes fares for "Journeys between any two National Rail Stations". In the version I have, "Valid until December 2007", for "Travel within Zone 1" it quotes an adult single of £1.80 for "Journeys between any two National Rail Stations". No doubt £1.90 is the 2008 price.

Second, I would ask Transport for London for a copy of the agreement with ATOC on zonal fares.

John

 

[dan_atki]

Ah ha, thanks for that John!

Sure I have the same leaflet floating about somewhere so it may be worth writing to them then if they have said 'any two National Rail stations'. OK, in some cases it is unreasonable where the journey cannot reasonably be completed via National Rail but again their wording is silly as it was with simplification...

 

[John @ home]

I have a ticket into Waterloo (from outside the zones) and one out of St Pancras (to outside the zones).

Subject to any route restriction printed on it, if the ticket into Waterloo is issued to "London Terminals" you can use it to City Thameslink via Waterloo East and London Bridge.

... and then use a £1.90 single from London Bridge or Blackfriars or City Thameslink to St Pancras.

John

 

[dan_atki]

That is a good point actually but I'm afraid I should have said 'pass' rather than 'ticket' - my mistake.

 

[glynn80]

I don't think it really matters where I am travelling from to be honest (nor where I am going to). I have a ticket into Waterloo (from outside the zones) and one out of St Pancras (to outside the zones). The ticket can have any route and stations on it as long as it is valid WAE-LBG-STP. Is it fair to say the closest to £1.90 this is going is £2.90 then? Hardly a simple zonal structure is it... but then again when is anything with ATOC simple.

I think they need to be contacted about VXH, CHX, and WAE fares to FCC stations STP-BFR. Going via WAE and LBG is not illogical in any sense of the word and these fares should exist. I also don't understand why zone 2 stations and those out of zones have the destination as London Terminals when the ticket is not valid for the entire journey.

* I am putting myself in the shoes of a passenger who is standing at a ticket office window furiously demanding why a simple zone 1 single for £1.90 cannot be purchased for this journey, just doing it on here where I'm more likely to get an acceptable answer and not so furiously.

I was only asking where you were coming from to see if that station had a through fare to STP. It could be another issue where there just isn't through fares. Many London Terminals don't have fares between I'm sure you already know, these flows are not a sensible move for operators to have as they would often have long routeings making them unviable or create fares anomalies. While this journey is not as long it is a little wierd, going south to go back north when a London Underground journey would be easily be the simpliest option (such as cross-London transfers normally are also). John@home has hit the nail on the head with his comments there that your ticket into Waterloo will thus be valid for you to use to City Thameslink (as stated in the FRPP) and then you could purchase your ticket for £1.90 the price you wanted.

 

[dan_atki]

I was only asking where you were coming from to see if that station had a through fare to STP. It could be another issue where there just isn't through fares. Many London Terminals don't have fares between I'm sure you already know, these flows are not a sensible move for operators to have as they would often have long routeings making them unviable or create fares anomalies. While this journey is not as long it is a little wierd, going south to go back north when a London Underground journey would be easily be the simpliest option (such as cross-London transfers normally are also). John@home has hit the nail on the head with his comments there that your ticket into Waterloo will thus be valid for you to use to City Thameslink (as stated in the FRPP) and then you could purchase your ticket for £1.90 the price you wanted.

All through fares from out of zones SWML stations to London St Pancras are issued as 'To London Terminals' as stated above which is an issue to be raised with ATOC. Say I am not starting my journey anywhere other than Waterloo East nor finishing anywhere other than St Pancras though (the reason I am asking this flow is because of an EMT/SWT pass being held and the need to get from SWT to EMT so I am covered no further than Waterloo anyway).

I disagree the journey is weird though. With luggage this is a much better route to use than using LU. There is a lift at WAT/WAE, a level subway, a slope down to the platform, a cross platform interchange at LBG (providing the correct train is used - otherwise slopes), and a lift at STP. With LU, it is 2/3 escalators, some stairs, a cross platform interchange, an escalator and some more stairs - less than ideal.

By your reckoning that'd make Waterloo to Victoria weird too - going out to Clapham just to come back in - yet the ticket exists for you to do that :? How hard can it be to have a 'London Waterloo East to London St Pancras Route London Bridge*'?

* other possible 15 letter routeings for the ticket could be:
'LBridge Not Und', 'L Bridge Not LU', 'London Not Und', 'Natnl Rail Only', or something equally simple.

As I've said above - the issue (for me anyway) is not the cost of the ticket and getting it as cheap as possible but more of why this ticket does not exist when the journey can be reasonably completed on NR (so what is issued instead for people wanting to do this journey?) and why other stations have the ticket issued to London Terminals which is odd given the station is used for Eurostar (although I guess London Intl(CIV) will be used for these sorts of journeys).


But rather than go around in circles discussing this issue, what does a TIS say when this journey is inputted? No fares? £3.80? Something else?

 

[glynn80]

All through fares from out of zones SWML stations to London St Pancras are issued as 'To London Terminals' as stated above which is an issue to be raised with ATOC. Say I am not starting my journey anywhere other than Waterloo East nor finishing anywhere other than St Pancras though (the reason I am asking this flow is because of an EMT/SWT pass being held and the need to get from SWT to EMT so I am covered no further than Waterloo anyway).

I disagree the journey is weird though. With luggage this is a much better route to use than using LU. There is a lift at WAT/WAE, a level subway, a slope down to the platform, a cross platform interchange at LBG (providing the correct train is used - otherwise slopes), and a lift at STP. With LU, it is 2/3 escalators, some stairs, a cross platform interchange, an escalator and some more stairs - less than ideal.

By your reckoning that'd make Waterloo to Victoria weird too - going out to Clapham just to come back in - yet the ticket exists for you to do that :? How hard can it be to have a 'London Waterloo East to London St Pancras Route London Bridge*'?

* other possible 15 letter routeings for the ticket could be:
'LBridge Not Und', 'L Bridge Not LU', 'London Not Und', 'Natnl Rail Only', or something equally simple.

As I've said above - the issue (for me anyway) is not the cost of the ticket and getting it as cheap as possible but more of why this ticket does not exist when the journey can be reasonably completed on NR (so what is issued instead for people wanting to do this journey?) and why other stations have the ticket issued to London Terminals which is odd given the station is used for Eurostar (although I guess London Intl(CIV) will be used for these sorts of journeys).


But rather than go around in circles discussing this issue, what does a TIS say when this journey is inputted? No fares? £3.80? Something else?

I understand your frustration but I think you have to realise this journey isn't commonly made. I realise with luggage this can be a difficult journey but I still think most will travel on the tube rather than do the journey you state. How many people know it will be a cross platform transfer and think to go south and then north. Most I'm sure are directed to the tube and thus oblige or in extremes get a cab. Most also will not have a Priv such as yourself and would have a ticket into Waterloo already and thus could purchase a ticket at £1.90 unlike yourself. A passenger would have to have a priv be travelling with lots of luggage-not wanting to get the tube, know there is a cross-platform transfer and not mind the longer journey time for this to be an issue. I doubt a flow will be introduced specially for these people.

 

[dan_atki]

I understand your frustration but I think you have to realise this journey isn't commonly made. I realise with luggage this can be a difficult journey but I still think most will travel on the tube rather than do the journey you state. How many people know it will be a cross platform transfer and think to go south and then north. Most I'm sure are directed to the tube and thus oblige or in extremes get a cab. Most also will not have a Priv such as yourself and would have a ticket into Waterloo already and thus could purchase a ticket at £1.90 unlike yourself. A passenger would have to have a priv be travelling with lots of luggage-not wanting to get the tube, know there is a cross-platform transfer and not mind the longer journey time for this to be an issue. I doubt a flow will be introduced specially for these people.

I see your point but I want to know how the TOCs lose out by having the flow anyway (apart from not gaining the extra £1.90 by the split at LBG). Do they have to pay an amount to ATOC to have a flow? What rules govern that flows should not exist? Would I be correct in assuming that for origins Earlsfield to Surbiton, the expected interchange is at Wimbledon rather than Waterloo (something which only makes sense to a degree). Even here though, with a valid route via WAE fares should be set for intermediate stations on this route.

Going back to the Waterloo to Victoria via Clapham ticket, this can't be very well used with the Tube available too (with roughly the same journey time) and again this would only be used by people who'd be aware of such a ticket (so not very common either). This journey can be made disabled friendly with the cross platform interchange available at CLJ (assuming correct train used) so has its advantages over LU. I think at the end of the day it is all down to matter of preference as to whether someone'd use NR compared to LU and tickets should be available for people to do so and to have some competition. Or is that it? Have LU said that some flows cannot have fares set for them?

I think your example of pass + luggage + not wishing to use the Tube = minority argument is a tad far fetched as someone could, quite legitimately start a journey at WAT and end at STP (same as they can at VIC but here a ticket exists for you to do that). They might be claustrophobic so do not want to use the Tube - that in itself is reason enough to go via LBG in the same way I want to - pass and luggage aside.

 

[glynn80]

I see your point but I want to know how the TOCs lose out by having the flow anyway (apart from not gaining the extra £1.90 by the split at LBG). Do they have to pay an amount to ATOC to have a flow? What rules govern that flows should not exist? Would I be correct in assuming that for origins Earlsfield to Surbiton, the expected interchange is at Wimbledon rather than Waterloo (something which only makes sense to a degree). Even here though, with a valid route via WAE fares should be set for intermediate stations on this route.

Going back to the Waterloo to Victoria via Clapham ticket, this can't be very well used with the Tube available too (with roughly the same journey time) and again this would only be used by people who'd be aware of such a ticket (so not very common either). This journey can be made disabled friendly with the cross platform interchange available at CLJ (assuming correct train used) so has its advantages over LU. I think at the end of the day it is all down to matter of preference as to whether someone'd use NR compared to LU and tickets should be available for people to do so and to have some competition. Or is that it? Have LU said that some flows cannot have fares set for them?

I think your example of pass + luggage + not wishing to use the Tube = minority argument is a tad far fetched as someone could, quite legitimately start a journey at WAT and end at STP (same as they can at VIC but here a ticket exists for you to do that). They might be claustrophobic so do not want to use the Tube - that in itself is reason enough to go via LBG in the same way I want to - pass and luggage aside.

At the moment I'm trying to enchance my knowledge of ORCATS and other flow based systems but have not plowed through the documents I have yet. I'm not too sure who would set the fare, SET or FCC? If FCC set it then that would no doubt upset SET by undercutting their WAE to LDB fare and may not agree to introduce this flow (they would have to as this is a new flow not one necessary as stated in the TSA- to have a fare between every station in the country). If SET were to set it, what incentive do they have to undercut their own fare?

 

[John @ home]

I'm not too sure who would set the fare, SET or FCC?

Within London, Zonal Fares such as this are set by ATOC (code ATO in NFM 01). See, for example, Wimbledon - St Pancras route not Underground.

I think that the omission of these fares is an error, because ATOC's own leaflet Your guide to zonal fares shows fares for Journeys between any two National Rail Stations. (my emphasis)

John

 

[glynn80]

Within London, Zonal Fares such as this are set by ATOC (code ATO in NFM 01). See, for example, Wimbledon - St Pancras route not Underground.

I think that the omission of these fares is an error, because ATOC's own leaflet Your guide to zonal fares shows fares for Journeys between any two National Rail Stations. (my emphasis)

John

Ah is that what ATO stood for was wondering that.

I have just got the conclusive answer from the FRPP:

Rail Only Zonal Fares are NOT available for all point-to-point journeys. Where a through journey can only reasonably be made by using Underground (or DLR) services, the appropriate Train Tube Zonal Fare will only be available, e.g. Surbiton to Romford.

I am assuming that the statement in the leaflet is a large generalisation covering both TrainTube journeys and Rail Only journeys but without looking at it I couldn't confirm. But as I assumed if its reasonable to take LU they won't introduce a flow for it

 

[dan_atki]

I have just got the conclusive answer from the FRPP:

Rail Only Zonal Fares are NOT available for all point-to-point journeys. Where a through journey can only reasonably be made by using Underground (or DLR) services, the appropriate Train Tube Zonal Fare will only be available, e.g. Surbiton to Romford.

I have a problem with this because of the word I have highlighted in the quote from the Fares Manual - I still don't think that the journey via LBG is unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination (OK it might be a little weird for some people but certainly not unreasonable) and a route (completely in zone 1) exists for the journey - I'm with John on this and think it's an oversight by ATOC and I shall be getting in contact with them about this later for their take on things.

I am assuming that the statement in the leaflet is a large generalisation covering both TrainTube journeys and Rail Only journeys but without looking at it I couldn't confirm. But as I assumed if its reasonable to take LU they won't introduce a flow for it

AFAIK the leaflet is for rail only journeys and made for when the zonal fares system was implemented to describe the fares - there was a section on the National Rail website with the fares on at the time, but this has since been removed. I will be the first to admit that there are some journeys that can't reasonably be completed by National Rail (e.g. Paddington to Liverpool Street for instance) without going a bit around the houses but even with the tube for WAT/WAE to STP there is one change - just like with the route via London Bridge (which is even more useful if you are travelling further than STP).

One could even argue that Waterloo to Victoria is reasonable via Tube yet a ticket exists for the journey via Clapham...

 

[John @ home]

While this journey is not as long it is a little wierd, going south to go back north when a London Underground journey would be easily be the simpliest option

How many people know it will be a cross platform transfer and think to go south and then north.

But travelling from Waterloo East to London Bridge is not going south. London Bridge station is just over a mile east, and about 150 yards north, of Waterloo East station.

John

 

[glynn80]

But travelling from Waterloo East to London Bridge is not going south. London Bridge station is just over a mile east, and about 150 yards north, of Waterloo East station.

John

Ok if we want to nit-pick but the general gist was going in opposite directions coming into LDB but that probably isn't a reasonable arguement in the first place. I think this is a situation which will not change in the near future unless a large demand is made by passengers and ATOC deem the flow economically viable

 

[dan_atki]

ATOC deem the flow economically viable

I don't understand this point. Does it cost ATOC all that much to make a new fare at the next review in January to put in machines for people to purchase when they want it? It is being made to sound ATOC have to pay a substantial amount of money to 'support' a flow (however it may need to be supported). Is this truly the case? Not just a case of a new database record for machines to download which can be forgotten about until the zonal fares go up a year later (normally) then?

I appreciate ATOC will have to split up revenue to go to both SET and FCC but this, I assume, is a relatively easy issue once all the necessary data is in the system for the systems to do this automatically.

I will again go back to Waterloo - Victoria via Clapham. Now I have just checked something else too - there IS a Waterloo to Kensington Olympia (Not Underground) available. There is a Waterloo to Willesden Junction (Clapham Junction) available. There is a Waterloo to Harrow & Wealdstone (Not Underground) available. All these tickets have an origin of 'London Waterloo' printed on them.

You can't seriously tell me going via Clapham Junction is normal for these journeys - especially with Willesden and Harrow with a direct Bakerloo Line link available! Yet a ticket exists for people to do so...

I ask again, WHY can't ATOC have an extra fare available for obscure, but reasonable, journeys such as WAE-LBG-STP when all of these exist too up the WLL? There are even tickets available for Waterloo - Milton Keynes (Clapham Junction) and again for Rugby too!! Now the routes vary between CLJ and Not Und as you can see but all these tickets exist and have 'From: London Waterloo' printed on them.

How many people honestly go WAT-CLJ-RUG? (again needing a change at Watford and maybe Willesden too!). I think the answer is significantly less than WAT-LBG-STP.

An e-mail has been sent to ATOC regarding this issue and I'm waiting for a response. If it turns out it is due to 'economical viability' reasons then I shall request, under the FoI Act (via ORR/DfT if necessary), ticket sales for these flows for last year to see how many of them really are sold. I doubt it will come to that, however, as I honestly believe this is an oversight by ATOC more than anything else.

What is interesting to note, though, is that for these Waterloo - WLL/WCML stations there is only the one fare (via NR) and no Any Permitted or Underground fare is given.

 

[glynn80]

I don't understand this point. Does it cost ATOC all that much to make a new fare at the next review in January to put in machines for people to purchase when they want it? It is being made to sound ATOC have to pay a substantial amount of money to 'support' a flow (however it may need to be supported). Is this truly the case? Not just a case of a new database record for machines to download which can be forgotten about until the zonal fares go up a year later (normally) then?

I appreciate ATOC will have to split up revenue to go to both SET and FCC but this, I assume, is a relatively easy issue once all the necessary data is in the system for the systems to do this automatically.

I will again go back to Waterloo - Victoria via Clapham. Now I have just checked something else too - there IS a Waterloo to Kensington Olympia (Not Underground) available. There is a Waterloo to Willesden Junction (Clapham Junction) available. There is a Waterloo to Harrow & Wealdstone (Not Underground) available. All these tickets have an origin of 'London Waterloo' printed on them.

You can't seriously tell me going via Clapham Junction is normal for these journeys - especially with Willesden and Harrow with a direct Bakerloo Line link available! Yet a ticket exists for people to do so...

I ask again, WHY can't ATOC have an extra fare available for obscure, but reasonable, journeys such as WAE-LBG-STP when all of these exist too up the WLL? There are even tickets available for Waterloo - Milton Keynes (Clapham Junction) and again for Rugby too!! Now the routes vary between CLJ and Not Und as you can see but all these tickets exist and have 'From: London Waterloo' printed on them.

How many people honestly go WAT-CLJ-RUG? (again needing a change at Watford and maybe Willesden too!). I think the answer is significantly less than WAT-LBG-STP.

An e-mail has been sent to ATOC regarding this issue and I'm waiting for a response. If it turns out it is due to 'economical viability' reasons then I shall request, under the FoI Act (via ORR/DfT if necessary), ticket sales for these flows for last year to see how many of them really are sold. I doubt it will come to that, however, as I honestly believe this is an oversight by ATOC more than anything else.

What is interesting to note, though, is that for these Waterloo - WLL/WCML stations there is only the one fare (via NR) and no Any Permitted or Underground fare is given.

Under your principle there should be flows between all sets of stations regardless of how the operaters revenue is affected by the changes. The £1.90 fare you currently suggest would I no doubt assume become more popular than the exisiting £1.90 fare to London Bridge. People often purchase tickets that give them more validity but at the same price just in case. If this became well known then even just the few passengers that choose to make the journey SET (and to a smaller extent Southern) would have to give up revenue they previously would have got 100% of under ORCATS but will now only get approx. 50% (perhaps not even that high as majority of the journey is on FCC). I seriously doubt whether ATOC will be allowed by SET or Southern to introduce this fare which I'm almost certain ATOC will have to consult before introducing. SET as the "Lead Operator" will in my opinion object . New flows as you suggest are not as easy as you may think to introduce. First they must be submitted before the Ticketing & Settlement Scheme Council. If they agree RPCs, ORR and all affected parties MUST be consulted. I would also think LU would not be too happy with traffic being taken from them and may make a complaint through clauses I believe are located in the Through Ticketing (Non-Travelcard) Agreement which includes LU (under TTL).

Just out of interest which fares data would you ask for (as I have a similar pending FOI request) would it be for the flows which currently exist and thus you would be able to determine whether or not Waterloo to STP had any viability?

 

[dan_atki]

Under your principle there should be flows between all sets of stations regardless of how the operaters revenue is affected by the changes. The £1.90 fare you currently suggest would I no doubt assume become more popular than the exisiting £1.90 fare to London Bridge. People often purchase tickets that give them more validity but at the same price just in case. If this became well known then even just the few passengers that choose to make the journey SET (and to a smaller extent Southern) would have to give up revenue they previously would have got 100% of under ORCATS but will now only get approx. 50% (perhaps not even that high as majority of the journey is on FCC). I seriously doubt whether ATOC will be allowed by SET or Southern to introduce this fare which I'm almost certain ATOC will have to consult before introducing. SET as the "Lead Operator" will in my opinion object . New flows as you suggest are not as easy as you may think to introduce. First they must be submitted before the Ticketing & Settlement Scheme Council. If they agree RPCs, ORR and all affected parties MUST be consulted. I would also think LU would not be too happy with traffic being taken from them and may make a complaint through clauses I believe are located in the Through Ticketing (Non-Travelcard) Agreement which includes LU (under TTL).

Just out of interest which fares data would you ask for (as I have a similar pending FOI request) would it be for the flows which currently exist and thus you would be able to determine whether or not Waterloo to STP had any viability?

I guess that is one of the flaws of a zonal system of fares then - Silverlink managed to stray away from it and I wonder if the same exception could be made in these cases.

This revenue splitting concerns me slightly. Say I have a Surbiton to London Terminals ticket. Then I could, in practice, use that to City Thameslink via London Bridge. I would be using SWT+SET/SN+FCC for this journey, yet I'm guessing SWT would get 100% of the revenue? Is that fair for SET/SN/FCC? Every condition can't be taken into account (even with severe routeing guide flexibilities for really obscure, but valid routes in the north). The reason such 'small' anomalies exist is because they are hoping not many people will use them for some TOCs to take advantage of revenue - many people here will end their journey at WAT and only a small number will continue onto LBG/CHX/BFR/CTK - this I think is the reason such things do get through the system.

I can't honestly see people who are just going to London Bridge purchasing a ticket to STP 'just in case' as it costs the same amount. But Earlsfield to Waterloo (or London Terminals as is printed) is £2.90 SDS. Earlsfield to St Pancras is also £2.90 SDS - so the anomaly you mention already exists in the system as far as I'm concerned and with a few other stations towards Surbiton too. Maybe there is a way to flatten it out slightly but as I said it is a downfall of introducing the zonal fares structure. Joe Public doesn't care about where the revenue goes or how it is split up but wants convenience (and especially after so called 'simplification' I can't say I blame him wanting one ticket from WAT to STP route LBG).

I admit I'm being rather stubborn about this whole affair but I'm still yet to learn a valid reason as for the absence of this flow given the fact we have a zonal fares system - maybe that'd change with ATOC's reply.

The flows I'd ask for are all the ones from Waterloo to WLL and WCML mentioned above (maybe the whole list of stations between CLJ and RUG), also WAT-VIC, WAE-LBG, LBG-STP, Earlsfield (& stations to Surbiton) - St Pancras, and maybe a few others from the WAT and to the STP area I can't quite think of right now (if it comes to it and I do have to submit a request I'll send you the list of flows I've requested). I honestly think there isn't all that many people who buy a WAT-RUG ticket compared to those who'd want the same as me.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But rather than go around in circles discussing this issue, what does a TIS say when this journey is inputted? No fares? £3.80? Something else?

Skipped a load of this thread cos I got bored reading it, so if someone has already said then fine, but FASTIS says £4 (WAE to Zone U1) going above ground it would be cheaper to buy a ticket to London Bridge and a new ticket from there to St Pancras, although you would probably have to tell the ticket seller about it.

 

[dan_atki]

Thanks for that, so I will effectively be sold an underground zone 1 ticket (rather than an overground one) at a cost of over 100% more than it *should* be according to ATOC.

Although, it is cheaper to ask for two separate tickets or one from a zone 3 station... that makes a lot of sense in a 'zonal' structure. Now just a case of waiting for ATOCs response about this and obtaining some answers.